Mirakou Winchester 38/357 chamber issue

[Tall John]

After putting about 25 rounds thru my mirakou 1873, my gun jammed.  After clearing the jam I found that the rifle won’t fully chamber a round.  Any round (tried multiple rounds with different bullets) even though they will chamber in my other 1873, my nmv’s and my chamber checker.  The bore is clear and accepts cleaning rods, snakes and brushes.

 

on further inspection,  there appears to be some ting obstructing the chamber.  Any thoughts? 

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Looks like a case separation.

 

Thought I better come back in case you are not familiar with this.  A case separation is where the cartridge case breaks in two and part of the case stays in the chamber while the back half with the rim is ejected.  One way to get out the piece is with a broken shell extractor like this one.  You load it into the chamber like a cartridge and close the lever.  The flanged end on the left goes through the broken piece and then expands back out so that, hopefully, when you open the lever it pulls out the broken part.  See if someone in your club has one of these.  Otherwise try a tight fitting bore brush with a patch on it forced down the barrel from the muzzle and see if you can push out the piece.

 

Edited August 23 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Agree 100% on case separation.

You can see it in the chamber.....

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

This is a good reason to look at your fired brass from the session as soon as you detect a hard chambering condition.  One will be much shorter.

 

In future:

Avoid cannellured brass in .38 special or .357 - they tend to split badly.  As well, avoid nickel plated brass - they crack about 3x as fast as do solid brass cases.  Can check for cracks in cases if you are reloading, before you start processing them.  Shaking a handful and listening carefully for a ting-a-ling sound will let you find split or cracked cases.

 

If you don't find someone with a case extractor, then I suggest you get and use a small amount of CerroSafe chamber casting alloy from Brownells.  It melts over boiling water.  It gets poured molten into the chamber (with a plug of cleaning patches just in front of chamber, stuffed into the bore).  The alloy solidifies in a couple minutes and a solid cleaning rod from the muzzle will drive out the alloy and the case segment that adheres to the alloy.  Form a small funnel from four-folded layers of aluminum foil to guide the alloy right into the chamber instead of filling up the receiver with it.  I always disassemble the rifle taking out the lifter and bolt parts at least to make more room and avoid splashes freezing those parts in the gun.

 

Do NOT be tempted to start scratching around in the chamber with a pick, a punch or other steel parts!   There is great risk you will damage the chamber and have serious problems.

 

This is such a common problem for SASS shooters that no one who shoots a .38 caliber rifle in competition should go to the range without a broken case extractor for that caliber!

 

good luck, GJ

Edited August 23 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Tall John]

Great advice guys!  THANKS!

[Texas Red]

Wish one was available for 44-40....

TR

[Go West]

I found out the hard way about nickle cases and cases with cannelures many years ago. A local gunsmith at the time did the Cerrosafe thing and got it right out. I went through my cases and through out every nickle case and those with cannelures. That was prior to the newer case extractors coming out. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

In 25 years I've only ever had a single case separation (it was a .38).  It happened when I loaned my carbine to another shooter for the last stage after his firing pin broke.  A friend had the Shotgun Boogie case extractor.  It didn't work.  A gunsmith suggested pushing a cleaning rod down the bore, screwing a brush onto it at the chamber end, then pull it forward until some of the bristles are past the front edge of the brass piece, at an angle.  Then push it back to grab and extract the brass piece.  Good idea, but it didn't work either.  There was some other idea about stuffing paper towels into the chamber so they would catch the rough edge - I forget the details but it didn't work.  What finally did the job was driving several bullets down the bore (like slugging the bore) with the action closed until they stacked up and spread out to fill the chamber, and that finally grabbed the piece.

 

I have read about the likelihood that brass with cannelures increases the odds.   My brass is mixed and many have the cannelures.   When I'm shooting the same ammo in rifle and pistols at monthlies, I look at the ammo at the loading table and as much as possible load any rounds with cannelures into the pistols before loading the rifle.  Maybe I'll pay more attention at annuals.  But at once per 25 years, I don't fret about it much. 

[Lead Monger]

I use nickel plated 38 brass by the thousand and simply throw the split ones away. I loose more brass in the gravel and weeds than to split cases. I do not use cannelured brass plated or not after having one separate years ago.   

[Sedalia Dave]

I use round balls for my C&B pistols to remove cases that separate like that. The trick us that you have to have a short length of brass rod just under bore diameter to put on top of the ball followed by a squib rod.  The short section keeps the rod from pushing through the round ball. Drive it down the barrel from muzzle to breech. 

 

When doing so make sure the action is closed. I broke the ejector on a Marlin when it popped out of the chamber. Now I drive it until it hits the bolt face, then open the action and protect the extractor and ejector with a small piece if heavy leather. Then tap it out the last little bit.

[Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L]

My Miroku 73 in 44-40 was doing the same thing. Like Sedalia Dave I just drove a bullet down from the muzzle and cleared it. Mine started to do it regularly, It baffled a few good Smiths, One said he thought the lever spring had gotten weak and it had been lightened, no new springs were available so he made a helper, That worked until I found a source in Germany for springs. I've only shot it about 50 rounds so far, but that seems to have fixed it. 

[Tall John]

8 hours ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said:

My Miroku 73 in 44-40 was doing the same thing. Like Sedalia Dave I just drove a bullet down from the muzzle and cleared it. Mine started to do it regularly, It baffled a few good Smiths, One said he thought the lever spring had gotten weak and it had been lightened, no new springs were available so he made a helper, That worked until I found a source in Germany for springs. I've only shot it about 50 rounds so far, but that seems to have fixed it. 

bob,  

 

did you use a round ball or a 44-40 lead bullet?

[Tall John]

I have not been able to find a .38/.357 on any of the usual distributor, social media or auction sites so it makes me wonder if it was ever made.  I see a lot on eBay in mil calibers and some in 45colt but not 38/357.

 

ive tried using a brass rod to push a .41, .45 & 12ga brass brush down the muzzle.  I’ll next try pushing a bullet. If I can get it started -and if that doesn’t work then I’ll strip it down and us cerosafe.

[Brazos Bo]

Same happened to me. The recommended brushes, paper towel, etc didn't work. The head scratching yielded  a solution.

5/16" bolt (for .38 &.357)  and used hacksaw to make screw driver slot. Wrapped a little tape around the rear portion to keep centered and protect chamber leaving about a quarter inch of threads exposed at the tip, then gently screw it into the brass a little bit just enough to grab it then use cleaning rod to tap it out. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

2 hours ago, Brazos Bo said:

Same happened to me. The recommended brushes, paper towel, etc didn't work. The head scratching yielded  a solution.

5/16" bolt (for .38 &.357)  and used hacksaw to make screw driver slot. Wrapped a little tape around the rear portion to keep centered and protect chamber leaving about a quarter inch of threads exposed at the tip, then gently screw it into the brass a little bit just enough to grab it then use cleaning rod to tap it out. 

 

 

Bo, you told me about that but I forgot since I haven't needed to do it.  That is Southern Engineering at its finest. .  

[Brazos Bo]

8 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

 

Bo, you told me about that but I forgot since I haven't needed to do it.  That is Southern Engineering at its finest. .  

Necessity is the mother of all invention! 😉

 

[Sedalia Dave]

6 hours ago, Tall John said:

I have not been able to find a .38/.357 on any of the usual distributor, social media or auction sites so it makes me wonder if it was ever made.  I see a lot on eBay in mil calibers and some in 45colt but not 38/357.

 

ive tried using a brass rod to push a .41, .45 & 12ga brass brush down the muzzle.  I’ll next try pushing a bullet. If I can get it started -and if that doesn’t work then I’ll strip it down and us cerosafe.

 

Any pure lead round ball will work. Use a non-marring hammer and pound it into the muzzle. The excess will get shaved off. Continue driving down the barrel with a short section of 5/16" brass rod. (You can also use a 5/16 brass toilet bolt with the head cut off.) Then continue to drive it down the barrel with a squib rod. NOTE a thin cleaning rod will not work it will just bend. A squib rod should be a minimum of 1/4" in diameter.

 

You can also use a 38 caliber bullet but they are harder to drive down the muzzle than a pure lead ball.

[Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L]

7 hours ago, Tall John said:

bob,  

 

did you use a round ball or a 44-40 lead bullet?

I used a 44-40 bullet

[Tall John]

8 hours ago, Brazos Bo said:

Same happened to me. The recommended brushes, paper towel, etc didn't work. The head scratching yielded  a solution.

5/16" bolt (for .38 &.357)  and used hacksaw to make screw driver slot. Wrapped a little tape around the rear portion to keep centered and protect chamber leaving about a quarter inch of threads exposed at the tip, then gently screw it into the brass a little bit just enough to grab it then use cleaning rod to tap it out. 

I saw a u-tube where they used a rattailfile but getting I like your guys idea better.  I wonder if a lead 9mm .356 powder coated bullet would be easier?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

33 minutes ago, Tall John said:

I saw a u-tube where they used a rattailfile but getting I like your guys idea better.  I wonder if a lead 9mm .356 powder coated bullet would be easier?

Try a jacketed 9mm bullet. 

Drive it base first from the muzzle.

[Tall John]

Well the 9mm and .357 147gr hi-Tek bullets didn’t work.

 

 

 

Edited August 25 by Tall John

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yep, that's the problem with driving bullets through.  Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't.  Same with Magic.  

 

Haven't had CerroSafe fail yet.  Nor have I failed when using a broken case extractor.

 

good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, Tall John said:

Well the 9mm and .357 147gr hi-Tek bullets didn’t work.

 

 

 

Try a jacketed 9mm bullet 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

That's why I had to drive 3 or 4 bullets down the bore with the action closed, so they fill and obturate (expand) in the chamber as it gets full until the lead grabs the case.

[Sedalia Dave]

Most of the time, 9mm bullets will not work. They are too small and unless dead soft will not obturate enough.  

 

Do not use a file.  The possibility of damaging the chamber is too great IMNSHO.

 

Do like Abilene suggested and insert two or three bullets nose first, (those 9mm would work great) into the chamber and close the action. Then drive a pure lead ball down the barrel. Once it bottoms out drive another one on top of it.  Give them a few good wacks to ensure they obturate well then open the action and drive everything out.

 

I noticed that one of the 9mm bullets looks like the squib rod pushed through it.  This is why I use a short section of 5/16 rod between the bullet and the squib rod.  It pushes on a greater surface area and the squib rod will not push through the bullet.

Alternatively if you have a metal cleaning jag that fits the barrel good you can use it.

[Tall John]

Cerosafe to the rescue!  Easier than everything else!  Thanks for all your help pardners!

 

I lined the lifter area with tin foil and made a little ramp/ funnel out of some aluminum pie plate and heated a small chunk of Cerosafe in my Lyman lead ladle that has the little pour spout, plugged the barrel with cotton patches and poured away.  Any spillage peeled right off of my vice and gun.

 

Edited August 25 by Tall John
Added text

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

4 hours ago, Tall John said:

Cerosafe to the rescue!  Easier than everything else!  Thanks for all your help pardners!

 

I lined the lifter area with tin foil and made a little ramp/ funnel out of some aluminum pie plate and heated a small chunk of Cerosafe in my Lyman lead ladle that has the little pour spout, plugged the barrel with cotton patches and poured away.  Any spillage peeled right off of my vice and gun.

 

Very best of news! 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Just so folks will find that alloy in a search, it's spelled "Cerrosafe."

https://www.brownells.com/tools-cleaning/bore-barrel-tools/reamers-cutters/cerrosafe~-chamber-casting-alloy/

 

This is a different way to spell the "sera" sound than with the metal coating - Cerakote.   English is complicated enough (being a dog pile mix of languages that came before), then we have companies making up new words for their products every day.  

 

good luck, GJ