watab kid Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 this has been an enjoyable and educating thread , recently ive gotten smitten with conversions , i have three so far and am looking to get a couple more as funds allow , im not as the OP as concerned with "period" as the fun factors at the range , im going to shoot them for fun and intend to do so frequently as a plinking session ,ive learned a lot here and thank you all as well as the OP for starting this thread , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 2 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said: Howdy 9245, fortunately for you, the out-of-print and very expensive McDowell book, the "bible" of conversions, has been floating around in PDF form for a while now. Here ya go: A Study of Colt Conversions and Other Percussion Revolvers - R. McDowell.pdf 63.1 MB · 6 downloads It's not working for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 1 hour ago, Cholla said: It's not working for me. I don't know, are you using a phone maybe? With my laptop if I click it, it downloads to my download folder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 5 hours ago, 9245 said: So you’re saying to never ask questions? That sounds like a rather stupid statement to me, asking questions is the primary way that we learn. I see you missed the point of my post.... It's all in HOW you ask. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9245 Posted October 21 Author Share Posted October 21 39 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said: I don't know, are you using a phone maybe? With my laptop if I click it, it downloads to my download folder. I’m on my phone and it came up fine for me. Use a different browser maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 1 hour ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said: I don't know, are you using a phone maybe? With my laptop if I click it, it downloads to my download folder. I usually use Chrome. It would not work. I tried the latest MS Edge, and it worked fine. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9245 Posted October 22 Author Share Posted October 22 Interestingly, I just stumbled upon something very interesting in the book linked earlier “A Study of Colt Conversions and Other Percussion Revolvers.” On pages 57-58 and 60-62 an example of a Remington “Improves Army Revolver” (1858/64 New army cartridge conversion) is shown that was done in .45 Colt! And yes, it’s a six shot, so apparently Howell was not the first to figure out how to do that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 I went through a similar dilemma when i got my 45cal 58 conversion as to which cartridge i wanted to replicate for powder and charge. I considered 44rimfire 44 colt/rem and 46 short rimfire then to my surprise i found two picture of 45colt conversions online. You almost cant go wrong with between 25-30gr and 200-230grs. Remember specs were all over the place sometimes back then. Modern 38 44 and 45 brass would probably work in original 38 44 and 46 minus the ice cream scoop bullets on top and just might now in a tight bore. Great thread have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 9245 Well, before you jump up and "nay-say" Kenny Howell, I would suggest you look into the difference in the Rim Thickness and Rim Diameter of the original 45 Colt cartridge and the modern 45 Colt cartridge. You ever consider getting yourself a SASS membership Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 On 10/20/2024 at 3:31 PM, 9245 said: I’m also interested in Western 3 gun. W3G isn't around any longer...so... And It would be nice if you showed a little respect for folks that support the organization that runs this Forum...that you get to use for free. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 28 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: 9245 Well, before you jump up and "nay-say" Kenny Howell, I would suggest you look into the difference in the Rim Thickness and Rim Diameter of the original 45 Colt cartridge and the modern 45 Colt cartridge. You ever consider getting yourself a SASS membership I have some original "45 Colt"...the rim is almost non-existent. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9245 Posted October 22 Author Share Posted October 22 (edited) 2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: 9245 Well, before you jump up and "nay-say" Kenny Howell, I would suggest you look into the difference in the Rim Thickness and Rim Diameter of the original 45 Colt cartridge and the modern 45 Colt cartridge. You ever consider getting yourself a SASS membership It was not my intent to nay say at all, I am aware of the rim diameter difference, I was just pointing out that .45 Colt conversions existed before him, which I thought was interesting, that’s all, because I thought that they did not exist at all historically, hence this thread. But now I do, which I find interesting. So it seems that a modern .45 Colt conversion cylinder might actually be historically correct. Those conversions do not seem to have been common but it does now appear that they did exist. And yes, I intend to, but currently I do not have all the equipment I need and financially it will take a bit before I do, the rifle alone depending on which I choose could cost me around $1,200 if I want anything but a Rossi/Heritage 1892 (which I will if I am trying to carry a stand in for .44 Henry). Right now all I have is a brand new Pietta 1858 Remington, and an old as dirt ASM 1858 Remington with a broken hand that I have to get fixed somehow, and an original 1870s (ish) exposed hammer side by side Damascus barreled shotgun that needs new firing pin springs and has a broken extractor. (It has Birmingham England proofs, chambers 12 gauge but has a “14 bore,” and indeed measures 14 gauge at the muzzle on each side, which I take to mean a fixed modified choke, cylinder bore, beyond that I have no idea because there were a dozen or so makers with the same name in England at that time and many more in Belgium) and nothing else (that would be competition legal), so I need to correct that first, then buy the gun leather and the complete outfit. Once I get all that purchased and can actually attend my fist match I will get the membership, until then it would serve no purpose beyond holding my chosen name, which I have not yet picked (though I do have a near complete set of documented character notes already written, just no name yet). Edited October 22 by 9245 Fixed typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, 9245 said: It was not my intent to nay say at all, I am aware of the rim diameter difference, I was just pointing out that .45 Colt conversions existed before him, which I thought was interesting, that’s all, because I thought that they did not exist at all historically, hence this thread. But now I do, which I find interesting. So it seems that a modern .45 Colt conversion cylinder might actually be historically correct. Those conversions do not seem to have been common but it does now appear that they did exist. And yes, I intend to, but currently I do not have all the equipment I need and financially it will take a bit before I do, the rifle alone depending on which I choose could cost me around $1,200 if I want anything but a Rossi/Heritage 1892 (which I will if I am trying to carry a stand in for .44 Henry). Right now all I have is a brand new Pietta 1858 Remington, and an old as dirt ASM 1858 Remington with a broken hand that I have to get fixed somehow, and an original 1870s (ish) exposed hammer side by side Damascus barreled shotgun that needs new firing pin springs and has a broken extractor. (It has Birmingham England proofs, chambers 12 gauge but has a “14 bore,” and indeed measures 14 gauge at the muzzle on each side, which I take to mean a fixed modified choke, cylinder bore, beyond that I have no idea because there were a dozen or so makers with the same name in England at that time and many more in Belgium) and nothing else (that would be competition legal), so I need to correct that first, then buy the gun leather and the complete outfit. Once I get all that purchased and can actually attend my fist match I will get the membership, until then it would serve no purpose beyond holding my chosen name, which I have not yet picked (though I do have a near complete set of documented character notes already written, just no name yet). Look at VTI Parts ASM 1858 Hand, They carry a lot of parts for the import guns. See if this one fits your particular gun. If you disassemble yours and call them they will probably confirm the dimensions of their part and if it will fit. Edited October 22 by Griff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 This link to the Wolverine Rangers website Clubs shows the Cowboy Clubs in Michigan I shot the Michigan State Match "Range War" last month and had a great time. You might want to go visit some matches at clubs near you to see how the matches work and meet some folks. You do not have to buy everyting before you go visit a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 1 minute ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said: This link to the Wolverine Rangers website Clubs shows the Cowboy Clubs in Michigan I shot the Michigan State Match "Range War" last month and had a great time. You might want to go visit some matches at clubs near you to see how the matches work and meet some folks. You do not have to buy everyting before you go visit a match. Actually, preferably not. It pays to visit and converse with those out at the local ranges to see what they have, have tried, what works and what doesn't. Much better than asking here on the Wire where you really don't have any idea of who you're getting information from. (What their motivation might be, experience is... internet trolls exist, even here). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster Ron Wayne Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 When I started out shooting in SASS. I started out shooting 44 special on purpose , Because it was as close as I could come up with in Rifle & Pistol too a Original setup . I now often shoot 44 Russian because it's even closer. I can down load the 44 Russian to just about exact same cartridge as the 44 Henry cartridge. Picked up some 71-72 Open Top 44 Special Pistols from a Pard on the wire . Come to find out they was just about wore out . So I sent them off to Mike at Goongunworks for the Outlaw Mule treatment ! 44 Special guns are not to hard to find if you look around hard enough. I think I bought three 44 Special 1873'3 ( 24" 20" 19" ) off the Wire this past year , all about a week apart. No time like the present to jump in with both feet ! Good luck on your adventure. It has cost me a small fortune . But it was all worth it to me . The money pain is only temporary. The glory of having something almost no one else has is forever lol . So Saith the Rooster 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 9245!! I want to strongly suggest that you find a couple of local clubs to visit, talk to folks, ask, (if someone doesn’t offer first) to try some of the guns that others are using, (particularly those that you think you want to use, disregarding caliber) and familiarize yourself with how the game is played! You can wear jeans, a long sleeve shirt, and about anything but sneakers to participate! You don’t even have to have a cowboy hat! Contact the club match director or other members and explain that you’re wanting to get started! You can build your arsenal and rig and get the costume you really want as you go and learn the game in the meantime!! This will put you in a position to learn about your desired guns first hand and will also likely allow you to find what your wanting at reasonable prices! This is the way that many of us got started and it has certainly paid off for most of us!! NOTE: My first set of guns, (I borrowed guns for the first two matches) was a pair of Remington New Model Armies with R&D conversions! After about half a dozen matches, I sold them because they constantly beat my middle finger bloody at every match! You mileage may vary… 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 Preconceived notions cost problems and money. Go to a few matches before thinking you have it all figured out. I wish I had. I bought almost all of my stuff before going to a match, only to realize I wanted to shoot in a different category and needed all different guns. Those preconceived notions will get you. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 9245, Before you go investing amounts of money in that 1870ish Hammer Double, I strongly caution you AGAINST using a Damascus barrel shotgun for ANYTHING other than a wall decoration. Other than being pretty, Damascus barrels are prone to failure. There is no true test to certify them as "safe." And, "Birmingham" is a place, not a who. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 44 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: 9245, Before you go investing amounts of money in that 1870ish Hammer Double, I strongly caution you AGAINST using a Damascus barrel shotgun for ANYTHING other than a wall decoration. Other than being pretty, Damascus barrels are prone to failure. There is no true test to certify them as "safe." And, "Birmingham" is a place, not a who. I actually hate it when folks take their desires as more important then the wellbeing of their fellow posse members. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9245 Posted October 23 Author Share Posted October 23 3 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: 9245, Before you go investing amounts of money in that 1870ish Hammer Double, I strongly caution you AGAINST using a Damascus barrel shotgun for ANYTHING other than a wall decoration. Other than being pretty, Damascus barrels are prone to failure. There is no true test to certify them as "safe." And, "Birmingham" is a place, not a who. Yes, I am aware, it is the mark of the Birmingham England Proof house, it’s style is one of the only clues I have to the shotgun’s age. I am aware of the issues with Damascus barrels (actually technically laminated in this case), they are not considered safe for smokeless loads and should only be used with black powder, which I plan to do, using brass cases and square loads. The extractor still works, however one of the legs is broken off which allows it to spin freely when no shells are inserted. The screw retaining it is also stripped preventing me from removing it, and I suspect that the broken leg is seized in the hole. To fix it I would likely have to drill both out, rethread for a new modern screw, fabricate a new leg and weld it to the extractor. Not work I am able to do so I will have to hire it out. I expect it to be expensive, probably more than the shotgun is worth, so as long as the extractor still works I’m just ignoring it, I just have to be careful when closing it on empty chambers that the extractor is rotated back to where it should be. The real challenge is the firing pin springs, the originals were set and broken and thus far my attempts to find correct replacements have failed, the best I can do still results in the springs slipping over tge base of the firing pins after a cycle or two and then jamming the pins in the out position. Likewise one of the retaining nuts , or more accurately the receiver threads are mostly stripped so it is perpetually lose, but it is still tight enough to stay, the pin on that side is also shortened, it’s still long enough, but it appears to have snapped off in the past and then been refiled, should work fine though. When I got it it had clearly been someone’s wall hanger for decades, it was covered in soot, dust, gunk, spider webs, and rust and the hand guard iron looks so pitted that it could have been recovered from the bottom of the ocean. It was also completely covered in some kind of horrible red shellac, metal and all, that reminded me of the stuff the Soviets put on refinished Mosin Nagant stocks. Additionally the forend was completely cracked apart lengthwise in several places, had evidence of past repairs, and appeared to have come from a different shotgun and then force fit using some kind of bedding compound, one of the iron screws was also stripped out. One hammer was also slightly lose and had a mismatched screw. The side of one of the barrels was also badly pitted and had a fabric pattern imprinted in it, it looked like years ago it rusted to the inside of a shotgun sock. The stock was also badly dented. After months of work I removed the shellac, removed/steamed out 99% of dents in the stock, glued the forend back together to the point where you really have to examine it closely and know exactly where to look to be able to see the repaired cracks, fitted a new iron screw (and replaced the missing/rotted out area in the forend where the old one was with wood putty, refinished all the wood (it looks very nice now, though I deliberately stopped short of perfect, I still wanted it to look it’s age). I also sanded off the pitting on the barrel (again, deliberately imperfect, and I also did not want to remove too much metal) and refinished it in a slow rust blue, then sprayed it with a thin coat of clear coat lacquer, it now looks plum colored under artificial light and chocolate brown under sunlight. The rest of the metal was fine once the shellack was removed. I thin coated the entire thing in renaissance wax. Not much I could do about the mismatched hammer screw. The hammer itself tightens up when I shim it, I just have to figure out how to get the shim to stay in place. It does work though, even if kind of loose. Under all the crap though I found some nice light scrollwork engraving and solid metal with strong lock work. It looks to have been a fairly nice mid tier English shotgun at one point, and saw very extensive use, being field repaired several times over the years with whatever was on hand, and then finally put away and forgotten for a time before getting rediscovered and used as a decoration over someone’s wood burning fire place for several decades until eventually finding it’s way to me. I enjoyed the restoration and I like the idea of saving good old guns from a life as wall hangers or the scrap heap or parts bin to give them a new lease on life for the next generation. Also the price for reproduction side by sides was absurdly high for what they are, no way would I pay $1,200+ for one. The $350ish I have in this one between what I paid and materials though, yep, plus it is obviously is more authentic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 9245 No. You're not getting the point or not paying attention, or both. Your own dissertation should have given you great pause. By your own account, covered in RUST. Which suggests to me, a retired Gunsmith, you have absolutely no idea how much rust has infiltrated the laminations, leading to weak spots that are prone to failure. Hanging up over someone's fire place also creates corrosion in places you can't see. It will be my firm desire to not be anywhere near you when firing that shotgun. It isn't unsafe just with smokeless, it's unsafe with ANY propellant. Contrary to your belief, you aren't "restoring" it. Just making it look better. Put it back up on the Wall. 4 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilli GaHoot Galoot Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 4 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: By your own account, covered in RUST. That's the funny thing about rust, correctly controlled and kept in check it produces hands down one of the most beautiful firearm finishes you could ask for, ignored and left to run wild over decades it can cause irreparable hidden damage that can make even the best firearm unsafe to fire 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 1 hour ago, 9245 said: I am aware of the issues with Damascus barrels (actually technically laminated in this case), they are not considered safe for smokeless loads and should only be used with black powder, which I plan to do, using brass cases and square loads. Please take into consideration those around you that have no idea how crazy you're being with your choice of shotguns. If you want to shoot it, do so alone or with folks that are willing to take the risk. Oy... Phantom 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9245 Posted October 23 Author Share Posted October 23 28 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Please take into consideration those around you that have no idea how crazy you're being with your choice of shotguns. If you want to shoot it, do so alone or with folks that are willing to take the risk. Oy... Phantom Concern noted. Only really planning to run popgun loads anyway, first shots fired remotely. When I say covered in rust I mean light scattered spot rust and old shallow pits, it wasn’t a sewer pipe. Here are pictures of what it looked like before I did any work to it. The only really “rusty” spots were the forearm iron and inside the muzzles down to about 1 inch from the crowns. Some pitting as noted on the side of one barrel and a few widely scattered spots a few millimeter's across. There was some under the top rib at the muzzle that concerned me but it was just at the very end, the barrel passed the “ring” test along the full length so it appears to have been limited to that and the solder was still good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 For Pete's Sake put that shotgun back on the wall over the mantle where it belongs. If the barrel was that pitted you can be sure that there is corrosion along the barrel seams. It is a ticking time bomb just waiting for the most inopportune time and place to go off. You also don't need a $1000 plus shotgun for CAS. For less than $500.00 you can buy a perfectly functional SXS shotgun for CAS. You can pick up a Stoeger off Gun Broker today for $499.99. Heck while not the best for CAS you can buy a Stevens 311. Being as you have the time, if you are patient and bid carefully you should be able to by a Stoeger or Stevens SXS in the $300.00 range. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 I don't live or shoot anywhere near the Michigan area, so I'm unlikely to be standing next to you if (more likely when) this thing blows up in your face, BUT as a long time shooter who has seen a few gnarly injuries I feel compelled to say that you've been given good advice by some very knowledgeable people. I suggest you not only 'note' what they've said, but give it some very serious thought. Obviously your safety is your business, but in a SASS match you won't be alone on the firing line. There will be plenty of other folks, some of them likely women and children. Do you really want to risk a chunk of that gun hitting a posse member in a vital area just to be period correct? 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9245 Posted October 23 Author Share Posted October 23 5 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: For Pete's Sake put that shotgun back on the wall over the mantle where it belongs. If the barrel was that pitted you can be sure that there is corrosion along the barrel seams. It is a ticking time bomb just waiting for the most inopportune time and place to go off. You also don't need a $1000 plus shotgun for CAS. For less than $500.00 you can buy a perfectly functional SXS shotgun for CAS. You can pick up a Stoeger off Gun Broker today for $499.99. Heck while not the best for CAS you can buy a Stevens 311. Being as you have the time, if you are patient and bid carefully you should be able to by a Stoeger or Stevens SXS in the $300.00 range. But are they side hammer? I don’t like the internal hammer ones, for a variety of reasons. The cheapest side hammer I have seen has been around $1,000+, which I find to be absurd for what it is, even if I could afford it (and I can’t). In a perfect world I would use a pump, but with an arbitrary 2 round limit per the rules it would not make any sense as I would actually be putting myself at a disadvantage because I could only load one shell at a time and have to pump twice, with a side by side I can load both at once and open, close, and cock the hammers in less time than it would take to do those pumps, plus I can get the second shot off quicker. Side hammers give less resistance opening and closing because you are not working against internal hammer springs, and at least to me sweeping my hand over the top to cock the hammers is a quick and natural move, so to me I feel like it is a bit quicker. Also I just prefer the look of side hammers and feel like it fits the character and time period better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 Time to run the troll alert up the flagpole? No matter what anyone says the OP is just going to argue about it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9245 Posted October 23 Author Share Posted October 23 17 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: I don't live or shoot anywhere near the Michigan area, so I'm unlikely to be standing next to you if (more likely when) this thing blows up in your face, BUT as a long time shooter who has seen a few gnarly injuries I feel compelled to say that you've been given good advice by some very knowledgeable people. I suggest you not only 'note' what they've said, but give it some very serious thought. Obviously your safety is your business, but in a SASS match you won't be alone on the firing line. There will be plenty of other folks, some of them likely women and children. Do you really want to risk a chunk of that gun hitting a posse member in a vital area just to be period correct? I will only use it after extensive test firings, as it stands I have every confidence that it will be safe with black powder, especially with the pop gun loads that I intend to use. As far as being period correct, if that is not a concern then why not just use a semi auto magazine fed bullpup? Since authenticity doesn’t matter I don’t see why not, and heck, I’ll just use a CZ Scorpion for the rifle and I think a Glock 19 will work far better than an SAA. I’m being facetious of course, but my point is if you are not concerned with being period correct than why bother even trying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 8 minutes ago, 9245 said: But are they side hammer? I don’t like the internal hammer ones, for a variety of reasons. The cheapest side hammer I have seen has been around $1,000+, which I find to be absurd for what it is, even if I could afford it (and I can’t). In a perfect world I would use a pump, but with an arbitrary 2 round limit per the rules it would not make any sense as I would actually be putting myself at a disadvantage because I could only load one shell at a time and have to pump twice, with a side by side I can load both at once and open, close, and cock the hammers in less time than it would take to do those pumps, plus I can get the second shot off quicker. Side hammers give less resistance opening and closing because you are not working against internal hammer springs, and at least to me sweeping my hand over the top to cock the hammers is a quick and natural move, so to me I feel like it is a bit quicker. Also I just prefer the look of side hammers and feel like it fits the character and time period better. Don't tell @Widder, SASS #59054 or any of @Chicken George's sons that a pump action is slowing them down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 And don't tell Smokestack that his 87 is slowing him down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9245 Posted October 23 Author Share Posted October 23 5 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: And don't tell Smokestack that his 87 is slowing him down. I didn’t say that a pump couldn’t be fast, just that with a 2 round limit a side by side is faster. I could show you that video of Jerry setting his revolver speed record but that doesn’t mean that a revolver is faster than a semi auto either. With the same amount of practice the side by side would be faster. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 32 minutes ago, 9245 said: But are they side hammer? I don’t like the internal hammer ones, for a variety of reasons. The cheapest side hammer I have seen has been around $1,000+, which I find to be absurd for what it is, even if I could afford it (and I can’t). In a perfect world I would use a pump, but with an arbitrary 2 round limit per the rules it would not make any sense as I would actually be putting myself at a disadvantage because I could only load one shell at a time and have to pump twice, with a side by side I can load both at once and open, close, and cock the hammers in less time than it would take to do those pumps, plus I can get the second shot off quicker. Side hammers give less resistance opening and closing because you are not working against internal hammer springs, and at least to me sweeping my hand over the top to cock the hammers is a quick and natural move, so to me I feel like it is a bit quicker. Also I just prefer the look of side hammers and feel like it fits the character and time period better. There is a Stevens 235 on GB BIN for $650 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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