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Why 20 ga Lever shotguns - but not pump?


Seminole Sam

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9 hours ago, Erasmus said:

It's not for everyone, but it's certainly not "difficult". 

But it is for those that are trying to save the planet from the evils of plastic wad pollution...

 

Phantom

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3 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Cleaning a double of BP with plastic wads is easier and faster than cleaning after smokeless.

Cleaning a double of BP without plastic wads is even easier!

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8 minutes ago, Erasmus said:

Cleaning a double of BP without plastic wads is even easier!

Guessing so, but loading the shells I imagine takes quite a bit longer than cranking em out like smokeless ones! 

A couple squirts of Windex w/vinegar down the barrels followed in a couple minutes by a quarter sheet of paper towels,done!

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14 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Guessing so, but loading the shells I imagine takes quite a bit longer than cranking em out like smokeless ones! 

A couple squirts of Windex w/vinegar down the barrels followed in a couple minutes by a quarter sheet of paper towels,done!

 

You can load fiber wads on your MEC if you want to load plastic hulls. 

 

I recreationally shoot some old guns. They were made when fiber wads were about the only game in town (just about). With varying quality/hardness of lead and no shot cups they tended to pattern somewhat poorly and were often choked very full. I can bore out the choke, use spreader wads in shot cups, or use fiber wads to get them to pattern a little less tightly; so I just use fiber wads in those loads. 

 

There's still a whole slew of people loading fiber wads with black or smokeless for various reasons (especially 16 ga shooters). Not having to stare at plastic shot cups left by other hunters while walking up pheasants or decoying ducks is a couple of good ones. Not having to bend over and pick up shot cups on the cowboy range is another one. 

Edited by Erasmus
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31 minutes ago, Erasmus said:

Not having to stare at plastic shot cups left by other hunters while walking up pheasants or decoying ducks is a couple of good ones. Not having to bend over and pick up shot cups on the cowboy range is another one. 

You really have an...issue...with plastic wads.

 

Perhaps you should make peace with plastic wads.

 

Phantom

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It's really very straightforward...

The only legal pump shotgun is the Winchester 97.   It was only ever available in 12 or 16 gauge, never 20, so therefore 20 gauge is not legal for a pump shotgun.

Now, it is true that the Winchester 87 was only ever chambered in 12 and 10 gauge, but there is no rule that says that the 87 is the only legal lever action shotgun.   Therefore, if anyone were to theoretically make an exposed hammer tubular magazine 20 gauge lever action shotgun, either an 87 or something else, it would be, at least theoretically, legal.   

Why?   Because those are the rules as written.   We may not like them or think they should be different, or think they are fine as is, but they are the rules and we "agree" to play by them in this game.



 

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Can't say I've ever noticed a plastic wad while hunting. But I've seen plenty of expended hulls in the woods. So it wouldn't really matter what material the wad was made of.

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19 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Can't say I've ever noticed a plastic wad while hunting. But I've seen plenty of expended hulls in the woods. So it wouldn't really matter what material the wad was made of.

 

I primarily duck hunt, and in my area that often means hunting in a high traffic public place. Plastic wads (and hulls) absolutely litter the marsh. The wads tend to float and wash up on the windward side of the levee or get stuck in bushes. The hulls sometimes float and wash up on the levee, or often sink where the base (brass colored steel) eventually rusts and the plastic hull gets stuck in the mud or washes up after detaching. When I regularly hunted the national wildlife refuge (that was) near me I would spend time in the preseason fixing blinds and picking up contractor bags full of hulls, wads, decoys, and food wrappers (among other things). 

 

In cowboy shooting most people pick up their hulls and throw them away or reload them, sometimes I see people picking up wads down range after the shoot as we clean up plates. Sometimes it's obvious the club just doesn't care and allows the range to become littered with plastic wads.

 

I, personally, prefer to keep my favorite places clean for the benefit of myself and my pards. Other people are obviously happy to recreate among their own detritus. 

Edited by Erasmus
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5 minutes ago, Erasmus said:

I would spend time in the preseason fixing blinds and picking up contractor bags full of hulls, wads, decoys, and food wrappers (among other things). 

Thank you, too bad more folks didn't do the same.

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7 minutes ago, Erasmus said:

I, personally, prefer to keep my favorite places clean for the benefit of myself and my pards. Other people are obviously happy to recreate among their own detritus.

Keeping things clean...and what it is that is polluting are two separate things.

 

And are you sure the use of the word "detritus" is appropriate as used?

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Erasmus said:

 

You can load fiber wads on your MEC if you want to load plastic hulls. 

 

I recreationally shoot some old guns. They were made when fiber wads were about the only game in town (just about). With varying quality/hardness of lead and no shot cups they tended to pattern somewhat poorly and were often choked very full. I can bore out the choke, use spreader wads in shot cups, or use fiber wads to get them to pattern a little less tightly; so I just use fiber wads in those loads. 

 

There's still a whole slew of people loading fiber wads with black or smokeless for various reasons (especially 16 ga shooters). Not having to stare at plastic shot cups left by other hunters while walking up pheasants or decoying ducks is a couple of good ones. Not having to bend over and pick up shot cups on the cowboy range is another one. 

Well, I'm back from firing a shotgun for the first time since 1980.  I enjoyed it a lot and learned some things.

 

I cannot make a good Nitro card, at least for now.  I have ones from Ballistic Products and I'll have to use those,  My cardboard wads worked, but compress FAR too much.  I planned on using 3 or 4 and as instead using like 20+ of them.  Used all the ones I had made up on todays 15 test rounds.  I have sheet cork coming in from Amazon and I'll use that after this.  I may even try a discarded foam-core sign from work, but I do indeed need something thicker that won't compress - like the Fiber wad I'm trying to replace.

44 grains of black powder seems really weak to me.  It did work and the patterns were even good, but after my 15 test rounds I fired a few commercial upland loads and they were WAY more powerful.  I'm going to make some adjustments and go back to the range tomorrow with a different load.  My loads were a joy to shoot - but may be too light to work for this.

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Commercial nitro cards are obviously very compressed and hard cardboard, replicating that wouldn't be difficult but you might be spending a lot of time with a punch. 

 

For the fiber wads, I would imagine stacks of newsprint type paper might be effective. Cork will work too. If you continue loading in plastic hulls and you want to crimp you have to build a tall enough wad column which can be a chore. If you were using brass hulls, or if you don't mind gluing in overshot cards you can get away with a much shorter wad column. 

 

While 44 grains might have seemed like a very weak load, it's likely enough to drop a popper and the decreased recoil can be nice. I'm using closer to 60 grains, but in large volume brass hulls, which gets me about 800 fps with a 7/8oz shot charge. I've not had a single failure to drop a target. Your commercial loads are probably making 1100-1300 fps; overkill for our game. 

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18 minutes ago, Seminole Sam said:

I fired a few commercial upland loads and they were WAY more powerful.

You seem bound and determined to make loading shotshells as difficult as possible.  That is fine, it is a learning curve.  Remember the rules - Magnum and high velocity shotgun shells are not allowed.  Upland loads are way OVERKILL for cowboy shooting.

 

 

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All that to avoid plastic!;)

42 grains will take em down every time. 

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1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

You seem bound and determined to make loading shotshells as difficult as possible.  That is fine, it is a learning curve.  Remember the rules - Magnum and high velocity shotgun shells are not allowed.  Upland loads are way OVERKILL for cowboy shooting.

I would hope so.  I only fired commercial  rounds as a basis for comparison.  They were not comfortable to fire, even with this relatively heavy double barrel.

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19 hours ago, Erasmus said:

 Loading brass is probably off topic for this thread but, it's easy, and doesn't require another loader. Though if you load for pistol or rifle that will make priming easier. 

 

For me, I deprime with a pin punch, I prime with an RCBS shell holder on my turret press. I toss in a scoop of FFg powder, press in a nitro card with a dowel, wipe a bit of lube on a cushion wad and press that in. Then a scoop of shot, press in an overshot card, run a bead of Elmer's School Glue around the card. Once they're dry I put them in boxes until my next shoot. 

 

My light load of black doesn't requiring resizing the hulls. The brass hulls are heavy enough to generally come out smoothly. 

 

A 1-1/4 oz (lead shot) scoop of bismuth 3s over a 1-1/4oz (shot) scoop of black FFg kills ducks well so long as you give them a bit more lead. 

 

It's not for everyone, but it's certainly not "difficult". 

 

I've also used 18.0 grains of Red Dot under 1-1/8oz shot. It chrono around 900 fps if I recall correctly. 

you make it sound easy , but you must realize some of us are not as young and easily retrained as others , iim looking at this , but ive got three cartridges i shoot that im setting up for at this point and not enough free time for any at the moment ---dont let anyone tell you retirement is free time to do as you please , im not sure how i had time to work before retirement 

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12 hours ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

I load trap loads too using the same press and settings I use for much lighter loads for CAS.  I just use different wads, a different charge bar, different powder and different powder bushings for the CAS loads.  I don't save much loading for clays over buying commercial rounds but was able to keep shooting when ammo disappeared for over a year.  However, my 7/8 oz loads are considerably less expensive than low noise low recoil AAs and always available unlike lnlr AAs.

im not loading trap loads anymore - i shoot a lot les trap than SASS but i hear what your saying here , i did load about 7k rounds of SASS before my hornaday 366 gave me enough fits to change to the PW im currently using , i have a fair supply of trap rounds in the basement - enough to shoot all the trap ill shoot the rest of my life , and enough SASS loads to carry me for a good number of years so perhaps ill get the time to mess about with brass cases soon , 

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23 hours ago, watab kid said:

 so perhaps ill get the time to mess about with brass cases soon , 

 

If you do decide to load brass cases and can't find answers to your questions feel free to hit me up. I enjoy loading them and will happily pass on that gouge without any gatekeeping, naive semantic nit picking, or making it overly difficult (as would most of the pards here). 

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32 minutes ago, Erasmus said:

 

If you do decide to load brass cases and can't find answers to your questions feel free to hit me up. I enjoy loading them and will happily pass on that gouge without any gatekeeping, naive semantic nit picking, or making it overly difficult (as would most of the pards here). 

i appreciate that , thank you very much , i just made a note of that , as soon as i complete my 4570  stuff ill look into this , it does sound fun and i love the old west look and feel of them , i have a feeling id enjoy this a lot , 

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In the early years of our sport, Marlin had produced a 12ga and 20ga hammer pump shotgun and it was legal to use in our sport. I owned one. In  1998,  Marlin published a letter stating all old Marlin Shotguns where not safe for use with modern ammo and all Marlin shotguns and any other older pump shotguns were banned and the rules were changed to stated Winchester Model 97 shotguns only. A few gunsmiths had converted 16 ga 97's to 20 ga, but they were also outlawed. According to the Winchester history, only 2 prototype 20ga 97's were produced but they where never released to the public. When the Winchester 87 clones were built, there were plans for a 20ga model and I was on the waiting list for one, but they ended up not being produced. Since my preferred shotgun has always been a 20ga, I researched them to find the different 20ga shotguns that I could use over the years. I have a original 20ga double barrel hammer shotgun from the 1930's that I use sometimes and carry as a backup shotgun.   If you Goggle those questions , you will find old SASS and CAS City wires posts that discussed this topic over the years.

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