Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted September 27 Author Share Posted September 27 48 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: It's R rated and in the adults only section of the Wire. I think that depends. It's been a while but I shot a match where you started holding a lasso and at the beep tried to throw it over a fence post downrange. If you made it you got a 5 second bonus. I did make it, but thought it was a bad idea. Sometimes the 'cutesy' ideas end up determining who wins the match, which I'm not fond of. I get that and agree it's a BAD idea. I stated that that was not what I'm talking about. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Seamus Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 5 hours ago, McCandless said: Remember, T.O.s are wearing earplugs, too. And then some of us are about deaf to begin with then stick these rubber things in our ears. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 (edited) 6 hours ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said: Are you saying a shooter shouldn't have to start holding a coil of rope and after signal, hang it on a post? Or start with a bouquet of flowers in their hands? etc. Now I'm not talking about throwing a hat on a weather vane and it being a time-bonus if you make it or anything that makes luck change your time. But, I think we should certainly NOT cut out all mandatory before-the-clock (or after) prop manipulation. If the ACTION/ PROP manipulation in some way carries over into the TIMED portion of the stage - of course that cannot be disregarded. But it does not require a shooter to say a certain line to do so either. If I write the stage as such: Shooter begins at tombstone with THREE flowers in hand; signify ready by saying, "Let me pay my respects" - at beep: place ALL THREE flowers in vase. One second penalty for any flower that is not in vase at stage end. Then (stage instruction). The stage is not materially changed if the shooter says my written line or says "Shooter Ready". But they still have to participate in the stage affecting components. But if the action/ prop manipulation does NOT extend into the timed stage component - then No, there is zero reason to require any shooter to participate - offer the option to those who want to and don't worry about those who don't. We offer a buffet to our shooters - some will want to experience every flavor offered and others will fully satiate themselves on soft serve ice cream alone. As long as they pay their admission and play within the rules - I see no reason to force them to eat a meal they don't want. Edited September 28 by Creeker, SASS #43022 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Snorter Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 As to finish lines, there is the story about the model who drank varnish, a horrible story, but a beautiful finish. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 My finish line is usually "it was an edge!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Snorter Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 Sharp insight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingSnake Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 I might try “spotters beware, I’m shootin edgers”. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idaho Gunslinger Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 1 hour ago, KingSnake said: I might try “spotters beware, I’m shootin edgers”. Just look back at all the spotters and say "Good Luck" 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 28 Share Posted September 28 We had an “outhouse prop” sometimes started sitting in it, it shooting out a window of it. I once had it set a few feet to right of starting position. Shooter stated with “stick of dynamite” in hand. At the beep toss it into outhouse and take up gun. If dynamite stayed in outhouse it was a 5 second bonus. Most got the bonus. many shooters watched it to see if it stayed in. (Wasting time) one shooter just thru it down in disgust like it ruined his whole day. I thought it was kinda neat. Haven’t done it again. (May next time I write a match!!!!) 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 14 hours ago, Hoss said: We had an “outhouse prop” sometimes started sitting in it, it shooting out a window of it. I once had it set a few feet to right of starting position. Shooter stated with “stick of dynamite” in hand. At the beep toss it into outhouse and take up gun. If dynamite stayed in outhouse it was a 5 second bonus. Most got the bonus. many shooters watched it to see if it stayed in. (Wasting time) one shooter just thru it down in disgust like it ruined his whole day. I thought it was kinda neat. Haven’t done it again. (May next time I write a match!!!!) I would do my best, ask you if something like that was likely to occur again in the future then adjust my attendance plans accordingly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 (edited) 2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said: I would do my best, ask you if something like that was likely to occur again in the future then adjust my attendance plans accordingly. Although I know most really competitive shooters dislike bonuses... I kinda look at them as a "free miss" and actually will try to shoot a little faster. (Although, "faster" in my case is relatively subjective)! Other than target size and distance, doing stuff "on the clock" is another marker for an "old school" match. Along with silliness like: Edited September 29 by Griff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 There are shooting bonuses, which cease to be ‘bonuses’ as soon as someone earns one and there are non shooting bonuses. I’m not at all opposed to shooting bonuses and very much opposed to non shooting bonuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 7 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: There are shooting bonuses, which cease to be ‘bonuses’ as soon as someone earns one and there are non shooting bonuses. I’m not at all opposed to shooting bonuses and very much opposed to non shooting bonuses. Likewise... even though as an VERY occasional thing, they can be a hoot! (If enough thought is put into them to make them entertaining). (One per match is far too often, and only at a club monthly, for anything like an annual or above it should verboten, or prohibido). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 And this is where the challenge comes in for stage writers to add in bits of Cowboy entertainment without handicapping anyone and perhaps, skewing the match while also adding to the Cowboy aspect of the match. If I wanted just a shooting match, I'd do IPSC or IDPA or Steel Challenge, but I like the Cowboy aspect and with that, I have found that folks aren't as "cut-throat" as I found in IPSC. If CAS gets to the point of shoot as fast as you can while doing the minimum "Cowboy" and my matches are avoided because I add, what I feel are fun aspects that CAS and SASS were based on, I'll go on about my business. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 I have been known to say, "I don't remember the line." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 3 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: I have been known to say, "I don't remember the line." If I say that, 15 folks yell out the line... so I just tell the TO, "no I ain't ready, but start when YOU are," or my tag line below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 7 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: And this is where the challenge comes in for stage writers to add in bits of Cowboy entertainment without handicapping anyone and perhaps, skewing the match while also adding to the Cowboy aspect of the match. If I wanted just a shooting match, I'd do IPSC or IDPA or Steel Challenge, but I like the Cowboy aspect and with that, I have found that folks aren't as "cut-throat" as I found in IPSC. If CAS gets to the point of shoot as fast as you can while doing the minimum "Cowboy" and my matches are avoided because I add, what I feel are fun aspects that CAS and SASS were based on, I'll go on about my business. So you believe that on the clock non shooting requirements add to the cowboy aspect of matches? But if you take those same aspects and take them off the clock it's no longer cowboy? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dapper Dave Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 I am barely getting started, only shot a qualifier, not sure when I'll get to shoot a match, and I am already having fun. If I need so say a movie line or something to "set the stage", heck, I'm good with that - I am a failed romantic, after all! Right now it's the whole dress up game, harkening back to yesteryear, hoping to move to spending time with friends and neighbors, and the only time I worry about winning shooting awards is at my work qualification! But I would be goofy..."Curly Bill, drop that piano!" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 (edited) 15 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said: So you believe that on the clock non shooting requirements add to the cowboy aspect of matches? But if you take those same aspects and take them off the clock it's no longer cowboy? Yes, personally I do, but popular opinion has changed the way I write stages and you have seen this. You have to admit there has been a change in the content of my stages in the direction of how the trend is moving with regard to closer, faster and less non-shooting activities on the clock. And not necessarily when taken off the clock that it makes the match "less cowboy", just takes away from the stage... for ME. Edited October 1 by The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 (edited) On 9/29/2024 at 9:34 AM, Captain Bill Burt said: There are shooting bonuses, which cease to be ‘bonuses’ as soon as someone earns one and there are non shooting bonuses. I’m not at all opposed to shooting bonuses and very much opposed to non shooting bonuses. I do use bonuses occasionally as a means to lower the penalty for a miss on a more difficult target where you expect some shooters to have problems. For example: "No miss counted on flying clay bird, shot with the rifle, but a 2 sec bonus if hit." The miss on the bird is then only a 2 sec loss (only if somebody else hits it), and shooter does not incur a scored miss to mess up an otherwise clean match. But if a shooter can hit the bird, they get a small gain. (We actually did that clay bird rifle shot and saw about 20% hits --and a LOT of fun !). But I do avoid bonuses for non-shooting tasks or large bonuses that, of themselves, are likely to decide matches. I once shot a match that had 15-second bonuses for both, a hand axe throw and a knife throw. As soon as someone got both bonuses, the match became pointless, IMO. Edited October 7 by Dusty Devil Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 On 10/1/2024 at 5:59 AM, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: Yes, personally I do, but popular opinion has changed the way I write stages and you have seen this. You have to admit there has been a change in the content of my stages in the direction of how the trend is moving with regard to closer, faster and less non-shooting activities on the clock. And not necessarily when taken off the clock that it makes the match "less cowboy", just takes away from the stage... for ME. Saturday we had two 5 second ‘bonuses’. As usual, they determined who won the match. For a casual shooter that may not be obvious, but if you’re in it to win it you know they aren’t ‘bonuses’. They’re ‘musts’. When the difference between first and second is less than 0.2 seconds, these little on the clock ‘cowboy’ things matter a great deal. I don’t mind being in second place because I missed a flyer ‘bonus’. It’s a shooting activity so just part of the game. I do mind finishing second because my dynamite throwing skills or lassoing skills are lacking. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 I don't trust 'bonus' stuff that can favor a particular person(s). Example: Stick the knife in the stump..... and the stage writer brings HIS favorite throwing knife. Same with hatchet, trickery of poker card colors, etc.........roll the dice, blah, blah, blah. I 'earned' a 'P' once by NOT shooting at a bonus flyer that hit the ground and broke apart BEFORE I could get a shot at it. I think its stupid to shoot at a flyer that's already broken on the ground and earning a 'P' for not shooting at it. On the other hand, I enjoy KD's with rifle/pistol and make up with SG. These are challenging and entertaining. God bless the stage writers who take time to create a stage with a little extra fun like rifle/pistol KD's. ..........Widder 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632 Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 On 9/25/2024 at 6:43 PM, Hoss said: I generally try to hit close to the line, often with a little embellishment. But usually not more than 3-4 words. we used to have a shooter who made up really long lines, they would frustrate TO. in our neck of the woods a default starting line is “Big Iron is awesome” That default line is awesome! 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 11 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said: Saturday we had two 5 second ‘bonuses’. As usual, they determined who won the match. For a casual shooter that may not be obvious, but if you’re in it to win it you know they aren’t ‘bonuses’. They’re ‘musts’. When the difference between first and second is less than 0.2 seconds, these little on the clock ‘cowboy’ things matter a great deal. I don’t mind being in second place because I missed a flyer ‘bonus’. It’s a shooting activity so just part of the game. I do mind finishing second because my dynamite throwing skills or lassoing skills are lacking. And you notice, I stopped adding those "tricks" on the clock. If I want to have you start with a bag of money or a package or whatever, you'll hold it before the start and discard it as you will. I stopped having non-shooting activities on the clock because of the hard time I got for it and the "I'm not coming back to this place". I guess I'd rather compromise a little on what I want and have folks still show up. Guess I have to start giving stuff away now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 6 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: And you notice, I stopped adding those "tricks" on the clock. If I want to have you start with a bag of money or a package or whatever, you'll hold it before the start and discard it as you will. I stopped having non-shooting activities on the clock because of the hard time I got for it and the "I'm not coming back to this place". I guess I'd rather compromise a little on what I want and have folks still show up. Guess I have to start giving stuff away now... There is ZERO reason to stop having "On the clock" activities - but IF you choose to include them; they must be "universal" skills. Carry the money bag from position to position is a universal skill and is simply demonstrating another transition/ manipulation that is well within the context of Cowboy Action. Lasso the steer/ stick the knife/ throw the tomahawk is NOT a universal skill. And to include a non shooting - non universal component for bonus or benefit that impacts standings irritates shooters. There are MANY ways to incorporate "Cowboy" flavor and components on the clock without impacting the scored shooting game in an inequitable manner. It takes a little more creativity and weighing of ideas - but remove the Cowboy components and we are just another shooting game - albeit with obsolete firearms and funny clothes. 7 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 (edited) Our club, Kings River Regulators, has a long standing reputation for traditional cowboy matches with a strong historical western flavor. Our stages are often rich in props, moving or unusual targets, off-the-clock extras, shooter movement, occasional longer targets and occasional shooting from a moving ore cart. We usually have historical but short story lines and related start lines. Our membership has grown in the last 2 years from about 55 in 2022 to 88 today. About half of our new shooters are younger, between 8 and 45. Some of the shooters drive 2 to 3 hours, one way, to shoot our monthly matches. Not everyone in the club loves the traditional shooting, but to our knowledge, nobody has vacated our club or matches because of it. Our growth shows that there are still a number of folks who want more imagination in the game and stages. Their equation includes more than just fast stage times on big, close targets, wearing cowboy hats. Edited October 8 by Dusty Devil Dale 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 12 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: And you notice, I stopped adding those "tricks" on the clock. If I want to have you start with a bag of money or a package or whatever, you'll hold it before the start and discard it as you will. I stopped having non-shooting activities on the clock because of the hard time I got for it and the "I'm not coming back to this place". I guess I'd rather compromise a little on what I want and have folks still show up. Guess I have to start giving stuff away now... I enjoyed the last couple of matches for sure. I know you work hard and although it may not always show, I appreciate what you do. i do think you sometimes miss what people are looking for. Nobody cares if you give stuff away. Nobody has a problem with the way you TO. Most folks don’t want a steady diet of small and far, and most folks don’t like a combination of small and far with strange/different progressions. Different doesn’t necessarily mean fun. It’s your match, you’re doing the work, so ultimately it’s your choice. Some folks at DHI clearly like what you’re doing. Unfortunately it’s true that some folks have decided not to shoot there anymore… I know I’m tired of being the squeaky wheel. I’ll continue to shoot there as long as I’m having fun and when I stop having fun I’ll politely say thanks and start shooting somewhere else, but I’m done complaining about it and I’m done offering advice. 6 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said: There is ZERO reason to stop having "On the clock" activities - but IF you choose to include them; they must be "universal" skills. Carry the money bag from position to position is a universal skill and is simply demonstrating another transition/ manipulation that is well within the context of Cowboy Action. Lasso the steer/ stick the knife/ throw the tomahawk is NOT a universal skill. And to include a non shooting - non universal component for bonus or benefit that impacts standings irritates shooters. There are MANY ways to incorporate "Cowboy" flavor and components on the clock without impacting the scored shooting game in an inequitable manner. It takes a little more creativity and weighing of ideas - but remove the Cowboy components and we are just another shooting game - albeit with obsolete firearms and funny clothes. This! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted October 8 Author Share Posted October 8 7 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said: There is ZERO reason to stop having "On the clock" activities - but IF you choose to include them; they must be "universal" skills. Carry the money bag from position to position is a universal skill and is simply demonstrating another transition/ manipulation that is well within the context of Cowboy Action. Lasso the steer/ stick the knife/ throw the tomahawk is NOT a universal skill. And to include a non shooting - non universal component for bonus or benefit that impacts standings irritates shooters. There are MANY ways to incorporate "Cowboy" flavor and components on the clock without impacting the scored shooting game in an inequitable manner. It takes a little more creativity and weighing of ideas - but remove the Cowboy components and we are just another shooting game - albeit with obsolete firearms and funny clothes. I agree with this 100% 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 (edited) 3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said: I do think you sometimes miss what people are looking for. CBB, You just nailed what is the hardest part of stage writing. In every club there are different people, with different skills and interests, and they will prefer almost every different style of stage. I say 'almost', because I don't believe anybody likes stressful stages with brain-teaser scenarios that are hard to remember and invite Procedurals, or that distract from serious competitors' concentration. Likewise, nobody likes shooting a clay bird at 50 yards with a pistol, with misses counted. An occasional shooting challenge is fun, if it can be done without materially affecting match outcomes. People LOVE hitting that 50 yard bird and hearing a 'whoop' out of the posse, but they hate getting assigned a miss if things don't go well. But at the other end of the scale are the people who are there purely for the fun of challenging shooting, who don't care so much about the timer or score sheet. Some people are mobile and like shooter movement. Others want fast 'stand and shoot'. Some people also shoot trap, so they love clay targets. Others not so much. (But everybody seems to like shooting the Texas Star at reasonable distance !) There is a point where creativity can outstrip peoples' capability and interest. That destroys both the fun and the practice and/or competition value of the match. (and I admit to doing that a time or two-- live and learn!) Searching out all of those threshholds is not easy. Stage writing is difficult, and sadly, most people seem to be more open about stage criticism with other shooters, than they are with the person who wrote the stage and needs to hear what shooters honestly want. People come up and say they really enjoyed the match, but then you hear that they told other shooters otherwise. And without real feedback, a stage writer cannot provide the variety that people like. When I took the job writing stages for our club, I knew full well that I was never going to be carried down our Main Street by a cheering crowd--except to a gallows. But I have to say I did not start out with an understanding of the difficulty of gearing stages to such a broad field of likes and dislikes. So like everybody else, I can only do my best. I try to: 1.) write and set up stages with an eye toward equity for all shooters, 2.) Avoid safety hazards and operational rule glitches. 3.) balance the western thematic things against stage difficulty, 4.) avoid building in likely misses or penalty traps, 5.) have stages reviewed in advance by a varied group of reviewers (WHO WILL COMMENT CANDIDLY! ), 6.) Pay attention to the comments received, and 7). I try to post our stages to our club website about 10 days before the match so people can come prepared with what they need and they can decide whether or not the match will be what they are looking for. For me, hitting the shooter preference targets in stage writing is a lot more difficult than shooting the match itself, because it has consequences for everybody. It cannot be just a casual -- or overdone-- process. Edited October 8 by Dusty Devil Dale 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 The biggest issue that I see with stage writers is the "all or nothing". There seems to be this mindset that "If" there are ANY old school cowboy components - then the match has to be old school in EVERY facet. Or IF the match is under the so called current cowboy mode - then NO element of playtime should exist. I also detest the TWO - TWO - TWO match design; where the stage writer lacks the ability/ imagination to intermingle flavors and basically writes three two stage matches; two "big, close, fast" - two medium (which is exactly the same as big, close, fast - just with an extra 4 or 5 paces) and two difficult (or challenging to use the code word) with distant targets and ridiculous sequences. The stage writer needs to create stages that combine of the most desired of cowboy ingredients. The "majority" of shooters prefer big, close, fast target arrays - that doesn't mean every stage has to be Bordertown distances; but that when setting steel - bigger is generally superior and better received. The "majority" of shooters prefer simple, easy to follow sequences - that doesn't mean every stage is dumps, but that when determining sequences - logical, linear sequences are better received. The "majority" of shooters prefer their cowboy match to include allusions to playing cowboy - this means simple non shooting elements like carry the money bag, throw the bottle at the bartender, stab the dummy, ring the train bell, flip the card table, light the dynamite, so on and so forth - these elements can be stage start elements to signify ready - they can be on the clock elements AS LONG as they are accessible and equitable to "all" (as many as possible). Now there are those who will say they are they SOLELY for a shooting match and you cannot "force" anyone to whole heartedly participate in cowboy elements; but most of us willingly bought the guns, the clothes and created an "Alias"; we could have easily gravitated toward other shooting sports with a lower cost of entry and minus the "extra elements" - we are apparently open to some level of "pretend and silliness". As stage writers and shooters; we HAVE to acknowledge that "pretend and silliness" adds time to a stage - if the only goal is to encourage 10 second stages; cowboy elements will detract. But as long as the "pretend and silliness" is equitable and does not materially change the outcome of the shooting match - the majority of us will participate and have a great time doing so - the VERY FEW shooters that don't wish to participate will eventually find other things to do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 I guess being a middle of the road shooter is easier to keep happy! I don't mind whatever is written. When I started 13 years ago everybody seemed to have fun and pistol targets were out at about 10 yards or so and rifle were at least 25. SG targets weren't tuned and hardly anyone complained. Now targets are so close we get hit with splash all day and accuracy doesn't mean nearly as much. Some matches now the targets are scary close so the gamers can be in sub 15 second range. Don't get me wrong, it's fun, but was more fun when we ALL had to aim!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 (edited) 3 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said: The biggest issue that I see with stage writers is the "all or nothing". There seems to be this mindset that "If" there are ANY old school cowboy components - then the match has to be old school in EVERY facet. Or IF the match is under the so called current cowboy mode - then NO element of playtime should exist. I also detest the TWO - TWO - TWO match design; where the stage writer lacks the ability/ imagination to intermingle flavors and basically writes three two stage matches; two "big, close, fast" - two medium (which is exactly the same as big, close, fast - just with an extra 4 or 5 paces) and two difficult (or challenging to use the code word) with distant targets and ridiculous sequences. The stage writer needs to create stages that combine of the most desired of cowboy ingredients. The "majority" of shooters prefer big, close, fast target arrays - that doesn't mean every stage has to be Bordertown distances; but that when setting steel - bigger is generally superior and better received. The "majority" of shooters prefer simple, easy to follow sequences - that doesn't mean every stage is dumps, but that when determining sequences - logical, linear sequences are better received. The "majority" of shooters prefer their cowboy match to include allusions to playing cowboy - this means simple non shooting elements like carry the money bag, throw the bottle at the bartender, stab the dummy, ring the train bell, flip the card table, light the dynamite, so on and so forth - these elements can be stage start elements to signify ready - they can be on the clock elements AS LONG as they are accessible and equitable to "all" (as many as possible). Now there are those who will say they are they SOLELY for a shooting match and you cannot "force" anyone to whole heartedly participate in cowboy elements; but most of us willingly bought the guns, the clothes and created an "Alias"; we could have easily gravitated toward other shooting sports with a lower cost of entry and minus the "extra elements" - we are apparently open to some level of "pretend and silliness". As stage writers and shooters; we HAVE to acknowledge that "pretend and silliness" adds time to a stage - if the only goal is to encourage 10 second stages; cowboy elements will detract. But as long as the "pretend and silliness" is equitable and does not materially change the outcome of the shooting match - the majority of us will participate and have a great time doing so - the VERY FEW shooters that don't wish to participate will eventually find other things to do. That is useful input. Stage/match writing is a balancing act, any way you look at it. No matter what you do, there will be people out on one or the other end of the curve who will either like or dislike it. I've found most (not all) of our shooters to be pretty tolerant and accepting. If somebody seems to have real heartburn, I usually invite them to write the next match. They usually do a good job of it. Edited October 8 by Dusty Devil Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 5 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said: I guess being a middle of the road shooter is easier to keep happy! I don't mind whatever is written. When I started 13 years ago everybody seemed to have fun and pistol targets were out at about 10 yards or so and rifle were at least 25. SG targets weren't tuned and hardly anyone complained. Now targets are so close we get hit with splash all day and accuracy doesn't mean nearly as much. Some matches now the targets are scary close so the gamers can be in sub 15 second range. Don't get me wrong, it's fun, but was more fun when we ALL had to aim!! A couple of points to discuss. Firstly, 10 yard pistol targets are called rifle targets. Splash is a function of target design, condition and hangers - target distance is rarely, if ever, the predominant factor in creating splash. When stages are "fast" and targets are close - accuracy means MORE. After all - a 5 second miss contrasted with a 40 second stage is much less damaging than a 5 second miss against a 15 second stage - when stage times drop, the relative penalty for a miss increases. I have to clarify this point - "How" was it more fun when everyone had to aim? And, are you implying you don't have to aim now? You AND every shooter at your club has strung together a 6 month run of clean matches? If you are shooting at speed AND hitting every single target - you should be winning every match; certainly cannot be considered a middle of the road shooter. But if you're hitting all the targets and still not winning; you're not shooting fast enough. Or if you are not 100% hitting every target every shot - then the targets are still providing challenge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 Surprisingly! This is my first year a few clean shoots,yay! I guess by saying more fun aiming, I meant back then we seemed to do more laughing at the difficulty comparatively to today. We still chuckle about the dang rabbits at 25 or so yards. By no means do I mean I don't have to aim. No target is too close or too big to miss! There was more joshing overall I guess. I do still have FUN now. It's just different with targets you can almost touch! Not necessarily a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 20 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said: Surprisingly! This is my first year a few clean shoots,yay! I guess by saying more fun aiming, I meant back then we seemed to do more laughing at the difficulty comparatively to today. We still chuckle about the dang rabbits at 25 or so yards. By no means do I mean I don't have to aim. No target is too close or too big to miss! There was more joshing overall I guess. I do still have FUN now. It's just different with targets you can almost touch! Not necessarily a bad thing. This I understand - I do believe matches have lost "something" compared to older matches - but "I" am not convinved that "something" is necessarily the difficulty of match. Yesterdays matches were NOT any more difficult than todays - they simply exercised a differing skillset. And I don't think it was more fun watching shooters struggle with 60 second stages and seeing spotters using both hands to count misses. What I think has been lost is the cowboy mindset; the afore mentioned pretend and silliness. In our attempt to be taken seriously as a "real" shooting sport - we lost the "silliness" that differentiated us from other games. That silliness is why we laughed and joshed with each other - asking each other "how can we take ourselves so seriously when we are grown men dressed up like cowboys?". I don't think the fun came from 10 yard pistol targets - and I think that same fun is still available with todays bigger, closer target arrays in effect making the fun more accessible. We just need match directors willing to put in the effort. And I am more than willing to offer my efforts to any club or match director that is interested in ideas or stage writing that incorporates the best of what our game was and what our game currently is. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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