Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 If you were correct there would be a lot more shooters in every category shooting hammered doubles. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 32 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said: Time to run the troll alert up the flagpole? No matter what anyone says the OP is just going to argue about it. Yep. I'm done with this guy. Hopefully nobody gets hurt. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 33 minutes ago, 9245 said: I will only use it after extensive test firings, as it stands I have every confidence that it will be safe with black powder, especially with the pop gun loads that I intend to use. What's the mean time between failures on that SG? As Larsen as said...so I agree. I'm done. Last thing: You are terribly irresponsible. Phantom 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 10 minutes ago, 9245 said: I didn’t say that a pump couldn’t be fast, just that with a 2 round limit a side by side is faster. I could show you that video of Jerry setting his revolver speed record but that doesn’t mean that a revolver is faster than a semi auto either. With the same amount of practice the side by side would be faster. Boy you have a LOT to learn about speed shooting. Jerry M can shoot a revolver faster than anyone including him can shoot a semiauto. Look it up. Bob Munden's single action world record was 2 rounds on 2 targets from the draw in .12 seconds. Shooting only 4 shots, the current SASS speed records are: Hammered Double - 3.21 Hammerless SXS - 2.64 97 - 2.48 87 - 3.11 So you don't have to do the math, that hammered double record averaged .8 seconds between shots. Gut C Gunman and Skrap P were shooting 6 shot 97 runs. The between shot average was .63 and .65 respectively. Extrapolated to a 4 shot run you are looking at runs in the neighborhood of 2.52 and 2.60 seconds. Without seeing their draw technique it could have been even faster. It bears pointing out that all of the above record runs required hitting and knocking down the requisite number of shotgun targets. AND the folks that shot them put in several thousands of hours of practice. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9245 Posted October 23 Author Share Posted October 23 OK the shotgun stuff is off topic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 6 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: Bob Munden's single action world record was 2 rounds on 2 targets from the draw in .12 seconds. I don't know how this is supposed to have happened as stated. First of all when he competed in fast draw the shooters self started. They weren't reacting to a start signal, beep or light. Was this one round on each of two targets or two round on two targets for a total of four? If it's two shots total, time starts with first shot, a .12 second split is believable but not if it includes drawing after reacting to a start signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said: I don't know how this is supposed to have happened as stated. First of all when he competed in fast draw the shooters self started. They weren't reacting to a start signal, beep or light. Was this one round on each of two targets or two round on two targets for a total of four? If it's two shots total, time starts with first shot, a .12 second split is believable but not if it includes drawing after reacting to a start signal. I as going off what I have read. 1 round on each target IMHO he is that fast. Edited October 23 by Sedalia Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 2 hours ago, 9245 said: didn’t say that a pump couldn’t be fast, just that with a 2 round limit a side by side is faster. None of the videos I’ve posted nor the SASS speed records have the shooters stoked their guns. All of the 97 shooters single load through the ejection port. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 Most of the clubs around here allow stoking a '97 or '87 on the clock, meaning you can load the tube after the buzzer. A few folks do it because they like to pump away, but they are not the fast guys and it is slower than single loading. I've seen one video of one of the really fast guys who can load the '97 tube and shoot six faster than I can single load and shoot two, but he is "not normal" and is even faster single loading. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 About the fastest reaction time to for a human is around 100 milliseconds. So... Phantom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 4 hours ago, 9245 said: In a perfect world I would use a pump, but with an arbitrary 2 round limit per the rules it would not make any sense as I would actually be putting myself at a disadvantage because I could only load one shell at a time and have to pump twice, with a side by side I can load both at once and open, close, and cock the hammers in less time than it would take to do those pumps, plus I can get the second shot off quicker. Side hammers give less resistance opening and closing because you are not working against internal hammer springs, and at least to me sweeping my hand over the top to cock the hammers is a quick and natural move, so to me I feel like it is a bit quicker. Also I just prefer the look of side hammers and feel like it fits the character and time period better. Pump...SLOWER? Now that's funny right there. ..........Widder ..... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 On page 32 of the SASS Shooter's Handbook, it states, in part: Quote Original and replicas may be used in competition provided they are in good, safe working order. I doubt you could provide a written statement from a bone fide gunsmith so stating for that firearm. And now I'm done. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 (edited) Just to set the record straight. The semi-official record for four shots from a hammer double shotgun, knocking down all four targets is 3.21 seconds. The record for four shots from a ‘97 pump shotgun, knocking down all four targets is 2.44 seconds. For the hammerless double, the record is 2.48 seconds. These results don’t necessarily reflect what the average shooter of each different gun will regularly accomplish, but it is certainly evidence of what the best of the best can produce. 9245!! For the sake and safety of anyone around you, if not for your own, put that old relic back up on the wall and admire it and the work you’ve done in making it look so good! Perhaps build it a nice display case and add a few of those brass shells for effect! ##John Barleycorn has NEW Cimmaron 12ga hammer doubles, over on the Merchants’ forum, for $675.00!!## These folks have offered you some very sound advice, derived from more combined years of experience than I care to calculate!! If you’re smart, you’ll take it!! EDIT: Reckon I’m done too!! Edited October 24 by Blackwater 53393 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 4 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said: I as going off what I have read. 1 round on each target IMHO he is that fast. The whole point of what I posted is the details of what the .12 time is measuring. Elapsed time between first and second shot? Shooter reacts to start signal, draws and shoots one shot each on two targets? Huge difference in those two events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 7 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said: The whole point of what I posted is the details of what the .12 time is measuring. Elapsed time between first and second shot? Shooter reacts to start signal, draws and shoots one shot each on two targets? Huge difference in those two events. Agreed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 59 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said: ,,,##John Barleycorn has NEW Cimmaron 12ga hammer doubles, over on the Merchants’ forum, for $675.00!!##... 9245, the shotgun mentioned above, variously called the 1878 Coach gun, or TTN (the original importer from years ago, but we still commonly call it that), is a Chinese copy of the Colt hammer gun and is the most popular hammered shotgun amongst the competitors who use a hammer gun. Even if that antique was totally safe, the stakes are too high to take a chance. And I promise you that you would not be able to shoot it as fast as a TTN (watch some videos). I know there is a mystique about the old guns and you want to shoot them. I get that, as I'm a little more into authenticity than some. I like to shoot some original guns occasionally as well, but they are rifles and pistols in good shape, not damascus barreled shotguns. Be smart, be safe, and have fun. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 19 hours ago, 9245 said: I didn’t say that a pump couldn’t be fast, just that with a 2 round limit a side by side is faster. ... With the same amount of practice the side by side would be faster. Video evidence has alreay disspelled that misconception...IMO. Something to consider is that 1897 pump and 1887 lever action shotguns have EJECTORS (which are NOT ALLOWED on SxS shotguns in SASS competition). ...and the "period" listed for firearms (particularly long guns) is "from approximately 1860 until 1899"; under which '87 & '97 shotguns obviously fall. (REF: SHB p.38). I think this "discussion" has arrived at an impasse...time to shut it down. 4 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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