Winchester 1897 Shotgun: Your issue and what it took to fix it.

["Big Boston"]

I've owned a few 1897 shotguns, and some needed some major resurrection work. I'm not a gunsmith therefore I've relied on online content to get me going in the right direction. 

 

I recently had a issue with the operation of the carrier, and that lead me on a journey and I ended up on a site I've not visited for a while. The parts disgram has to be the best one out there.

 

https://marauder.homestead.com/files/97parts.htm

 

In addition the write-up on slicking is pretty spot on as well. 

 

https://marauder.homestead.com/files/Model97slick.html

 

But I digress, I'll list one of my issues, and how I fixed it, and I encourage others to do the same. But please, limit it to one issue, no complete restoration posts.

 

I start it off, my carrier seemed to have a hesitation when asked to move up. As the action slide was on it's forward travel there seemed to be a bauble or hesitation, like it was hanging up on something. Most of the common reasons didn't seem to apply. 

 

The issue at the core was with part 71, the action slide lock. The action slide lock is spring loaded and pushes against the left side of the action. The has a recess that pushes the lock into the carrier in the hammer down position. The operation of the lock is a bit more involved, but for my issue the outer edge of the forward portion of the was a bit wavy from many years of operation and poor lubrication. My solution was to lap that surface straight, with minimal metal removal, and that seemed to make things work better. This eliminated the slight bauble. 

 

 

 

These are from my spare parts bin, the not so good stuff that may be better than some broken pieces. 

 

Just a bit of a sidebar, there are a few parts in this operation that were hand fitted, at least according to my experience. Parts #63 the action slide release plunger is one piece that comes in various lengths, it pushes against the lock enough to overcome the spring and pushes the forward part of the lock into the carrier, basically disconnects the lock. The lock itself has a nub on it and this nub appears to be a tuning point as well. I've noticed a bit of variations there. This nub rides against the side of the hammer, if the nub is too long it makes a mark in the side of the trigger, too short and the lock doesn't release as it should than fired. Note: the variations here are very subtle. These are more of an issue in guns that have a lot or wear and ones that have had some part replaced with good used ones. The parts have to fit. Or IOW, some parts have to be fitted. 

 

 

 

Note: I didn't go into the details, kept it at an overview. 

 

I've worked on perhaps a dozen 1897s, some complete resurrections, and after all that, I'm sure my paygrade is still not anywhere near expert. 

 

Big Boston

Edited October 14 by "Big Boston"

[Philosopher]

Thank you for sharing and helping to keep these old firearms in service.

["Big Boston"]

I was hoping that there would be other contributors, but I'll not let that stop me from posting another in the series or "My issue and what it took to fix it."

 

I had an issue with the "fitting" of the barrel chamber ring. Note: I'll do my best to follow the Winchester parts diagram naming convention for any of the parts I mention. I'd further suggest looking at the diagram in the manual, or online at https://marauder.homestead.com/files/97parts.htm Coincidently a fellow Cowboy over one province had a similar issue and his gunsmith "fitted" the ring on his shotgun, and performed some other repair work. 

 

That's a bit of history, having two similar issues with a month or so warrant a bit of a write-up in my humble opinion. Lets start by identifying the part that may have fitting issues. The part, as already identified is the barrel chamber ring, part #7 in the diagram. 

 

 

Before we jump into the how to, I'll go a bit into the theory and explain how I think this fitting issue can occur on a shotgun that has been around for decades. If you replace the barrel, the good book calls for a new barrel chamber ring to be fitted as well. If the adjusting sleeve is swapped out, the alignment of the ring and chamber should be checked as well. I've also run across several 1897 shotguns where the serial number on the action and the barrel are not the same. Not that this can't be done, or there is anything wrong with doing so, but if the alignment of the ring and chamber are not correct, you will have issues. FYI: back in the day replacing the extension, part #5, was a routine gunsmith job, Winchester sold the parts and tools. Today, parts and tools are the issue, and that calls for a bit of innovation, accomplishing the same results with the parts you have. 

 

Before we go down this rabbit hole, I'll post these instructions on how to align a new ring.

 

If you are fitting a replacement barrel and want you original barrel to fit the gun.

 

10.       You will now need to fit a new chamber ring. This requires a set of 3 reamers per gauge, plus a 36” handle.

 

11.       Install the new chamber ring, NOTE: the ID of the chamber ring will be smaller than the ID of the chamber. You will push the # 1 reamer all the way through the new chamber ring. Clean out the chips and cutting oil. Be sure to use a good grade of cutting oil.

 

12.       Pull the #2 reamer through the new chamber ring to mate it with the chamber. Be careful not to go to deep. If you do you will have an over sized chamber. Clean out the chips and cutting oil.

 

13.       Pull the #3 reamer into the chamber ring to set the headspace. Because, if you go deep you will have excessive headspace.  Clean out the chips and cutting oil. 

 

These instructions are an excerpt from a sleeve installation set of instructions. I'll not be running through those instructions step by step, however I'll show you how to accomplish the same results with common and available tools. 

 

I'm assuming that the question at this juncture of my post would be, what are the symptoms that indicate a  barrel chamber ring alignment issue? This issue usually come to light when the shooter buys new ammunition, and after firing pumping the action is a bi stiff or worse case scenario, the action locks up. The common diagnosis is that the ammunition is the issue, and to some extent that is true. What actually has happened is that your ammunition has diagnosed the problem that you were unaware of. 

 

The brass head on a shotshell is very forgiving, it expands when fired and spring back a bit after the pressure goes down, and the hull is easily extracted. However, steel heads or for that matter any material other than solid brass vs brass plated steel or some other metal, has very little spring back and if the barrel chamber ring is even a bit proud of the chamber, the round sticks. Brass springs back, steel or aluminum does not. 

 

If you are like me, you only shoot shotshells that have about half the pressure of a normal shotshell and you only shoot shotshells that have a solid brass head. But if I want to test a shotgun, here's an example of a good shotshell to test with. First, it is a quality made shell, loaded to pressures that will operate either a recoil or gas operated semi-automatic, and it has a plated solid steel head. 

 

 

I did have a few fired shells from the last 1897 that I fixed the chamber and barrel chamber ring alignment on, unfortunately they went out with the trash. Fortunately I still have test ammo, and my shotgun still has a very small amount of misalignment, so I can get another example. 

 

 

This hull extracted normally, and this is the point at which I said good enough is good enough. The diameter of the head between the rim and the mark (visible 2/3s of the way up) varies from 0.8115" to 0.814". Although not round, is about what you can expect from a hand tool rework. The method I used was describe to me by a experienced now retired gunsmith. I believe his works were, that's about as good as it gets without new parts and the Winchester reamer set. In addition, the metal removal required was in the wrong direction, any significant metal removal would make the bolt/firing pin to chamber alignment even worse. 

 

Please note, this is not a Turnbull Restorations tutorial, this is a field fix, well a home shop repair to be honest. 

 

 

 

This shows the misalignment, and you can see that the contact between the barrel and the ring is decent as well. I recently set the barrel back another notch, the contact may be a bit too aggressive. But in all honesty, this shotgun was one I resurrected. It was a auction item advertised as being in "good working condition, esthetically a bit rough", when "a parts only" gun would have been a more accurate description. My parts replaced list reached over $300 and hours of labour was substantial. 

 

Unfortunately you cannot work on just one issue on a 1897, you have to look at all the parts in the area as they all interact. It's not that you need extraordinary skills to fix them, but you have to be aware of the parts interaction. 

 

This is a view of the orientation of the ring and barrel. Ideally the gap between the barrel and ring should be nil. 

 

 

I noticed that in the instructions that headspace was mentioned. Therefore I felt compelled to check it on the shotgun I'm working on. As I do not have a 12 gauge headspace gauge, I deprimed and sized a hull. I chambered the hull and pushed the bolt forward with my thumb. 

 

 

A bit of a task without three hands, but I measured the gap at about 0.016". Is that a lot, it doesn't appear to be, my chinese copy has a bit more generous gap.

 

 

So I assume it's safe to call it good. Bloody heckimagosh, look at those rough surfaces. I suppose it's not good to look too closely.

 

BTW, the firing pin sticks out fairly far, and it's not an inertia firing pin. It protrudes a good 0.080". SAAMI lists headspace at 0.0624" min to 0.742". Keep in mind, when my shotgun was built SAAMI was still a few years away (1926). And it was a few more years before any standards were published. As can be seen in the next photo, even with a slightly lightened hammer spring, that primer gets a good wack. Yes, it is not centered but it is a bit better after working on the barrel chamber ring. 

 

 

I marked the rounds head so I could keep track of orientation. My chamber was not centered, therefore only about 1/3 of the circumference needed a bit of "fitting". You can study the job that needs to be done and come up with your plan, but I just taped some 400 grit emery to a socket and clamped it in a vice. That way I had some control at keeping the inner surface parallel. YMMV, but it's not the transportation, it's what you get at the end of the journey that counts. 

 

My first step was to establish the area that needed some relief. To that end I fired a marked shell, checked for a high part. I removed the barrel chamber ring and marked the area to be worked on. 

 

First, there is a basic tool you need for working on a 100 year old 1897, and that is a hand held impact driver. Mine is just a inexpensive one from Canadian Tire. Harbor Freight likely has a similar tool.

 

 

 

I removed both screws, there is another one on the opposite side. I just used a fired shotshell and a drift to tap it out. It is a friction fit, a slight interference, nothing too rude. 

 

 

And here is the barrel chamber ring marked and ready for fitting. 

 

 

As you can see about 1/3 of the ring needs a bit of work. All in all I removed about 0.002" from that area. Keep in mind that I'd already removed metal a few days ago, to get it to the point where a shell would eject, not stick in the chamber. This was just a bit of fine tuning. 

 

 

This is the action back together. I took the opportunity to lightly lap the ring and also did a bit of fitting to the back of the barrel. IMHO the fit is good now. BTW, I did have to tighten the sleeve one notch to maintain fit, remove that last bit of wobble. 

 

Big Boston. 

Edited October 20 by "Big Boston"

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I do most of the work on my pistols and rifles, and I even have a couple of '97 DVD's, but if any of mine have a problem, I know people. 

[John Kloehr]

I'll do a problem without a fix.

 

Just shot my pair of '97s today. One of them resists pulling back on the pump grip, a twist left or right hangs but if I am right in the middle, the pump is smooth as can be.

 

I'll be doing a deep clean in the next couple weeks so may find out why, open to hearing things to look for in advance of doing so.

["Big Boston"]

I have an idea about your issue. I'd check the slide arm. I've found as the gun wears the arm needs, or could use, a bit of a curve to it. Nothing silly, just a subtle bend. It just mild steel, you can bend it with your hands.

 

I discovered this on my first 1897. I'd worked on Remington 870 and know what it took to make them run. So I made the arm as straight as an arrow, it didn't touch anywhere. Instead of smooth I got grief. The 1897 is not an 870. 

 

 

What works for me is a bend that pushes a bit to the outside. You can see the slight wear pattern. The left picture is of a clone, on the right is a Winchester. May not be your issue, but not too involved and you can always go back. Post pictures if wish, sometimes the issue can be seen easily by a shooter that has had the same problem. 

 

Big Boston

Edited October 20 by "Big Boston"

[Artemus Von Schutze]

This is great stuff. I had your first issue at Land Run while shooting WB. Guess I'll have to see if that was the source of the problem.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

On 10/19/2024 at 10:48 AM, "Big Boston" said:

On one of my 97's, the barrel was "loose" when it was attached to the receiver, it wobbled a little.  Even with the above picture thread thingee on the tightest setting AND a spacer ring, it was just too work to give a properly tight fit.   So, I replaced the above pictured thread thingee, and now the gun is as it should be.