Black powder lube bullets

[Buffalo gus]

I’m thinking of making the switch to black powder, but I’m having a hard time finding suitable bullets. I already cast for my big bore cartridge rifle but I don’t really see myself having time to cast for pistol calibers. So I’d like to find somewhere I can get pre cast bullets. I’ve been shooting coated bullet or bullets lubed with smokeless lube. I’ve been told that that smokeless lube or coated with a lube wad will work, is there any truth to this? Any info in the right direction will be appreciated! 

[slow poke gear]

Are you going to use real black or a substitute?

I use 777 with powder coated bullets and haven't had a problem with leading the barrel.  I do this in my 45-70 and my pistol caliber main match loads

[Eyesa Horg]

I'm using "Desparado Cowboy" bullets in pistols, but they don't carry enough lube for the rifle. With real BP that is. I don't use the subs. Big Lube bullets work great in my rifle, but to my knowledge,no one is making them anymore.

[Cemetery]

Just now, Eyesa Horg said:

I'm using "Desparado Cowboy" bullets in pistols, but they don't carry enough lube for the rifle. With real BP that is. I don't use the subs. Big Lube bullets work great in my rifle, but to my knowledge,no one is making them anymore.

 

Reach out to Slippery Dick at https://slipperybullets.com/ he started casting 44.40 Big Loobs last year, if that's what you're looking for.  Not sure if he got around to 38 cal snakebites, or the 45 cal Big Loob yet.

[Cemetery]

9 minutes ago, Buffalo gus said:

I’m thinking of making the switch to black powder, but I’m having a hard time finding suitable bullets.

 

This is why I switched to APP.  I don't cast, and was no longer able to find suitable bullets after a few vendors retired.

[Buffalo gus]

I’ll be using real black powder. Eyesa would running a grease cookie under the desperado bullets work out in a rifle? 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Looks like Slippery Bullets only does big lubes in 44wcf.  

 

Grease cookies can help but are a hassle and can have their own issues.  Missouri Bullet Co. lubes any of their bullets with BP lube (you have to ask for it).  They are not big lube but for main match ammo they are fine.  You can run a patch down the bore part way through the match if you feel the need.   Desperado Cowboy Bullets say their blue lube is BP compatible, but I didn't like it and relubed those with my own lube.  YMMV

 

@Dallas McBoomboom  (formerly McPewPew) was supposed to be gearing up to make big lubes, but I haven't heard lately so don't know where that's at.

 

I've started using APP in some of my small caliber rifle ammo, because it's easy and I'm lazy.  I miss the flame in the rifle, though.

[Eyesa Horg]

23 minutes ago, Cemetery said:

 

Reach out to Slippery Dick at https://slipperybullets.com/ he started casting 44.40 Big Loobs last year, if that's what you're looking for.  Not sure if he got around to 38 cal snakebites, or the 45 cal Big Loob yet.

I think he's just doing 44-40 currently.

[Eyesa Horg]

17 minutes ago, Buffalo gus said:

I’ll be using real black powder. Eyesa would running a grease cookie under the desperado bullets work out in a rifle? 

From what I've read, yes. However, I have zero experience with such. I don't shoot black often, but it is a hoot. Can't beat the flames and boom of real BP.

[Jackalope]

Another option is to purchase unsized, unlubricated bullets from one of the various vendors and lubricate them yourself with something suitable for use with black powder.  I often do this with .45 caliber bullets for use in revolvers.   These bullets typically won't hold much lube, so if you try it in a rifle, be prepared to run a damp patch down the barrel between stages.

 

I was not happy with the results when I tried bullets lubed with smokeless lube, (like the crayon-type wax) with black powder in a rifle.  Without swabbing between stages, my 24-inch rifle would not keep 10 shots on a paper plate at 15 yards.

 

I can only comment on real black powder.  Your mileage may vary.

 

Jackalope

 

[Dallas McBoomboom]

I make the 38 Snakebite,  45 PRS, 38 Slims, 38-40, and a few other oddballs. I don't put it out a ton because I just do this on the side, and due to some changes in my "regular" business, don't have a ton of time to devote to it.  Feel free to hit me up, I'm happy to work with you if it's not a need 1000 in two days kinda deal. 

[Will Kane]

I recently switched over to real black. I've run out of 180 grain 38-40 Big Lube bullets for my rifle, but still have a whole bunch of 180 grain bullets with smokeless lube from Missouri Bullet Co.

FWIW, a couple of weeks ago, I melted the smokeless lube off enough Missouri bullets for a six-stage monthly match and then pan lubed them with some homemade Gato Feo No. 1 lube. My rifle made it through all six stages without a hitch, and I didn't run a single patch down the bore during the match. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Missouri Bullets sells BP-lubed bullets.  I load them for my revolvers but not my rifle as they lack enough lube for the rifle.

[Griff]

Load with APP and continue using your coated or smokeless lubed bullets.  No can do with real BP or other subs.  

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Contact Chas B Wolfson (https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/profile/13108-chas-b-wolfson-sass-11104/)

He has a lot of success with grease cookies under his bullets for black powder.

He might have some tips for you.

--Dawg 

[JackSlade]

https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-260F

 

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I'm guessing this bullet would work quite well in 45lc rifles to avoid leading in the barrel. Looks like it's got quite an exaggerated lube groove.

 

I use the 452-200 Lee mold for both pistols and rifles, but I might get this mold for rifle rounds if it helps keep the bore a little cleaner for longer.

[Sedalia Dave]

Accurate Molds can’t cut the line groove as deep as the “Big Lube” bullets, but it does carry sufficient lube. 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

6 hours ago, Buffalo gus said:

I’m thinking of making the switch to black powder, but I’m having a hard time finding suitable bullets. I already cast for my big bore cartridge rifle but I don’t really see myself having time to cast for pistol calibers. So I’d like to find somewhere I can get pre cast bullets. I’ve been shooting coated bullet or bullets lubed with smokeless lube. I’ve been told that that smokeless lube or coated with a lube wad will work, is there any truth to this? Any info in the right direction will be appreciated! 

Maybe you should state what caliber you are shooting.

[Buffalo gus]

I’ll be shooting 38s to start with in pistols since I already have them. But I’m looking for a set in 45 colt. As far as the rifle will be a 24” yellow boy in 45 colt. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Pistols will not need big lube bullets at all.  My pistol BP loads actually don't have any lube at all, I just squeeze a blob of Butter Flavored Crisco over the first two rounds at the loading table.  I know others who use unlubed coated bullets for BP pistol, and so some swabbing during the match.

[Buffalo gus]

8 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Pistols will not need big lube bullets at all.  My pistol BP loads actually don't have any lube at all, I just squeeze a blob of Butter Flavored Crisco over the first two rounds at the loading table.  I know others who use unlubed coated bullets for BP pistol, and so some swabbing during the match.

I’m more concerned about the rifle loads more. I know from shooting bpcr how important fouling control is. 

[Chancy Shot, SASS #67163]

8 hours ago, Buffalo gus said:

I’ll be using real black powder. Eyesa would running a grease cookie under the desperado bullets work out in a rifle? 

I have been doing that for several years.  It adds a tedious step to the reloading process, but I feel it is worth it.

 

1. Bake your smokeless lubed bullets a 210* for 10 minutes on a baking sheet lined with paper towels.  Gets rid of the wax.

2. Make a batch of BP lube.  200 grams each of soy wax, bees wax and Crisco, plus 1/2 cup olive oil.  Melt it all together in a double boiler (big pan of water with a smaller pan floating on the water with the lube in it.)(A word to the wise, go to a garage sale and get your own pans.  Using the wife's is not recommended.) and pour into small aluminum loaf pans to make lube ingots.

3. I have a 7-inch pan.  I put in 1 inch of water and 68 grams of lube.  put it on the stove at low heat to melt the lube.  It will float on the water.  Once it is all melted, let it cool.  you now have a huge lube cookie.  Get it out of the pan and put on a paper towel (most of the time I can get it out in 1 or 2 pieces.).

4. I use a brass cartridge of the proper caliber for a punch.  Drill out the primer pocket and use a nail to push out the little cookies.  This is the tedious part.  They are sticky.

5. Load the appropriate amount of BP, place the little cookie on the powder, add the bullet and crimp.

 

Play with it a little.  Too much lube in the pan and the cookies get thick.  Not enough olive oil and the big cookie gets brittle. 

Give it a shot.  It's not rocket surgery.

 

Chancy

 

 

 

[Griff]

I've been shooting 45 Colt thru a 24-¼" 1873 Uberti since 1987.  I settled on the RCBS 45-225-CAV shortly after I bought the rifle.  I used it long before "Big Lube" bullets were a thing,  With my homemade lube until SPG came out my muzzle will have a nice lube star on the muzzle and fouling remains soft and pliable throughout

3.  I have used Goex Cartridge, 3F, 2F and APP as propellants and have no fouling issues.    I've actually shot several 3 day matches with out any cleaning until the match is over.  Now that RCBS no longer catalogs it, I think I'll see about getting Accurate to make me a 3 cavity version.  That 2 cavity only being my only complaint.  Cast of straight wheel weights, I get 230 grains, and with one part Linotype added to six parts WW, they weigh 225 grains.  The truncated cone feeds smoothly thru all 3 of my toggle links, my 1892 Rossi and 1894 Marlin.  My 2 newest toggle links are fussier about AOL that that original 1986 production 1873, making me keep my OAL at 1.577" or less.  When I talk to Accurate, I'll see about moving the crimp groove forward 4-5 thousandths.  In the 1885 Low Wall, this bullet in front of 30 grains of Goex Cartridge is a one hole out to 50 yards, and inside an 1-¼ at 100 yards.  About as well as my 74 year old eyes can see the target nowadays.  

 

Edited October 24 by Griff

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

10 minutes ago, Chancy Shot, SASS #67163 said:

...1. Bake your smokeless lubed bullets a 210* for 10 minutes on a baking sheet lined with paper towels.  Gets rid of the wax...

 

I haven't pan-lubed in years, but when I did, I used newspaper instead of paper towels and with the bullets on their side, the lube melts out quicker.  Afterwards, those newspaper pieces with the wax soaked into them will then also make good fire starters in the fireplace, campfire, etc.

[Chancy Shot, SASS #67163]

29 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

 

I haven't pan-lubed in years, but when I did, I used newspaper instead of paper towels and with the bullets on their side, the lube melts out quicker.  Afterwards, those newspaper pieces with the wax soaked into them will then also make good fire starters in the fireplace, campfire, etc.

Nice!  I will start saving them instead of filling the landfill.

 

Chancy

[Dapper Dave]

Only BPC lube I have tried is some homemade was ones that I made from REALLY old wax bullets and olive oil - worked very poorly. Other than that I used SPG tropical and so far it seems to work quite well. I only use real black, either Olde Eynsford or homemade. I wish I could find a Big Lube mold in 45 Colt that I could afford, but the 200gr Lee I do have seems to have a big enough lube groove to hold plenty. I am plenty ignorant of BPC shooting, and discussions like this are gold for me. 

 

[Buffalo gus]

20 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said:

Only BPC lube I have tried is some homemade was ones that I made from REALLY old wax bullets and olive oil - worked very poorly. Other than that I used SPG tropical and so far it seems to work quite well. I only use real black, either Olde Eynsford or homemade. I wish I could find a Big Lube mold in 45 Colt that I could afford, but the 200gr Lee I do have seems to have a big enough lube groove to hold plenty. I am plenty ignorant of BPC shooting, and discussions like this are gold for me. 

 

 

I have to agree I’ve learned a lot of options from this thread. Loading black powder cartridges isn’t any new but loading them to run a full day with out running a patch is. It’s also a lot different than trying to shoot 1,000 yards with black powder and wiping between shots( which is what I’m used to).  Thanks to all that have contributed their knowledge. 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

If you want to shoot real black powder once you have the correct bullets that hold enough BP lube for your rifle, loading your ammo and shooting a days worth of stages should be a piece of cake.

 

Or you can go the regular bullet with or without a BP lube cookie and run a bore snake between stages. The lube cookie may eliminate the between stage maintenance but takes longer during the reloading process.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Dapper Dave said:

Only BPC lube I have tried is some homemade was ones that I made from REALLY old wax bullets and olive oil - worked very poorly. Other than that I used SPG tropical and so far it seems to work quite well. I only use real black, either Olde Eynsford or homemade. I wish I could find a Big Lube mold in 45 Colt that I could afford, but the 200gr Lee I do have seems to have a big enough lube groove to hold plenty. I am plenty ignorant of BPC shooting, and discussions like this are gold for me. 

 

that's a good bullet for the pistols, but may cause some feeding issues in unmodified rifles.  Like a semi-auto that feeds from a magazine, the Marlin 1894 & Winchester 1892 action will likely need the bottom of the chamber mouth slightly ramped to keep the cutting edge of the bullet shoulder from hanging up on the chamber mouth.   Needs to be done very carefully to ensure the case web is fully supported.  I've had similar problems trying to feed semi-wadcutters in my '73s also,  Nothing a little jiggle won't cure, but a little jiggle costs time.  

 

I only have one "Big-Lube" mold, the 160 TC for the .45... and frankly, like my other 6-gang aluminum Lee molds, I don't like it.  It really only produces about 4-½ good bullets... as about every 3 rd or 4th pour I might get 5 good bullets.  I can't remember the last time I got 6.  

[Erasmus]

As much as I love real black, I use APP and Bear Creek coated bullets in my cartridge guns (BPCR not withstanding). 

 

I've loaded .38-55 and .45-70 with lubed wads and real black and never get really great accuracy results. 

 

Edited October 25 by Erasmus

[Dapper Dave]

Griff, I only have two 45 Colt firearms, the Remington New Model Army with Howell conversion cylinder, and a Taurus Judge. We don't talk about the Judge.  My rifle is 357 and  borrowed, so when I can afford to get my own, it will probably be 357/38 as well, but I do thank you for the information, sir. And yes, the old Marlin I am using needs the "jiggle" once in a while, but I ain't gonna win any matches for quite a while, anyways. 🙃

Edited October 25 by Dapper Dave

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Dapper Dave said:

Griff, I only have two 45 Colt firearms, the Remington New Model Army with Howell conversion cylinder, and a Taurus Judge. We don't talk about the Judge.  My rifle is 357 and  borrowed, so when I can afford to get my own, it will probably be 357/38 as well, but I do thank you for the information, sir. And yes, the old Marlin I am using needs the "jiggle" once in a while, but I ain't gonna win any matches for quite a while, anyways. 🙃

Please... I was an enlisted guy... No "sir" required... might be considered offensive in some instances... 😉

[Sedalia Dave]

7 hours ago, Dapper Dave said:

Griff, I only have two 45 Colt firearms, the Remington New Model Army with Howell conversion cylinder, and a Taurus Judge. We don't talk about the Judge.  My rifle is 357 and  borrowed, so when I can afford to get my own, it will probably be 357/38 as well, but I do thank you for the information, sir. And yes, the old Marlin I am using needs the "jiggle" once in a while, but I ain't gonna win any matches for quite a while, anyways. 🙃

 

If your Marlin has a glitch in it have a competent Marlin gunsmith look at it.  You might need to change the OAL of your ammo or the carrier may be worn and need Garrison Joe's fix.

 

But the first thing is to be doubly sure the screws are tight. Especially the one on the bottom just forward of the loading gate.

[Dapper Dave]

Ok, will do

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

I have been shooting nothing but real Black Powder in CAS for about 20 years now.

 

In my experience, modern Smokeless lubes do not perform well with Black Powder, the lube combines with the BP fouling to form a crusty deposit in the bore, which is difficult to remove.

 

So back then I was doing the whole pan lube thing with standard bullets with hard Smokeless lube in the lube groove.

 

First, I would melt the lube out of the bullets in the oven. I would lay the bullets on their sides on a cookie sheet with a couple of pieces of paper towel on the cookie sheet. I would turn the oven on real low, about 200 degrees, and most of the lube would melt and wick out onto the paper towels. Not 100%, but most, which was good enough.

 

Black Powder likes a gooey bullet lube. There are lots of recipes. Anything gooey will do. I would make up a batch of BP lube about 50/50 Crisco and beeswax. It does not have to be exact. Melt it in on the stove in a double boiler so nothing catches fire.

 

I bought a couple of round pans, probably about 8 or 10 inches in diameter. I set about 50 bullets pointy end up in the pans, spaced a bit apart, and poured the melted bullet lube into the pan, enough so that the lube grooves in the bullets were covered. When the lube hardened, I would pop the 'cake' of lube, complete with bullets, out of the pan and press the bullets out.

 

Here is the trick: when all the bullets have been popped out, place the empty 'cake' back in the pans and fill the holes in the cake, left over from the earlier batch of bullets, with fresh bullets. It does not matter if the cake breaks, place the pieces back in the pan and fill it with fresh bullets. Into the 200 degree over for about 20 minutes to remelt the lube. Pull them out and repeat. I kept two pans going, so one would be melting while I was popping bullets out of the other.

 

Lube Cookies, and other schemes: A big pain in the butt. I was putting a thin card between the powder and the cookie, to prevent adulterating the powder, then seating my bullets and crimping. I quickly found out the soft lube cookie was gluing itself to the base of the bullet and they flew like lopsided darts, completely ruining accuracy. So the next step was to add a second card between the cookie and the back of the bullet. This worked, but what a pain. Decap, and size, prime, dump in powder, add card, add cookie, add second card, seat bullet and crimp. What a PAIN!

 

These rounds worked fine in my revolvers, but the thin lube groove of modern bullets did not carry enough lube to keep the bore of my rifle lubed the whole length. The last six inches of so near the muzzle would be starved for lube, and hard fouling would begin to build up, affecting accuracy. So after a couple of stages I would swab out my rifle barrel with a patch and my favorite water based BP cleaning solution to clear out the fouling.

 

WHAT A PAIN!!!!

 

Then I discovered Big Lube Bullets. Dick Dastardly had just started his Biglube .com business, and he shipped me a mold for 44-40 and one for 45 Colt. The 45 Colt mold was the old Pigeon Roost Slim 250 grain bullet, and the 44 was the 200 grain Mav-Dutchman. I bought an inexpensive Lee melting pot, and started happily casting my own bullets. I splurged on a Star Magma lubesizer to size and lube my bullets. A couple of inserts for 44 and 45 caliber bullets. I was buying sticks of SPG lube, probably from Midway, to feed my Star lubrisizer.

 

I never pan lubed another bullet again.

 

Here is half of my 44 Mav-Dutchman mold. Six cavities means producing bullets in high volume.

 

 

 

 

 

Here is a photo of the different Big Lube bullets I was casting. Left to right: 180 grain 38-40, 200 grain Mav-Dutchman for 44-40 and 44 Russian, 200 grain J/P 200, which I designed, and the 250 grain PRS 45 Colt bullet. Next to that is a commercial 45-70 bullet with many lube grooves, and on the far end is one of my old pan lubed 45s. Notice how huge the lube grooves are in the Big Lube bullets, as opposed to the skimpy lube groove in my pan lubed 45. That is why they would run out of lube in my rifle, they just did not carry enough lube.

 

 

 

 

 

This photo tells the story. On the left is a pair of Mav-Dutchman 44 caliber bullets and a loaded 44-40 round. I stripped the bullet lube out of one bullet, so you can see how huge the lube groove is. On the right is the same story with one of my 45 Colt rounds.

 

 

 

 

 

Here is my trusty Star lubrisizer. I was using a second hand RCBS lube sizer for a while, but it was too slow. You have to shove the bullet in the top, drive it down, then raise it up again to revolver the lubed bullet. With the Star you just pop a fresh bullet in the top, and when you pull down the handle it poops a freshly lubed bullet out the bottom of the die. Yes, more expensive, but so much faster.

 

 

 

 

 

So I was happily casting bullets, and then one day I had my blood tested, and the lead content was really high. So no more casting for me. I started buying my Big Lube bullets from Springfield Slim out in California. He sized and lubed them to my specs, and shipped them in big Priority Mail boxes. I would email him for an order about once a year.

 

 

Alas, about a year ago Slim got out of the bullet casting business. I emailed him for a big supply of 38-40, 44-40, and 45 bullets which should last me a long time.

 

And the last I heard, I think DIck Dastardly is not selling Big Lube molds any more.

 

 

 

Those 44 caliber bullets that Slippery DIck has on his web page look to me to be the 44 Mav-Dutchman bullets. Hopefully he will start doing the old PRS 250 grain 45s soon.

Edited October 27 by Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283