Black Powder Shotgun Loads

[Ike the butcher Tuckerson]

Hello Black Powder users. I am a greenhorn to the Cowboy Action Shooting world. I really enjoy shooting BP cartridges, and I have my loads dialed in for my 45. So it's time to start dabbling in 12 gauge loads. I am using APP. I have started with about 17-18 grns of powder, #7-8 lead shot at 1 1/8 oz load.  I am reusing spent plastic shell casings. What are your thoughts and experiences? 

[Eyesa Horg]

I use real BP in mine! 

40gr by weight of 2F, pink one ounce Clay buster wad, 1oz of #8 shot. Adjust shot for a good crimp. Cheddite primers.

[Krazy Kajun]

I use APP in my BP shotgun loads as well.  I used 1 1/8 oz of shot and a 2.2cc Lee dipper of APP with AA hulls.

 

Kajun

[Ike the butcher Tuckerson]

@Krazy Kajun 2.2cc? about how many grains is that?

[Sedalia Dave]

8 minutes ago, Ike the butcher Tuckerson said:

@Krazy Kajun 2.2cc? about how many grains is that?

 

Buy yourself a set of the Lee Dippers.  They come in real handy for shooting BP as you can share load data and there is no question if your measurements are in BP grains or Grains by weight.

 

Below is Capt Baylor's BP conversion sheet.

 

BP Conversion Sheet (revised December 2012).pdf

[Ike the butcher Tuckerson]

@Sedalia Dave Thank you!

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

2.2 cc is about 25 grains of APP.   17 grains of APP is a good .44 C&B revolver load.  It might not even clear the barrel in a shotgun.  APP has varied a LOT over the years.  Baylor's chart is pretty old.   I am not sure what iteration of the APP formula he was using.  Having shot APP real BP and all the subs over the years I would go with at least 30 grains of APP.  What grain size are you using?  For CAS use stick with FFFG.  FFG is too coarse for metallic handgun loads and meters poorly.  As noted a set of Lee Dippers is not expensive and is useful for shotgun loads.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

18 minutes ago, Ike the butcher Tuckerson said:

@Krazy Kajun 2.2cc? about how many grains is that?

Not enough.🤣

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

P.S. do not get wrapped around the axle over precise grain weights.  APP is a very low order explosive and if you are shooting 28 grains or 32 grains you most likely will not be able to tell the difference.  What you are primarily concerned with in a shotgun is stack height.  That is you need a powder, wad, shot weight combination that gives good crimps.  An old but still useful rule of thumb for BP and the subs is to use a volume (not weight!) of powder that equals your volume of shot.  This is a so-called square load.

Edited August 26 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[Leroy Luck]

I’ve been experimenting lately but have found a load that seems to work good. 
 

AA hulls with the crimp cut off

Mec bushing #36 with either FFg or FFFg (seems to drop the same amount) dropping 34 grains of APP

 

2 nitro cards, 1 half inch fiber wad, 7/8 oz of shot, an overshot card and roll crimp them. 
 

I was using plastic wads and didn’t like the melted plastic in the barrels. No big deal just my personal preference. So I resorted to using fiber wads and nitro cards and really like it.

[Sedalia Dave]

My Monthly match load.

 

Primer of choice

Remington Gun Club or STS hull

CB0178-12 wad

3cc of 3F APP (35 grains by weight)

7/8 oz of shot

 

This load will knock down any shotgun target.

 

The secret to BP shotgun shells is to have enough powder in them so that the hull seals well and you do not get any blow by on the outside of the hull.  By eliminating blow by the hulls will not stick in the chambers.

 

As Mr. Pettifogger pointed out a good starting point for BP loads is equal volumes of powder and shot.

 

IMNSHO, Anything over an ounce of shot is just a waste of lead

[Rattlesnake Slim]

The easiest way is to use 30-35 grains by weight of APP, one ounce of lead, and then experiment with wads to give you the proper stack height. I find that the 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 oz wads work best because they have the shortest cushion. Any excess wad petal just gets folded over when you crimp. Also I use either Fiocchi or Federal hulls. Being straight walled they have a little more room for the bulkier powder.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

31 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

The secret to BP shotgun shells is to have enough powder in them so that the hull seals well and you do not get any blow by on the outside of the hull.  By eliminating blow by the hulls will not stick in the chambers.

A big plus one.  APP is low powered and if you do not use enough you will get blowby in a shotshell.  That is why I would not go below 30 grains of APP.  I use pretty much the same load as Dave.  Gun Club hulls are all over the trap ranges and are extruded hulls like the STS.  Fire them once and toss to avoid toasty crimps.

[Blackwater 53393]

I don’t use subs. My load data would be useless here.

 

 

[Diamond Jake]

I've shot with Krazy Kajun a few times,  and I can testify that his shotshells work.  If he says it's 2.2cc, I believe him.

 

Having said that, I've personally used as low as 2.8cc and as high as 4.3cc of APP with either 7/8 oz or 1 oz of #7 1/2 shot.  All worked, but I'm currently using 3.1cc with 7/8 oz.  Your mileage may vary. 

 

Oh, I've had best performance with Remington Gun Club hulls and grey Claybuster wads.  Almost no melted plastic in the barrels of my Navy Arms Coachgun.

Edited August 26 by Diamond Jake

[Three Foot Johnson]

7 hours ago, Ike the butcher Tuckerson said:

2.2cc? about how many grains is that?

As illustrated in the PDF above, the definitive answer is, "It depends". Two extreme examples are Pyrodex vs. Swiss. Pyrodex P weighs ~25.1 grains/2.2 cc, while Swiss weighs ~35.2 grains/2.2 cc (I used Swiss 1.5 for this comparison). Alliant BMZ weighs 29.9 grains/2.2 cc. (Discontinued, but I've got a bunch of it).

 

Over ten grains difference in the weight of 2.2 cc Pyrodex P vs. Swiss 1.5. Grains can be measured by volume or weight, just as ounces can be volume or weight, and they are generally not the same. Some people swear up and down black powder is meant to be weighed, and others swear up and down it's meant to be measured by volume. I'll say this, in the days of muzzle loading pistols, rifles, and fowlers, nobody carried a scale in their kit.  If you're using the same brand and granulation of black, the ratio of weight to cc will remain consistent, but if you switch to a different brand or sub, the ratio can be WAY off - as above, there's a whopping FORTY PERCENT difference in the weight of Pyrodex and Swiss for the same volume.

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

using 17-18 grains of APP is a mighty light load.  I wouldn't go lower that 2 cc (Equivalent to approximately 30 grains). Will your lower load of 17-18 grains goes bang? certainly.  Will it pattern good? probably not.  Will it put down the knockdown targets? probably not.  Loading real BP or subs is loaded by volume.  Different shooters use different shot weight and it's a personal preference, I use 1 ounces #7, #8 or #8 1/2 shots.  I prefer real BP but have used subs in the past.  I suggest to find a pard that shoots BP/subs at your club and ask for some pointers.  Good luck and welcome to the Darkside.  

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Howdy;  I use 4.3 CC of Goex 3F plastic wad and 1 1/8 oz shot in 12 Ga. ,, 3.4 CC of Goex 3F plastic wad and 1 oz. of shot in 16 Ga. ,, 3 CC  of Goex 3F plastic wad and 7/8 oz of shot in 20 Ga...

 

Jabez Cowboy

Edited August 27 by Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129

[DeaconKC]

6 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

My Monthly match load.

 

Primer of choice

Remington Gun Club or STS hull

CB0178-12 wad

3cc of 3F APP (35 grains by weight)

7/8 oz of shot

 

This load will knock down any shotgun target.

 

The secret to BP shotgun shells is to have enough powder in them so that the hull seals well and you do not get any blow by on the outside of the hull.  By eliminating blow by the hulls will not stick in the chambers.

 

As Mr. Pettifogger pointed out a good starting point for BP loads is equal volumes of powder and shot.

 

IMNSHO, Anything over an ounce of shot is just a waste of lead

Dave, have you ever used this with brass shells like the Magtech hulls?

[Krazy Kajun]

I used to use only 1 oz of shot for a while, I changed over to 1 1/8 oz of shot in hopes the golden BB might be in the extra 1/8 oz. 🤣 Actually it just gives me a little more confidence knowing a little more lead was going downrange.  For a 7/8 oz load of shot I used the 1.9cc dipper. 2.2cc is plenty enough to take down most any SG target I've faced go down.

 

Kajun

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, DeaconKC said:

Dave, have you ever used this with brass shells like the Magtech hulls?

 

I haven't but I see no reason why it wouldn't work. Just change out the plastic wad for the necessary over powder cards and fiber wads.

 

I would definitely pattern the load to make sure it doesn't blow out in the center.  If is does then I would increase the shot in 1/8 ounce increments until the pattern didn't look like a doughnut. 

[Old Man Graybeard]

I have been using Fiocci cases  with the crimp trimmed off. A 1 oz. dipper of powder...nitro card...1/2 inch cushion wad...1oz. dipper of shot...over shot card and roll crimp them on a drill press. I am using 2F APP powder. Been working well and nobody has said that I am having any trouble making smoke factor

[Eyesa Horg]

8 minutes ago, Old Man Graybeard said:

I have been using Fiocci cases  with the crimp trimmed off. A 1 oz. dipper of powder...nitro card...1/2 inch cushion wad...1oz. dipper of shot...over shot card and roll crimp them on a drill press. I am using 2F APP powder. Been working well and nobody has said that I am having any trouble making smoke factor

437.5 grains of powder won't even fit in the hull. 

1 ounce equals 437.5 grains! Figuring you use the same dipper that holds an ounce of shot, therefore a square load.

Edited August 27 by Eyesa Horg

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

I can't believe no one has mentioned stuffing half a cotton ball down the into the hull before crimping.  I use WIN AA hulls, don't mind scraping the plastic residue out of the barrels, and LOVE the snow that comes flying out of the smoke.  If the wind is in my face then me and, more importantly, all the pards nearby get covered with cotton snow, which is pretty funny sometimes.  Some grumble but no one takes it wrong, or too seriously.

[Eyesa Horg]

43 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

use WIN AA hulls, don't mind scraping the plastic residue out of the barrel

No scraping needed! Squirt some Windex w/vinegar down the barrels and cork. Rotate occasionally for several minutes and then push a quarter sheet of paper towels thru. Most,but not all of the plastic will come out like an accordioned snake. Keep the Windex off the bluing however!

[Blackwater 53393]

1 hour ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

I use WIN AA hulls, don't mind scraping the plastic residue out of the barrels,

I squirt two or three good squirts of Windex down the barrels and then fire a couple of warm smokeless rounds.  It blows all the gunk down range and I wipe the barrels out with a patch with Ballistol. I’m done in about two minutes!!

[Krazy Kajun]

I just run hot water down the barrels, rotating them a little.  Follow up with a little paper towel patch, barrels are clean.  Then I follow up with a SG patch with Ballistol.

 

Kajun

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

1 hour ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

I squirt two or three good squirts of Windex down the barrels and then fire a couple of warm smokeless rounds.  It blows all the gunk down range and I wipe the barrels out with a patch with Ballistol. I’m done in about two minutes!!

That's a GREAT idea, thanks!

 

What exactly does the vinegar in the Windex do to the plastic?

Edited August 27 by Nostrum Damus SASS #110702

[Ike the butcher Tuckerson]

I am curious if PAM will work for cleaning out the plastic? It seems to do wonders on removing the bp residue and other gunk.

[Eyesa Horg]

9 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

That's a GREAT idea, thanks!

 

What exactly does the vinegar in the Windex do to the plastic?

Don't know, but it comes out black and slimy. Pretty much in one crunched up hunk that you can sorta stretch back out! Sure cleans easier than smokeless plastic. Although I haven't tried Windex on smokeless. Never gave it a thought for some reason! 

3 minutes ago, Ike the butcher Tuckerson said:

I am curious if PAM will work for cleaning out the plastic? It seems to do wonders on removing the bp residue and other gunk.

Haven't tried it. Give it a whirl, nothing to loose.

[Chancy Shot, SASS #67163]

This is what I use for matches and practice.

 

As for cleaning, I have two corks that I put in the muzzles, fill with hot water, do something else for 5 minutes, then pull the corks.  It all comes out.  Then I push an oily 1/4 paper towel down each barrel.  Done.

 

Chancy

Edited August 27 by Chancy Shot, SASS #67163

[Chantry]

On 8/26/2024 at 11:27 AM, Eyesa Horg said:

I use real BP in mine! 

40gr by weight of 2F, pink one ounce Clay buster wad, 1oz of #8 shot. Adjust shot for a good crimp. Cheddite primers.

 

That's a light load.  I use 120 grs of either 1F or 2F, 1 1/2 ozs of shot, fiber wads, overshot card and sometimes I'll pull both triggers to see if the posse and the people two counties over are awake....of course that's for a 10 gauge  

[Count Sandor, SASS #74075]

4 hours ago, Chancy Shot, SASS #67163 said:

This is what I use for matches and practice.

 

As for cleaning, I have two corks that I put in the muzzles, fill with hot water, do something else for 5 minutes, then pull the corks.  It all comes out.  Then I push an oily 1/4 paper towel down each barrel.  Done.

 

Chancy

And if you have flowering plants outside, pull the corks right over them and let the fluid flow - good fertilizer, works great on hostas!

[Griff]

6 hours ago, Krazy Kajun said:

I just run hot water down the barrels, rotating them a little.  Follow up with a little paper towel patch, barrels are clean.  Then I follow up with a SG patch with Ballistol.

 

Kajun

Exactly what i've done since I started shooting BP in CAS in 1987.  Simple, quick, efficient.  Dippers... BLAH!  I run Goex thru either my MEC 600 Jr, or the Hornady 336.  #35 MEC bushing, a Claybuster CB1138-12 wad, 1 oz of shot in once fired AA hulls.  To those TOs that insist of telling me the target is "down"..."Well of course!  I shot at it didn't I?"

'Nough smoke?

https://youtu.be/uhhV3EcxQP8

[Krazy Kajun]

2 hours ago, Griff said:

Exactly what i've done since I started shooting BP in CAS in 1987.  Simple, quick, efficient.  Dippers... BLAH!  I run Goex thru either my MEC 600 Jr, or the Hornady 336.  #35 MEC bushing, a Claybuster CB1138-12 wad, 1 oz of shot in once fired AA hulls.  To those TOs that insist of telling me the target is "down"..."Well of course!  I shot at it didn't I?"

'Nough smoke?

https://youtu.be/uhhV3EcxQP8

When I first started out shooting BP I too loaded my powder from my Mec 600 Jr.  I drove 285 miles down to Valdosta GA for an annual match there, spent the night in a hotel and "tried" to shoot the match. About a third of my shotgun shells had varying amounts of powder in them...you just never knew how little or much the "boom" would be.  VERY frustrating.  Got back and tore down the shotshells I had left over and found differing amounts of powder in them.  What I didn't know then but what I know now is the BP will clump or bridge if you don't pour it out into something first and break up any of the clumps.  So now I just use the Lee dippers and each and every shotshell has the correct amount of powder in it, every time.

 

Kajun (what dips his BP)