S&W M-1854

[Mustang Gregg]

 

Morning, Pards,

 

I got an interesting call very late last night from a new Pard.

He has a S&W M-1854 that he just bought for SASS shooting. 

He asked me if it was legal, claiming the dealer said it is approved.

I could not get the SASS Handbook to open to read it off (still can't).

 

I didn't think it would be within regs, since I think the rear sight is on a Picatinny on the receiver.

 

Anybody shooting these?

 

MG

[Eyesa Horg]

The picatinny looks like it could be removed, but the stock doesn't look real period correct. But that's just me.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I think the dealer lied.  Here is a photo off the S&W website.

 

 

The aperture rear sight is not legal.  The Picatinny rail is probably removable but there does not appear to be a dovetail on the barrel for a new sight.  The front sight is a brass bead.  Probably cost him a bit more money to get it SASS legal.  

 

P.S. the large loop lever is typically something most SASS shooters do not want.

[Eyesa Horg]

1 minute ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

I think the dealer lied.  Here is a photo off the S&W website.

 

 

The aperture rear sight is not legal.  The Picatinny rail is probably removable but there does not appear to be a dovetail on the barrel for a new sight.  The front sight is a brass bead.  Probably cost him a bit more money to get it SASS legal.  

That stock is nicer than the one I saw with the M-Lock flats on the forestock.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

On the S&W website I clicked on the box for models with walnut stocks.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The circled features are UNAPPROVED/ILLEGAL modifications:

 

[Mustang Gregg]

PWB,

Much obliged.

Those muzzle threads, even when covered, would be outlawed?

MG

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

15 minutes ago, Mustang Gregg said:

PWB,

Much obliged.

Those muzzle threads, even when covered, would be outlawed?

MG

 

They are not currently legal with or without the thread protector.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Easily fixed.

 

[Mustang Gregg]

29 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Easily fixed.

 

LOLOL!!!

[J.D. Daily]

Wouldn't a tang site work? 

[Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485]

I shot my marlin with the rear sight folded down. I felt it made it easier to find the next target. Pull that picatinny rail off, try it on paper at 10 and 20 yards, he might find he doesn't need a rear sight at all. I think most match directors at weekly matches would let him shoot it. Maybe wrap leather around the end of the barrel and nut, tie it on with fringe, might look cool. 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

33 minutes ago, J.D. Daily said:

Wouldn't a tang site work? 

I would say because it’s a receiver site not a tang site?

 

Randy

[July Smith]

2 hours ago, Mustang Gregg said:

He has a S&W M-1854 that he just bought for SASS shooting.

While not legal for SASS, if this is your pard's only lever gun he could probably have it approved by your local MD for use at monthly matches.  Who knows it might get him in the door and if he takes to it seriously he would be looking to upgrade to a rifle better suited to SASS anyways. 

[Mustang Gregg]

July Smith,

 

He said he's a gun-guy, but new to SASS. 

I offered him use of our many Marlins and Win. clones.

 

No, we do not want him scared off.

We are very lenient with new shooters.  I think he'd understand that at a "big" match, he would have to use a different rifle.

 

Mustang Gregg

TG for LCBCA

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

3 minutes ago, July Smith said:

While not legal for SASS, if this is your pard's only lever gun he could probably have it approved by your local MD for use at monthly matches.  Who knows it might get him in the door and if he takes to it seriously he would be looking to upgrade to a rifle better suited to SASS anyways. 

 

IMO...

Spending that kind of $$$ based on MISinformation from an ignorant dealer?
He'd be better off returning the rifle and purchasing one that is LEGAL for SASS competition.

[July Smith]

3 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

IMO...

Spending that kind of $$$ based on MISinformation from an ignorant dealer?
He'd be better off returning the rifle and purchasing one that is LEGAL for SASS competition.

I don't disagree with you, but it sounds like the deal is already done and this guy has a S&W lever rifle. 

 

The S&W looks almost exactly like a Henry rifle save for a few features that will be of no advantage in SASS.  I don't see the issue if he wanted to use it at a monthly so long as it was explained it would not be allowed at an annual/state match and he would be ineligible for club awards. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Well, the OP says the guy "...that he just bought for SASS shooting. He asked me if it was legal, claiming the dealer said it is approved...."

 

If he hasn't shot it or scratched it, I think the dealer should take it back.  For that kind of money, he could buy a tricked out '73 from a top 'smith, and have money left over.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

25 minutes ago, July Smith said:

he could probably have it approved by your local MD for use at monthly matches.

This is what leads to at virtually every shoot above the club level someone offering the excuse "but gee it is legal where I shoot."   Shoot legal equipment and avoid future disappointment.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

To me, it looks like a cross between a Marlin and a Henry Big Boy.  

I am surprised they don't offer a version with "conventional" sights.  

[July Smith]

11 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

To me, it looks like a cross between a Marlin and a Henry Big Boy.  

I am surprised they don't offer a version with "conventional" sights.  

Like it or not the rail and other "tactical" features is very much the current convention for every major brand of lever actions currently being made.  Heck even Uberti's website has an 1873 (both handgun and rifle) with a rail featured on their front page. 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

He can at least go back to the dealer he bought it from snd inform him that the rifle, with those specific features,  is not SASS legal. Then go from there and see how it goes. If the dealer at that point continues selling them to potential SASS shooters he would be intentionally misleading customers. Especially if he claimed it was approved by SASS. That goes beyond just assuming it was legal.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

29 minutes ago, July Smith said:

Like it or not the rail and other "tactical" features is very much the current convention for every major brand of lever actions currently being made.  Heck even Uberti's website has an 1873 (both handgun and rifle) with a rail featured on their front page. 

 

Uberti, Henry, Taylors, and Marlin continue to offer SASS-LEGAL firearms, besides those aimed at the non-SASS market.

 

Potential purchasers would be well-advised to know the rules applicable to their intended use.

(as should the dealers selling those brands)

 

[Mustang Gregg]

I have never spoken to him before.  He's completely new to me.

And he didn't buy it from my gun shop.  I don't know where he got it.

 

As far as the dealer feeding him a line of BS...Yes, that happens.  A LOT!!

I lost several CAS rifle sales a few years ago when the HRA Big Butt (errr..Big Boy) came out. 

I told customers the truth---that is is not a replica of a real  Henry and not SASS legal.

 

But after a spell, it was approved by the SASS gang.

 

Mustang

[watab kid]

sadly a lot of fake cowboy items are getting marketed these days and there are thise that are liking the look rather than the logic of researching what is actually a cowboy gun , buyer beware ,  but really - cant we even look it up on google ? 

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

19 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

To me, it looks like a cross between a Marlin and a Henry Big Boy.  

I am surprised they don't offer a version with "conventional" sights.  

And 10 round magazines!  Most of these new lever guns are coming in 9 round tube magazines. Perhaps a shorter magazine spring would get them the 10th round in the mag, but, again if the shooter really wants to shoot it and is ok loading one from the belt to get to 10, I say go for it!

[Mustang Gregg]

On 8/28/2024 at 12:09 PM, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said:

And 10 round magazines!  Most of these new lever guns are coming in 9 round tube magazines. Perhaps a shorter magazine spring would get them the 10th round in the mag, but, again if the shooter really wants to shoot it and is ok loading one from the belt to get to 10, I say go for it!

It might hold 10 in the tube, if he uses .44 S&W ammo, like I do.  I'd also shave some material off of the follower, if possible.

He hasn't called me back yet.

 

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

28 minutes ago, Mustang Gregg said:

It might hold 10 in the tube, if he uses .44 S&W ammo, like I do.  I'd also shave some material off of the follower, if possible.

He hasn't called me back yet.

 

Agreed as I also shoot .44spcl, but you never know the over all length (OAL) needed until you try. But it could also be a chance that if you shorten the mag tube spring they would fit. However I was talking more about the.45 Colt models as they are next to .357 in popularity. Still loading on the clock isn’t bad if you really like the rifle!  

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Until they make of these "tacticool" lever guns with a bayonet lug, I'll continue to pass.   

[WymoreWrangler SASS 46187L]

On 8/27/2024 at 8:40 PM, Mustang Gregg said:

I have never spoken to him before.  He's completely new to me.

And he didn't buy it from my gun shop.  I don't know where he got it.

 

As far as the dealer feeding him a line of BS...Yes, that happens.  A LOT!!

I lost several CAS rifle sales a few years ago when the HRA Big Butt (errr..Big Boy) came out. 

I told customers the truth---that is is not a replica of a real  Henry and not SASS legal.

 

But after a spell, it was approved by the SASS gang.

 

Mustang

Sounds like a gunshop on HWY 77 and the intersection of HWY 41....

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

from what I have seen in the literature it is a 9 plus 1 gun so he also bought himself a 1 round reload on every stage.

[Mustang Gregg]

On 9/4/2024 at 8:36 PM, WymoreWrangler SASS 46187L said:

Sounds like a gunshop on HWY 77 and the intersection of HWY 41....

WW:

 

It may well be that shop.  I don't know.  There used to be a gun shop near the FORT that told stories like that too just to sell their dead horses.

Remember the HRA Big Boy debacle?  "Is it SASS legal or not?"  And SASS didn't approve it for quite a spell.

 

BTW-The guy never got back to me about it anyway.