How many spotters to call a P?

[Cahawbakid]

Title says it all. Can just one call a

P or must we have 2 of the three. Agree. 
 

I was told over the weekend that only one spotter was required to receive a

P

[JohnWesleyHardin]

You should have 2, but the TO can call a P by himself.

Edited October 27 by JohnWesleyHardin
Clarification

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I am getting old and senile but last I heard you do not need any.  P's are assessed by the TO.  If need be he can ask the spotters what they saw.

[Krazy Kajun]

TO has final say on calling Ps. They certainly should hear what spotters have to say but the TO makes the calls for P. 
 

Kajun

Edited October 29 by Krazy Kajun

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Cahawbakid said:

Title says it all. Can just one call a

P or must we have 2 of the three. Agree. 
 

I was told over the weekend that only one spotter was required to receive a

P

The "Spotters" identify misses. 

Their call is directly used to assign the penalty.

The TO cannot over rule or disregard spotter miss counts. (tho they can change out spotters after the fact for bad spotting).

 

ALL other penalties are IDENTIFIED  

1. By the TO observation of an infraction

OR

2. By a posse member/ spotter.

 

The decision of whether the identification of infraction is accurate and the subsequent assignment of penalty is solely on the TO.

 

The identification of an infraction only requires a singular posse member to call it out. 

But then requires the TO to agree with the infraction for penalty to be assigned.

[watab kid]

5 hours ago, JohnWesleyHardin said:

You should have 2, but the TO can call a P by himself.

dittos that , he is watching , 

[Griff]

Zero spotters can call a P, or MSV, SDQ, or MDQ.  Only the TO, Spotters, or other range official should be identifying any penalty.  BUt, only the TO can assess a penalty, Missis are assessed by the TO after polling the Spotters (whose count cannot be overridden), and should also seek their input on other penalties.

[Hoss]

TO calls the Ps, should accept input from spotters. 
if I’m TOing and 1 spotter calls a P that I did not see I will poll the other 2. If only 1  spotter saw it, I’d be very unlikely to call it. If 2 saw it and it was plausible I’d most likely go with it. Especially if they could articulate exactly the same issue. 
I doubt I would override 3 spotters unless I was 100% sure they were wrong. If I saw the P and no spotters backed it up I doubt I would call it. I’d try to give every benefit of doubt to the shooter. But not calling a penalty in effect penalizes every other shooter. Gotta be fair! 

[Leroy Luck]

8 hours ago, Griff said:

Zero spotters can call a P, or MSV, SDQ, or MDQ.  Only the TO, Spotters, or other range official should be identifying any penalty

SHB pg 11 “every participant in a SASS match is expected to be a safety officer; all shooters are expected to remain alert for actions by others that are unsafe”

 

At any point I expect anybody that observes something to bring it to the TOs attention, whether it ends up being a penalty of any kind is then his call. 
 

There are several other paragraphs I won’t put in their entirety in this post, but SHB pgs 20-23 have good information. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

REF also:

RO1 - pp.26-27

RO2 - p.8

[Griff]

4 hours ago, Leroy Luck said:

SHB pg 11 “every participant in a SASS match is expected to be a safety officer; all shooters are expected to remain alert for actions by others that are unsafe”

At any point I expect anybody that observes something to bring it to the TOs attention, whether it ends up being a penalty of any kind is then his call. 
There are several other paragraphs I won’t put in their entirety in this post, but SHB pgs 20-23 have good information. 

Leroy,  Please note that I said only the TO can make the call, or assess the penalty to the shooter, but, takes input from anyone.  Your first quote, isn't just limited to the firing line, or conduct during the course of fire, but... anywhere on the range.  Too many inputs from the peanut gallery during the course of fire, generally add more confusion to whatever else is happening on the firing line.  As a TO, I generally only want to hear from the Spotters, LTO, ULTO, Scorekeeper... those actively involved in the conduct of the stage.  There's been so many rule changes since I first started running the timer, that the sport has significantly changed in that time.  However, this isn't really one of them.  

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

On 10/27/2024 at 12:41 PM, JohnWesleyHardin said:

You should have 2, but the TO can call a P by himself.

Wrong.

 

There is no "should have two" any more than you should have 3.

 

Phantom

[JohnWesleyHardin]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Wrong.

 

There is no "should have two" any more than you should have 3.

 

Phantom

I wouldn't call a P as a TO unless 2 of the spotters saw it too.  No it's not a rule, but I always give the benefit of doubt to the shooter.  That's not wrong, that's just how I roll.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, JohnWesleyHardin said:

I wouldn't call a P as a TO unless 2 of the spotters saw it too.  No it's not a rule, but I always give the benefit of doubt to the shooter.  That's not wrong, that's just how I roll.

Then you're ok with putting your finger on the scales of justice?  Shooters should receive the same level of TO adjudication regardless of who the TO is.  Failing to penalize a shooter for an infraction is the same as penalizing every other shooter.

[JohnWesleyHardin]

7 minutes ago, Griff said:

Then you're ok with putting your finger on the scales of justice?  Shooters should receive the same level of TO adjudication regardless of who the TO is.  Failing to penalize a shooter for an infraction is the same as penalizing every other shooter.

Oh, I can totally manipulate the scales of justice.  😂😂😂

[Texas Jack Black]

On 10/27/2024 at 2:06 PM, Cahawbakid said:

Title says it all. Can just one call a

P or must we have 2 of the three. Agree. 
 

I was told over the weekend that only one spotter was required to receive a

P

  Another mess

Edited October 29 by Texas Jack Black

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

4 hours ago, JohnWesleyHardin said:

I wouldn't call a P as a TO unless 2 of the spotters saw it too.  No it's not a rule, but I always give the benefit of doubt to the shooter.  That's not wrong, that's just how I roll.

Actually, it is wrong. 

 

Thanks for cheating out the rest of the shooters.

 

Phantom

Edited October 29 by Phantom, SASS #54973
Chill, just a spelling error...

[Captain Bill Burt]

5 hours ago, JohnWesleyHardin said:

I wouldn't call a P as a TO unless 2 of the spotters saw it too.  No it's not a rule, but I always give the benefit of doubt to the shooter.  That's not wrong, that's just how I roll.

Respectfully this is not correct.  How you personally decide to roll should not be advantaging a subset of shooters over everyone else.

4 hours ago, Griff said:

Then you're ok with putting your finger on the scales of justice?  Shooters should receive the same level of TO adjudication regardless of who the TO is.  Failing to penalize a shooter for an infraction is the same as penalizing every other shooter.

This is my understanding as well.

Edited October 29 by Captain Bill Burt

[Hanso Lowe]

Wow. This took a turn. 

[Hanso Lowe]

On 10/27/2024 at 1:06 PM, Cahawbakid said:

Title says it all. Can just one call a

P or must we have 2 of the three. Agree. 
 

I was told over the weekend that only one spotter was required to receive a

P

Thanks for asking this. I think what it boils down to is it’s up the the TO to call everything but misses. With input from the spotters if the TO was not in position to see it. And then, the TO decides whether to call the P based on that input. 
 

The question came up this past weekend when a TO that did not see a P, assessed the penalty assuming only one spotter that did see it was needed. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Spotters don’t call “P”s, TOs do. The spotters are generally expected to inform the TO if they witness one but ultimately the TO decides what the call is.  

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 minutes ago, Hanso Lowe said:

 

The question came up this past weekend when a TO that did not see a P, assessed the penalty assuming only one spotter that did see it was needed. 

TO does not need to see the "P".

 

Phantom

[Equanimous Phil]

From the SHB (V27.4):

Spotters/Counters – have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots. Three spotters are required – majority (2/3) breaks any ties in regard to misses.

 

Imho, it's really inconsistent of the SHB to require a 2/3 majority only in regard to misses. As Procedurals are not mentioned, one spotter seems to be enough to point out a P for wrong target shooting order. I somehow doubt that this was intentional... The TO's duty is to watch the shooter, the spotters duty is to watch the targets for misses and Ps regarding shooting order. Depending on props (for example shooting through a window), a spotter may not see the shooter and the TO may not see the targets. The TO is dependent on the spotters regarding misses and P (for wrong target order). So, as a TO I always handled it the same way for misses and for Ps regarding target order, benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. Seems to be wrong according the rule book. 

Btw., it's not clear if OP only meant assigning a P for shooting targets in the wrong order in this thread. Please consider that there are a lot more rule infractions that result in a P. And while others on the range may point such an infraction out, for all but the correct target order the TO is solely responsible to catch and call it:

 

Procedural (P) infractions include:
- Failure to attempt to fire a firearm, engage a prop, or perform a stage maneuver.
- Shooting targets in the wrong order.
- Engaging the stage in the wrong order.
- Use of illegally acquired ammunition.
- Not returning revolvers to leather (unless otherwise specified).
- First offense in the same match for “shooting out of category.”
- Firing more rounds than specified in the stage instructions.

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

It's very obvious that a number of replies indicate a severe lack of understanding of the rules...as well as some individuals' blatant refusal to follow them.

 

Please READ the referenced rules (in all THREE handbooks) and apply as needed.

 

Also remember that "interpersonal conflicts" will not be tolerated...on the range and here on this forum.

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