Dr. Zook Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 (edited) I promulgated this on the CMP forum and wanted to throw it out there to see if anyone had better ideas or if this was already thought of... Some people have been pushing the CMP to put a west store out there for us to go to instead of Alabama or Ohio. They had something up in Utah but that fell thru (CEO Update: October 2024 - Civilian Marksmanship Program) -- not trying to ruffle any feathers --- just linking the comments from the CMP CEO for people to read. what do you think would be a possible solution to a West Store? Ben Avery has existing A/C buildings, land (acres with AZGFD supervision), pre-existing trap/skeet. In a Perfect world: Maybe partner with AZGFD (Ben Avery -1k long/100-200yd short range/ pistol silhouette ) plus the existing trap/skeet area and also approach S.A.S.S. (End of Trail) as well as CowTown (more protected shooting land) Mgmt. to try to really make a large protected shooting area (acres of it) ----considering the $7B master planned community going in around those new chip plants on the L303/I-17 --- its only a matter of time til someone cries 'WOLF" and there goes another wonderful range off into the sunset... kinda like what they were trying to do to Joe Foss range in buckeye to be a LE only range no civilians... not trying the beat the hornets nest with a bat --- just some constructive talk-suggestions from our many talented members..... Edited November 1 by Dr. Zook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 Are you wanting to save "our" ranges... or just AZ ranges? Lets face it, with urban sprawl and more (much more) folks coming into this country, even legally protected range land will come under attacks to restrict or remove them altogether and as the political climate (and press) are increasingly viewing shooters and shooting ranges as bad things, it may only be a matter of time. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 I think a CMP store in Phoenix would be awesome but I would be broke all the time. I want to be in CMP games, but the closest monthly matches to Prescott are held in Lake Havasu which is 4.5 hours away and miserably hot half the year. A partnership with Gunsite in Paulden, AZ would also be nice and cooler than Phoenix. They have plenty of land and a wide variety of ranges. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 Save our ranges? Start by voting for the right candidates. 10 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Zook Posted November 1 Author Share Posted November 1 (edited) @The Rainmaker, SASS #11631, your absolutely correct and I could have worded the topic better. I'd like to see Ben Avery be saved by partnership with our local SASS groups, CowTown and if the CMP would consider putting their west store location there would hopefully provide a strong foundation against closure + infrastructure is already there and multiple disciplines use the facility year round. The Gunsite range up in Paulden is another great idea @Cholla. Maybe what might work for any range/anywhere is for our respective special interest shooting groups (SASS, CMP) national groups & local (HP/recreational shooters) clubs /ranges band together to unite against encroachment/closure? Edited November 1 by Dr. Zook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 Local/State politicians that support them staying open and maybe local constabularies using them regularly would help. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilli GaHoot Galoot Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 After years of watching ranges closed I have come to the conclusion the only way to save a range is to buy enough of the land around the range to keep anyone that might want to close the range far, far away. Because (and I mean this with no disrespect) people are dumb and will move someplace and then complain bitterly about the stuff that was there long before them. Case in point, years ago I was talking to a homeowner that was selling his golf course home that he bought less than a year before partially because of the airplane noises but mostly because he was very mad that his neighbors started icing him out when he complained to them about the noise "Just because they used to work there before they retired" His home was about where the red "X" is, any guesses who his neighbors used to work for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Zook Posted November 1 Author Share Posted November 1 @Dilli GaHoot Galoot --- that base has been there since 1941 --- i'm at least 8 miles east of the base --- hear the sound of freedom every morning, especially if overcast... In 1940, the U.S. Army sent a representative to Arizona to choose a site for a U.S. Army Air Corps training field for advanced training in conventional fighter aircraft. The city of Phoenix bought 1,440 acres (5.8 km2) of land, which they leased to the government at $1 a year effective 24 March 1941. [data from wikipedia] Could you imagine if they hadn't closed the Thunderbird training field #1 in Glendale. Thunderbird Field was a military airfield in Glendale, Arizona, used for contract primary flight training of Allied pilots during World War II. Created in part by actor James Stewart,[1] the field became part of the United States Army Air Forces training establishment just prior to American entry into the war and was re-designated Thunderbird Field #1 after establishment of Thunderbird Field#2 at nearby Scottsdale, on 22 June 1942. Thunderbird # 1 is located southeast of the intersection of West Greenway Road & North 59th Avenue in Glendale, Arizona. [data from wikipedia] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilli GaHoot Galoot Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 2 minutes ago, Dr. Zook said: that base has been there since 1941 --- i'm at least 8 miles east of the base --- hear the sound of freedom every morning, especially if overcast... And yet some recently retired middle management yutz thought they should respect 'quiet hours' so he could enjoy his golf and patio . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 (edited) We get the same thing here in Prescott. There are multiple flight schools, including the renowned Embry Riddle Aeronautical University, all using Love Field. It is a weekly thing on FaceBook for new transplants to complain about all the small plane traffic buzzing their house. Well, duh, stupid. Did you not research where you were buying a house? Edited November 1 by Cholla 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vail Vigilante Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 Does CMP have enough inventory to support a 3rd store? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Zook Posted November 1 Author Share Posted November 1 44 minutes ago, Vail Vigilante said: Does CMP have enough inventory to support a 3rd store? Thats a good valid question --- looking at the CEO's recent letter --- they have enough for a little while, but they are restructuring to support the shooting sports using their foundation $ --- or so I think it reads (open to individual interpretation) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dapper Dave Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 Don't do like Tucson Rod and Gun Club did, depend on the Forest Services good graces for decades, only to have a greedy Forest Service employee spread spent bullets in a nearby housing development and spread lies about the range. The range lost that fight - only shooting going on there for the last 15 years is archery, and my Dad taught me how to shoot there in the early 70s. Do like Three Points Tucson Rifle Club did, abut your range up against national monuments/forests on at least two sides, nobody is moving in next to you! On the other hand, there was that morning we found illegals sleeping behind one of the berms on the 500 meter range...and the mysterious car that came out of nowhere... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted November 2 Share Posted November 2 One thing that helps to keep ranges open is if you make them accessible to Law Enforcement agencies and/or Military reserve units for training. A firing range that is set up and adopted to such training exercises that is made available to those organizations has a much better chance of surviving. They receive favor from most counties because they serve a "Must Have" need for the community. If that can be staffed they can also provide a place for the public. As shooting ranges start to dry up for various reasons, it becomes necessary for groups to pull together to maintain a place for both recreational shooting and for training purposes. We just built a Large additional shooting area for the police at our home range. We have been under siege from the HIGH dollar folks on the other side of the hill from our range for some time now. They would like to see us shut down. Providing Law enforcement with a new and desirable shooting/training area adds a great deal of clout to our cause. Snakebite 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted November 2 Share Posted November 2 (edited) Snakebite's advice is sound. A local range where I shoot is on land leased from the state. We turn the entire range over to the state police for training at no charge when requested. All we ask is that they abide by the restrictions of our insurance and write a thank you letter to the State Land Commissioner. We recently got our lease renewed. Those letters really helped. Edited November 2 by Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Zook Posted November 2 Author Share Posted November 2 6 hours ago, Snakebite said: One thing that helps to keep ranges open is if you make them accessible to Law Enforcement agencies and/or Military reserve units for training. A firing range that is set up and adopted to such training exercises that is made available to those organizations has a much better chance of surviving. They receive favor from most counties because they serve a "Must Have" need for the community. If that can be staffed they can also provide a place for the public. As shooting ranges start to dry up for various reasons, it becomes necessary for groups to pull together to maintain a place for both recreational shooting and for training purposes. We just built a Large additional shooting area for the police at our home range. We have been under siege from the HIGH dollar folks on the other side of the hill from our range for some time now. They would like to see us shut down. Providing Law enforcement with a new and desirable shooting/training area adds a great deal of clout to our cause. Snakebite Thats a good idea, but this is an example of the exact opposite occurring --- out in Buckeye, we have the General Joe Foss range --- recently 'they' tried to shut us (civilians) out Recreational Shooters Evicted From Arizona’s Joe Foss Shooting Complex | An NRA Shooting Sports Journal Public outcry may have gotten the decision stalled for the moment.. Public Outcry Reverses Closure Of Public Range | An NRA Shooting Sports Journal this is about the range in general before the above actions occurred: Arizona’s General Joe Foss Shooting Complex | An NRA Shooting Sports Journal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watab kid Posted November 2 Share Posted November 2 im confused - are we talking about saving a range or adding a CMP Store out west ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life Posted November 3 Share Posted November 3 On 11/1/2024 at 11:44 AM, Cholla said: We get the same thing here in Prescott. There are multiple flight schools, including the renowned Embry Riddle Aeronautical University, all using Love Field. It is a weekly thing on FaceBook for new transplants to complain about all the small plane traffic buzzing their house. Well, duh, stupid. Did you not research where you were buying a house? They never do! We have had three major lawsuits against our rural way of life in the past 10 years. One, a developer built a subdivision directly across the road from a 100,000 chicken egg farm! Suit was filed the day after his first home sold because the “smell” was overpowering! Wanted the farm (maybe three miles away from the next nearest house) to pack up and move further away from the community. Obvious financial motives, property out that far was cheaper, no other builders to compete with as nobody else wanted to live next to an egg facility. Egg farm still there, development stopped. Second developer built an eighty unit subdivision next to a fifth generation field corn farm, showed to prospective buyers in the winter when nothing was growing, while touting the view of the Colorado National monument. When the corn matured (at about 10 feet tall!) in the summer, the buyers complained about their lost views. Corn fields still there, developer being sued out of business by homebuyers and farmers family for all the litigation costs they have incurred. Third developer planned to build a 70 home subdivision with lake and private golf course, provision for golf cart roads, open space. Sounded lovely but forgot grass needs water! We are a DESERT! Started to put in infrastructure and began to build a dam with diverter system on the main irrigation ditch!?!! No permission from the ditch company, no water rights, no permits from the county officials. 100% of the shares on the ditch were either 99 year leased or deeded to downstream property. Claimed his taking of the water was a highest and best use situation so didn’t feel it should be a problem. No lakes or golf courses yet and ditch has been repaired to the tune of over $100,000. Lawsuit against developer is ongoing. If you came here from there because you didn’t like there why the h€// do you want to make here like there? Just stay there and make there more like here! Regards Gateway Kid 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogollon Munk,SASS#303 Posted November 4 Share Posted November 4 The reason the chip plants were built next to Ben Avery Range is that Arizona has a law preventing residential construction within a mile of a public range. This was hard fought to get passed, as several Republican legislators owned real estate near public ranges that they wanted to develop. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Zook Posted November 4 Author Share Posted November 4 2 hours ago, Mogollon Munk,SASS#303 said: The reason the chip plants were built next to Ben Avery Range is that Arizona has a law preventing residential construction within a mile of a public range. This was hard fought to get passed, as several Republican legislators owned real estate near public ranges that they wanted to develop. Thank you Sir, did not know that information before you mentioned it.. this was the project that was recently published: Developers unveil Halo Vista, a 'city within a city' surrounding TSMC in Phoenix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted November 5 Share Posted November 5 If you move in next to a Hog farm, you are going to smell Pig $#!t. I spent 37 years working at Air Ports/Air Bases for the FAA. Not one of them were built in close proximity to anything. Over time things built up around them. Farming and industrial complexes work out just fine. Housing units don't work out because of the noise. People buy them because they are usually at a lower cost than the surrounding housing unit. A few years before I retired the Feds spent MILLIONS on the house that were built off the end of the runway at FAT to help curb the sound. They replaced the windows with dual pane, insulated the hell out of them and even restructured some of the attics to cut down on the noise and added sound proofing type roofs. It was pure BS! I have zero sympathy for the people that bought those houses, they knew exactly where they were buying a house and that the noise came with the purchase. Maybe such locations would be a good place to build housing units for the homeless, or maybe a Hog farm. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life Posted November 5 Share Posted November 5 A long time ago when I lived in Denver, our airport was Stapleton. It was built quite a ways out of the city but over time had become completely encircled by houses, commercial buildings and parks. Enter proposals for DIA. East of everything the running joke was it was closer to Kansas than Denver. The whiners said it was so far away it would cut down potential use because of the long distance from the city. A few lawsuits over environmental issues, encroaching on antelope habitat and land conversion from agriculture to one of the largest airports in the world and tadaaa!! Up it went. Before it was completed (as they started to build it actually) there were not one but two subdivisions within a couple miles of the runways under construction!?!! Now it is nearly encircled by houses, fast food joints and hotels. And guess what, all the same complaints about noise and traffic and pollution come up all the time. Everyone knew that would happen but some people just don’t listen. Regards Gateway Kid 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogollon Munk,SASS#303 Posted November 5 Share Posted November 5 Arizona Laws 17-603. Preexisting outdoor shooting ranges; noise buffering or attenuation » LawServer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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