Bad happening at loading table.

[Hoss]

at work they would call this a “SAFETY STAND DOWN”
 

At last week’s match a shooter (not me!!!) for whatever reason had to jack the rounds out of his rifle. This is something most of us have had to do at one time or another.  While doing so he apparently touched the trigger, or perhaps did not fully lever rifle, and hammer did not catch on sear. Whatever the reason, an AD happened. Bullet hit mag tube of another rifle on table, putting a pretty big dent in it a couple inches from the muzzle. 
 

Moral of the story, be extremely careful jacking rounds out. Might want to consider blocking or holding hammer with off hand.

 

 I’d suggest safety officer mention this at your next match. 

[El Sobrante Kid]

This is NOT an AD, it is a negligent discharge. Whoever was removing the rounds was absolutely responsible for the discharge, not some unforeseeable or accidental event. Following the basic safety rules and being aware would have kept this from happening. Unless some part of the rifle broke, causing the discharge, it should have resulted in a MDQ for the person who did it.

[Sedalia Dave]

5 minutes ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

This is NOT an AD, it is a negligent discharge. Whoever was removing the rounds was absolutely responsible for the discharge, not some unforeseeable or accidental event. Following the basic safety rules and being aware would have kept this from happening. Unless some part of the rifle broke, causing the discharge, it should have resulted in a MDQ for the person who did it.

 

Been a few years, but I have seen a 73 discharge without touching the trigger while being cycled at the loading table.  Fortunately, the rifle was pointed in a safe direction and nothing was damaged except the splatter screen.

 

When it happened the shooter was as surprised as the rest of us. TO called a cease fire and once all firearms were safely staged, the TO asked the shooter what happened. Shooter was adamant that they didn't touch the trigger and one of the other shooters at the loading table backed them up.  

 

MD had the shooter bring the rifle to the firing line and under their supervision had the shooter repeat what they were doing at the unloading table.  Third cycle the rifle fired again. Did it again on the 7th cycle. After the rifle was empty the action was cycled several more time and the malfunction occurred a few more times. Each time the hammer fell as soon as the lever depressed the trigger block.

 

Found out later that the rifle was the shooters backup and they were testing it at the match.  Apparently the Smith that slicked it up botched the trigger job. Weird thing is this issue would not have been noticed during normal operation it only showed up because the shooter lost count of the number of rounds loaded and was unloading to st start over.

 

Needless to say he didn't take it back to the same gun smith to have the problem fixed.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

A lot of people don't know that it is easy to back rounds out of the loading gate on a '66 or '73.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Uncontrolled Discharge.

Uncontrolled discharge (also known as “Accidental Discharge/AD”) is defined as any discharge of a firearm that was not controlled or intended by the shooter, either by accidental discharge or by shooting a round in an unsafe manner (e.g., over the berm). - - A round over the berm carries varying penalties.  Site specific match & range rules establish the penalty, up to and possibly including a Match Disqualification. Uncontrolled discharges have penalties: o Any discharge that hits the ground or non-expendable stage prop 5 – 10 feet from the shooter: Stage Disqualification. o Any discharge that hits the ground or non-expendable stage prop less than five feet from the shooter, any discharge at the loading or unloading areas, any discharge off the firing line, or any discharge that is deemed unsafe result in a Match Disqualification. SHB page 27

Doesn't really matter why, only that it happened.

Hope everyone is ok

Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Texas Jack Black]

 How could the round hit another shooters Rifle .Where was the muzzle pointed?

[Equanimous Phil]

1 hour ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 How could the round hit another shooters Rifle .Where was the muzzle pointed?

^^^ That's the main point!!

While ADs have to be prevented by all means, they CAN and WILL happen. That's the whole idea of having LTs and ULTs with a safe direction to point your muzzles! Nobody and nothing (but someone's ego and match result) gets damaged when it happens.

Edited September 17 by Equanimous Phil

[Dapper Dave]

Hmmm, portable clearing barrel might be a good idea? We use one that will withstand a 12 gauge. I've seen some incredible stupid negligent disharges in my time, but never one that damaged someone else's gun; good thing that wasn't someone else's leg. 

Edited September 17 by Dapper Dave
spelling

[Hoss]

6 hours ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

This is NOT an AD, it is a negligent discharge. Whoever was removing the rounds was absolutely responsible for the discharge, not some unforeseeable or accidental event. Following the basic safety rules and being aware would have kept this from happening. Unless some part of the rifle broke, causing the discharge, it should have resulted in a MDQ for the person who did it.

Absolutely was a MDQ. And shooter was not allowed to continue match for no score because “he’s a good guy” (which he is) 

57 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said:

Hmmm, portable clearing barrel might be a good idea? We use one that will withstand a 12 gauge. I've seen some incredible stupid negligent disharges in my time, but never one that damaged someone else's gun; good thing that wasn't someone else's leg. 

Yes, absolutely could have been much worse!

[Hoss]

2 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 How could the round hit another shooters Rifle .Where was the muzzle pointed?

While I did not see it happen, I think rifle was laying in table as he worked lever. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Obviously, he had the muzzle pointed at the other shooter's gun when it fired.   Serious lack of muzzle control.  "Never point the gun at something you do not want to destroy"

 

Shooter had also better be ready to pay for any needed repair to that other pard's gun.

 

good luck, GJ

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

This makes unloading much safer. 

[Howlin Mad Murdock SASS #4037]

Or, you can just tighten the end cap finger tight for free.

 

[Too Tall Bob]

Or, you can remove the rounds through the side gate.  

[Stump Water]

12 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

A lot of people don't know that it is easy to back rounds out of the loading gate on a '66 or '73.

 

29 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Or, you can remove the rounds through the side gate.  

 

I didn't know that there were people that didn't know this.

 

Perhaps a demonstration at the next safety meetings across the land is in order.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

36 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

...I didn't know that there were people that didn't know this...

Well, I am assuming that a lot of people don't know, based on seeing a lot of folks taking off the end cap and far less often seeing anyone backing rounds out of the gate.  Granted, the carrier has to be in the down position.  If the carrier is jammed part way or all the way up, then out the front they go.  I do have an aftermarket slotted tool at my cart for removing the stock mag tube plug, haven't needed it myself but have loaned it several times.  And I'm seeing a lot more of those brass mag plugs like Barleycorn mentioned.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

13 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Any discharge that hits the ground or non-expendable stage prop 5 – 10 feet from the shooter: Stage Disqualification.

 

Not to be technical but I will. Round didn't hit the ground nor hit a prop?

[Captain Bill Burt]

11 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 How could the round hit another shooters Rifle .Where was the muzzle pointed?

I'm going to hazard a wild guess and say it was pointed at the mag tube the bullet struck.

[Savvy Jack]

Interesting how folks continue to fail to point the muzzle in a safe direction when manipulating or groping the receiver end! Absolute Negligence and is how people get killed!!

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

13 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

 Any discharge that hits the ground or non-expendable stage prop less than five feet from the shooter, any discharge at the loading or unloading areas, any discharge off the firing line, or any discharge that is deemed unsafe result in a Match Disqualification. SHB page 27

Doesn't really matter why, only that it happened.

Hope everyone is ok

Regards

    

Gateway Kid

What if the cause was a mechanical issue with the gun? 

[Krazy Kajun]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

What if the cause was a mechanical issue with the gun? 

Fault of the gun, fault of the shooter, it does not matter. Discharge of a gun at the loading or unloading table is a MDQ.  And in all cases it's important to maintain proper muzzle discipline.

 

Kajun

[Assassin]

I've seen it happen several times. Our conclusion was stuck firing pin. Seen the load one skip one pistol loaders blow holes in tables much more often, not as much now as 20 years back. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

19 minutes ago, Assassin said:

... Seen the load one skip one pistol loaders blow holes in tables much more often, not as much now as 20 years back. 

You have me curious, I'm trying to understand how this happens?  Are they pulling the trigger to drop the hammer after going to full cock, instead of easing it down, and there is a round under the hammer because they did it wrong?  

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

How do you unload through the loading gate?  I've never heard of such a possibility?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

 

[John Kloehr]

5 hours ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Or, you can remove the rounds through the side gate.  

 

5 hours ago, Stump Water said:

I didn't know that there were people that didn't know this.

I did not know. I will watch the video.

 

And I would never expect this jacking rounds out by lever either.

 

2 hours ago, Krazy Kajun said:

Fault of the gun, fault of the shooter, it does not matter. Discharge of a gun at the loading or unloading table is a MDQ.  And in all cases it's important to maintain proper muzzle discipline.

Agree and agree and agree with all three statements. And with proper muzzle control, I would hang out afterwards and help how I could for the rest of the day. Unless I crapped my pants, then I might leave.

[Stump Water]

35 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

 

On all of our '73s all you have to do is push in the loading gate.  

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

48 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

On all of our '73s all you have to do is push in the loading gate.  

Do you have shotgun boogie '66-style loading gates on them?  I think that makes it easier.  Gotta watch out they don't all fly out on the ground. 

 

I've never thought of doing it like Palo Verde shows.  I just push the loading gate open with one finger, stick another finger into the gate to push the base of the round to the side enough for it to come out under spring pressure.  Occasionally I've stuck a screwdriver or knife blade in through the gate to do the same thing, but usually the finger can get it (skinny fingers, anyway).  And yeah, for the last round need to tilt the barrel up a little.  I've rarely needed to do it on my own rifle, mostly helping others that I see about to take the mag plug off. 

[Stump Water]

54 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Do you have shotgun boogie '66-style loading gates on them? 

 

No.  They were all done by Cody.

[Assassin]

4 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

You have me curious, I'm trying to understand how this happens?  Are they pulling the trigger to drop the hammer after going to full cock, instead of easing it down, and there is a round under the hammer because they did it wrong?  

Pretty sure they did it wrong. I prefer to load 5 and spin the cylinder to insure I don't have high primers and cartridges are fully inserted into the cylinder. I also make sure people sign their name and date next to holes in tables and props with a Sharpie.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

8 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

 

Not to be technical but I will. Round didn't hit the ground nor hit a prop?

Answer is in second sentence, ANY discharge at the loading or unloading table. 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

7 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

What if the cause was a mechanical issue with the gun? 

I know you know. If the shooter didn’t mean to shoot targets in a manner other than per instructions, they still get the procedural. If they weren’t expecting the gun to fire and they missed, they still get the miss. Shooter didn’t intentionally drop their unloaded pistol while holstering on the firing line, still get the SDQ. Shooter’s firearm, shooter’s responsibility. 
Regards

    
Gateway Kid

[Dapper Dave]

11 hours ago, Stump Water said:

 

 

I didn't know that there were people that didn't know this.

 

Perhaps a demonstration at the next safety meetings across the land is in order.

I have never done that, didn't know there was a way to do that. 

[Hoss]

11 hours ago, Dapper Dave said:

I have never done that, didn't know there was a way to do that. 

I once had last round not completely inserted, case head was hung on the gate. I pushed to gate open, about 5 rounds backed out quicker than I could react. I think if ida held gate open they all would have backed out! 

[Hoss]

On 9/17/2024 at 6:31 AM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Obviously, he had the muzzle pointed at the other shooter's gun when it fired.   Serious lack of muzzle control.  "Never point the gun at something you do not want to destroy"

 

Shooter had also better be ready to pay for any needed repair to that other pard's gun.

 

good luck, GJ

Sadly, shooter did not offer to pay. While he acknowledged the AD, he did not think he had damaged to other rifle. (Other rifle damage was not noticed until next stage as it was a dent, not a complete breach of mag tube) 

Edited September 18 by Hoss