Reloading question about Titegroup and 38 Special

[Eli Apple Jack]

I'm pretty new to reloading and am using Titegroup for the first time for 38 Special. I've previously been using WST as my powder and that's all I have to compare the Titegroup to for my experience. I'm using a 130gr bullet and Federal 100 primers. I made three small batches of 3.1gr, 3.2gr, and 3.3gr of Titegroup, about 15 rounds each, and all were accurate and pretty low recoil. What I noticed that was the amount of smoke it produced got increasingly worse going from the 3.1 to the 3.3gr. It wasn't leaving unburned powder, but the indoor range I was in got really smoky by the time I finished my tests! Is this typical of Titegroup as a powder? Also, how much lower of a powder load can you go before having problems within unburned powder or accuracy issues?

[Whitey James]

Are you using lubed bullets or coated? Bullet lube can cause smoke. I load my 125gr 38's with 3.2gr or Titegroup and it burns very clean. The brass is clean and no significant fouling in the chambers/barrel. I powder coat my bullets so I don't have the issue of smoke.

Edited November 1 by Whitey James

[Eli Apple Jack]

4 minutes ago, Whitey James said:

Are you using lubed bullets or coated? Bullet lube can cause smoke. I load my 125gr 38's with 3.2gr or Titegroup and it burns very clean. The brass is clean and no significant fouling in the chambers/barrel. I powder coat my bullets so I don't have the issue of smoke.

Ok, yes I'm using the lubed bullets, for the first time too. I didn't realize that would be an issue, so that's probably what I'm seeing. The 3.1gr wasn't near as bad with the smoke so I may stick with that load or try a little lighter as well. 

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I use 3.0 gr of Titegroup with a 125 gr lubed bullet.  Works great and I've been using this recipe for 20 years.  Mild recoil but enough power to handle the occasional knock down target.  No need to carry "special" rounds for knock downs.  Use the same round in rifle and pistols.  

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 minute ago, Eli Apple Jack said:

I'm pretty new to reloading and am using Titegroup for the first time for 38 Special. I've previously been using WST as my powder and that's all I have to compare the Titegroup to for my experience. I'm using a 130gr bullet and Federal 100 primers. I made three small batches of 3.1gr, 3.2gr, and 3.3gr of Titegroup, about 15 rounds each, and all were accurate and pretty low recoil. What I noticed that was the amount of smoke it produced got increasingly worse going from the 3.1 to the 3.3gr. It wasn't leaving unburned powder, but the indoor range I was in got really smoky by the time I finished my tests! Is this typical of Titegroup as a powder? Also, how much lower of a powder load can you go before having problems within unburned powder or accuracy issues?

I've noticed more smoke with my Titegroup loads than previously with Clays.  We use 2.9 under a 125 TCFP bullet. for .38 special and 2.8 under a 100 TCFP bullet in .32 H&R Magnum with no unburnt powder.

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

I have tried Titegroup then switch to Red Dot and did notice a little more smoke with Titegroup when I shoot smokeless once in a while.  But it wasn't too bad and didn't obscure the targets.  Real BP is a whole new story, lots of smoke, but that's another story for another day.😎😁

 

If any of your sample loads works good for you, you've got a winner.  Go shoot and have fun.🤠

[Marshal Stone, SASS #53366]

Whan I was shooting Tite Group it was 3.0 gr. 125 gr Desperado Cowboy bullets with Federal magnum primers.

Used for both rifle and pistol. never had any problem with knockdowns, if I did my part.

 

Marshal Stone

[Rye Miles #13621]

I use 3.5 grs TiteGroup with a 125 gr bullet. I don’t notice much smoke! 

[Shawnee Hills]

3.2 gr. of Titegroup behind a 105 gr bullet here.  Small amount of unburnt powder but nothing to worry about.  Haven’t noticed much smoke. 
 

Also note that Titegroup is temperature sensitive.  A low charge in colder weather will retard the burn rate. 

Edited November 1 by Shawnee Hills
Add info

[Tracker Jack Daniels,58780]

I use 3.5 gr of Titegroup under a 105 gr bullet in my revolver, and 158 gr bullet in my rifle. Very mild recoil, no smoke, and will handle even tough knock downs.  I shoot a '92 rifle and it seems to only like a 158 gn rn bullet, so that is what I feed it.

[Whitey James]

9 minutes ago, Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 said:

I use 3.5 gr of Titegroup under a 105 gr bullet in my revolver, and 158 gr bullet in my rifle. Very mild recoil, no smoke, and will handle even tough knock downs.  I shoot a '92 rifle and it seems to only like a 158 gn rn bullet, so that is what I feed it.

My R92 likes a longer OAL too. I have loaded some very light 357's for the R92 and they run good. I bought a new Ruger/Marlin about 6 weeks ago and have been shooting it since because it will run the shorter 38's with no problems. The Rossi is now my backup

[Eli Apple Jack]

39 minutes ago, Whitey James said:

My R92 likes a longer OAL too. I have loaded some very light 357's for the R92 and they run good. I bought a new Ruger/Marlin about 6 weeks ago and have been shooting it since because it will run the shorter 38's with no problems. The Rossi is now my backup

I have some 357 brass that I can use, but I haven't ran into anyone that uses them. Would I use the same powder charge as the 38 Specials or would I have to go a little bigger due to the increased case capacity? That is, using the same bullet and primers.

[Eli Apple Jack]

3 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I use 3.5 grs TiteGroup with a 125 gr bullet. I don’t notice much smoke! 

Good to know. It's got to be the lubed bullets I'm using that's causing the smoke then. I have some coated ones I'll try it with and see if that makes the difference. 

[Eli Apple Jack]

3 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

I use 3.0 gr of Titegroup with a 125 gr lubed bullet.  Works great and I've been using this recipe for 20 years.  Mild recoil but enough power to handle the occasional knock down target.  No need to carry "special" rounds for knock downs.  Use the same round in rifle and pistols.  

That's what I'm looking for too. I'll have to go down to 3.0 and see how that feels. I like just a little recoil too. You get down to none and it just feels weird.

Edited November 2 by Eli Apple Jack

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

1 hour ago, Shawnee Hills said:

3.2 gr. of Titegroup behind a 105 gr bullet here.  Small amount of unburnt powder but nothing to worry about.  Haven’t noticed much smoke. 
 

Also note that Titegroup is temperature sensitive.  A low charge in colder weather will retard the burn rate. 

I have been using 3.2 grains TiteGroup behind 125 grain Cheycast TC in pistol and 140-147 TC in the rifle for near 14 years. Use Federal 200 SP magnum primers. have never noticed any issues with temperature causing light rounds or squibs. Certainly did with Clays which is what I started with. Western Colorado shooter so below freezing temperatures not uncommon. How cold are we talking about where you are?

Regards

    

Gateway kid

[Shawnee Hills]

55 minutes ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

temperature causing light rounds or squibs.

It’s not quite that sensitive but I have noticed lower report and little more unburnt powder in colder temps.  Our temperature range typically runs from 100 - negative but I don’t bother shooting in those extremes.  Loading shorter than 1.500”, adding more powder, and/or pushing a heavier bullet would likely help but I prefer the 105s.
 

If you search the web you can find more info on the temperature sensitivity of Titegroup. 

[Assassin]

11 minutes ago, Shawnee Hills said:

It’s not quite that sensitive but I have noticed lower report and little more unburnt powder in colder temps.  Our temperature range typically runs from 100 - negative but I don’t bother shooting in those extremes.  Loading shorter than 1.500”, adding more powder, and/or pushing a heavier bullet would likely help but I prefer the 105s.
 

If you search the web you can find more info on the temperature sensitivity of Titegroup. 

If you use nickel plated brass it will not expand at the same rate as regular brass. Two unlike metals fighting each other do not like light loads. 

[Whitey James]

1 hour ago, Eli Apple Jack said:

I have some 357 brass that I can use, but I haven't ran into anyone that uses them. Would I use the same powder charge as the 38 Specials or would I have to go a little bigger due to the increased case capacity? That is, using the same bullet and primers.

If you are only shooting these with your rifle then recoil is not as important, I would go with the minimum load data for the 357.

https://hodgdonreloading.com/rldc/

[Badlands Bob #61228]

16 hours ago, Shawnee Hills said:

It’s not quite that sensitive but I have noticed lower report and little more unburnt powder in colder temps.  Our temperature range typically runs from 100 - negative but I don’t bother shooting in those extremes.  Loading shorter than 1.500”, adding more powder, and/or pushing a heavier bullet would likely help but I prefer the 105s.
 

If you search the web you can find more info on the temperature sensitivity of Titegroup. 

I never gave the temperature sensitivity of Titegroup any concern.  If it's cold enough to affect the burn rate, it's too cold for Badlands Bob to be shooting. 

[Max Payne]

Ophelia Payne & I have been shooting 2.7 grns of TG with 105's & 125's (coated) for 10 years. Meets the power factor & shoots GREAT! These work with knockdowns also, but we like the added security of using 3.2 grns & .158s for those.

[Too Tall Bob]

Titegroup - if you think you are having issues with cold affecting your ammo, put them inside your jacket or vest for a few minutes prior to shooting. Or - increase your load by 1/10th or 2/10ths of a grain. Tighten up your crimp just a touch too. 

Edited November 3 by Too Tall Bob

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Yes, I have noticed slightly more smoke from Titegroup than from Clay's, Red Dot, and/or other propellants.  

 

Just an aside:

 

I don't get the idea that anybody is paying attention or caring about meeting CAS power factors these days, at least Ive never seen ammo checked at matches.  But I do chrono my loads and try to keep them SASS legal.

 

 I load Titegroup in .38sp, with 130gn bullets in my rifle, and 105gn in pistols.  With the 130gn rifle rounds, I could not get up to required power factor until I loaded at least 3.5gn. (28" barrel).  So the O.P.s  3.2gn might be a little on the light side.

 

Also, loading Titegroup too lightly to fully expand the case and seal the chamber causes excessive dirty blowby to  accumulate on the carrier and under the top extractor.  

 

Just my own observations.  I'd be curious if others have had different experience.  

 

 

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

5 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Yes, I have noticed slightly more smoke from Titegroup than from Clay's, Red Dot, and/or other propellants.  

 

Just an aside:

 

I don't get the idea that anybody is paying attention or caring about meeting CAS power factors these days, at least Ive never seen ammo checked at matches.  But I do chrono my loads and try to keep them SASS legal.

 

 I load Titegroup in .38sp, with 130gn bullets in my rifle, and 105gn in pistols.  With the 130gn rifle rounds, I could not get up to required power factor until I loaded at least 3.5gn. (28" barrel).  So the O.P.s  3.2gn might be a little on the light side.

 

Also, loading Titegroup too lightly to fully expand the case and seal the chamber causes excessive dirty blowby to  accumulate on the carrier and under the top extractor.  

 

Just my own observations.  I'd be curious if others have had different experience.  

 

 

According to Hodgdon's Reloading Data Center 3.2gr of Titegroup with a 125gr bullet gives you 856 fps. = 107 power factor.  

Or a 90gr with 3.0 = 755 fps which equals 67.9 power factor.

Minimum required power factor is 60.

[Shawnee Hills]

Never had a problem exceeding the PF even when testing 2.9 gr. behind a 105 out of the revolvers.  The amount of unburnt powder in cooler temps was unacceptable, however.  
 

Blowback will normally be an issue with most light loads.  Maintenance cannot be ignored for long. 
 

Agree that PF doesn’t seem to be of much concern during matches.  It’d be good to pull the chrono out on occasion and spend the extra time checking . . . especially for major events.  Doing that regularly should help cut down on on the risk of squibs as well. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

Iron Cowboy shooting 125 grain 2.9 of Titegroup in .38s yesterday. A fair amount of smoke.

 

 

[Shawnee Hills]

51 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Iron Cowboy shooting 125 grain 2.9 of Titegroup in .38s yesterday. A fair amount of smoke.

 

 

Is that with coated or uncoated bullets?  Never noticed that much smoke with coated. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

Those are not coated.

[Rye Miles #13621]

It has a lot to do with the sun shining in from the left. I've seen smoke like that from a lot of different powders in the sun. Just MHO.

Nice shooting BTW!

[Captain Bill Burt]

15 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

It has a lot to do with the sun shining in from the left. I've seen smoke like that from a lot of different powders in the sun. Just MHO.

Nice shooting BTW!

The angle of the sun definitely matters when it comes to smoke! I thought he did well on his first match after shoulder surgery (1st overall).

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Just popping in to thank Shawnee hills for his response. Obviously we have had some different experiences. Doubt I will be searching the web for additional information as more than a decade of experience with my loads says they are fine as is. Currently pistol at 3.2 grain TiteGroup behind 125 grain coated Cheycast and rifle at 3.2 grain behind a 140 grain Cheycast with a federal 200 gm magnum primer produced 750 fps, 93 PF and 800 fps, 112 PF respectively. No unburnt powder and cases no dirtier than unique, clays, Clay dot, bullseye or 231 all of which I have tried in the past. Maybe the magnum primer? Those are much more common around here than just about anything else. Trail boss, (another I have tried), now there is a dirty (and expensive) powder until you walk away from lighter loads. Tried to lighten up from their recommended method of calculating quantity, and shot to shot report/recoil was noticeably different regardless of temperature. Might have experimented more but price got ridiculous and dropped it. Coldest temperature I have shot in was -6 degrees F and no difference in performance compared to our 90-110 degree summers. Hopefully we can get together someday and shoot a match.

All the best

    

Gateway Kid

[Shawnee Hills]

3 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Just popping in to thank Shawnee hills for his response. Obviously we have had some different experiences. Doubt I will be searching the web for additional information as more than a decade of experience with my loads says they are fine as is. Currently pistol at 3.2 grain TiteGroup behind 125 grain coated Cheycast and rifle at 3.2 grain behind a 140 grain Cheycast with a federal 200 gm magnum primer produced 750 fps, 93 PF and 800 fps, 112 PF respectively. No unburnt powder and cases no dirtier than unique, clays, Clay dot, bullseye or 231 all of which I have tried in the past. Maybe the magnum primer? Those are much more common around here than just about anything else. Trail boss, (another I have tried), now there is a dirty (and expensive) powder until you walk away from lighter loads. Tried to lighten up from their recommended method of calculating quantity, and shot to shot report/recoil was noticeably different regardless of temperature. Might have experimented more but price got ridiculous and dropped it. Coldest temperature I have shot in was -6 degrees F and no difference in performance compared to our 90-110 degree summers. Hopefully we can get together someday and shoot a match.

All the best

    

Gateway Kid

Thanks for the information, GK.  Been wondering why you were having such a different experience but had an "Ah-ha!" moment while reading your post.  I'm betting our experiences would match if I switched to heavier bullets and used a magnum primer.  I'm going to live with a little bit of unburnt powder, however, because I really like the 105s and still have 50K standard primers in stock.  If I intend to shoot a match in cold weather, I just keep the ammo in a warm place until needed.

 

In terms of the smoke that some are seeing, it appears that it might be the result of using lubed bullets.  I've always noticed a big difference in smoke between shooting lubed bullets vs coated.  Burning lube contributes a lot to the cloud.