Mississippi's Shotgun Pistol in El Dorado and other weird firearms in old Westerns.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I was watching El Dorado again and I was, again, taken by the "shotgun pistol" that the character of Mississippi carried.

I found myself wondering if there was any way such a gun could be legal without running afoul of NFA '34.  The only way I could think of was if the barrels were rifled, ostensibly for slugs.   But then I got to thinking that this would create other problems.

And of course, this led me to wondering about other things, such as the general idea of how a lot of strange guns show up in a lot of different Westerns.  I'm not talking about rare and obscure things, but stuff that's just plain weird customizations created not by a gun manufacturer back in the day, or a strange customization by a frontier gunsmith, but just plain exotic things that are pure Hollywood.   Granted, something like Mississippi's shotgun very well could and probably did exist on the Frontier, but even it was not "factory gun."

So, that led me to thinking about some of the strange stuff we saw in those old movies and TV shows.

Probably the simplest and most obvious would by a 92 Winchester with the big loop lever.  Winchester never did that back in the day, it's a pure Hollywood invention.

Closely related would be the Mare's Leg.

And let's not forget the "Hollyweird Henry."

Or for that matter, how many of us have heavily customized and modified gun that it has become really far removed from what it was when it left the factory?
That cartridge converted LeMat used by Johnny Ringo certainly qualifies.

You could argue, so does Wyatt Earp's Buntline Special.

In other words, there was a lotta cool stuff in Westerns that never existed in the Old West, but maybe the could have, but more importantly, wouldn't it be cool if more of them were being sold on the reproduction market for us to play with.  Not necessarily in our game, but just for fun.

What other odd guns to folks remember from Hollywood?

Edited August 20 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

[paradiddle]

I think a couple westerns really stand out for me firearm wise.

The first is Bone Tomahawk - which is certainly not a traditional western but has a pistol I've never seen, and frankly hadn't heard of.  a Merwin, Hulbert & Co. Frontier Army.  I know there was a brief attempt to make replicas of these that never fully took off.

 

That movie also had several Schofields and Remington Model 1890s.  All pretty cool "niche" firearms for a western.

 

 

Joe Kidd famously had the C96 Broomhandle Mauser that was heavily featured as well as some super cool and rarely seen bolt action riflese.

 

The Wild Bunch goes without saying and not because the firearms were all that rare, just rarely seen in a Western.

 

This website is the coolest reference when it comes to firearms in movies and TV.

 

https://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Main_Page

 

 

 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I've got two M&H's.   A pocket pistol in .38 S&W, and a full size .44-40.   Both of mine have a top strap, not the open top, design.

[Alpo]

14 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I've got two M&H's. 

That's okay. I've got a 12 gauge pistol.

 

[Alpo]

And Johnny Yuma, the rebel, carried the same shotgun that Mississippi carried.

 

 

 

I wonder if he's the guy that couldn't see so good, and shot the piano player?

[Texas Lizard]

10 minutes ago, Alpo said:

That's okay. I've got a 12 gauge pistol.

 

Ever shoot this thing???

 

Texas Lizard

[Alpo]

This wasn't a western, but in The Untouchables Sean Connery had a sawed-off double.

 

 

 

Wasn't the same gun though. Like mine, his was a Rossi Overland.

 

 

[Rip Snorter]

FYI - You can have one https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/street-legal-shorty-double-barrel-pedersoli-howdah-45-410-full-review/

[Alpo]

9 minutes ago, Texas Lizard said:

Ever shoot this thing???

 

Texas Lizard

Sure. There's three ways to shoot it. You can shoot it from the hip, like Mississippi did in the movie. That's why he missed so often. If you just hold it from the hip your left hand has a tendency to pull it off target. If the gun yourYOU'RE hip shooting with has a buttstock, that's up against your right hip and it gives you direction. But just using a pistol grip, misses are more frequent than hits.

 

The easiest way to hit something is to hold it up like it still has buttstock. You pull it backwards with your right hand on the pistol grip, while pulling it forward with your left hand on the forearm. This locks it into place, and you can actually shoot and hit something. Just like aiming down a gun with a buttstock, except it doesn't have a buttstop.

 

The third way, and this is a lot of fun for the first two or three times, is you just stand there in an offhand position - put your left hand in your pocket if you want to - and shoot it like a pistol. Like I said, first two or three times that's kind of neat. Then that bruise the trigger guard gives your second finger starts to hurt.

 

Interestingly, the shells in the belt there - those are Challenger (Canadian brand) bird shot. Those blue ones are number nine. Red ones are 7 and 1/2s. I fired them, and I fired S&B two and three quarter inch buckshot.

 

The bird shot kicks more.

Edited August 20 by Alpo

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

FYI - From my sources, Merwin Hulbert's were the third most popular handgun in the old west, after Colt and S&W.

[J-BAR #18287]

Hollywood often substituted a double action revolver for the SAA when fast shots were needed.

 

Paul Newman's final volley in Hombre came from a Colt Police Positive.  Dan Duryea as Waco Johnny Dean in Winchester 73 dies in the street firing his gun double action.

 

I'm sure there are many more.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

Some years ago, while in Tombstone, I ran into a guy who had a Mississippi shotgun pistol. I don't remember what the original gun was, but to make it legal, it was chambered in .45 Colt. He used blanks in it.

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

2 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Hollywood often substituted a double action revolver for the SAA when fast shots were needed.

 

Paul Newman's final volley in Hombre came from a Colt Police Positive.  Dan Duryea as Waco Johnny Dean in Winchester 73 dies in the street firing his gun double action.

 

I'm sure there are many more.

Robert Mitchum shooting in the pew in El Dorado! Damn these HDTVs!  I believe just from the size it was either a Colt New Service or 1917 in .45 Colt, but I could be wrong and I am sure someone will correct me if need be. I would assume that the shotgun went thru the proper paperwork after the issues they had with the original Mare’s Leg in Wanted Dead or Alive. I believe someone posted here that the ATF came roaring in with fine of 10,000 and possible prison time, shut down production for a while. 

[Sedalia Dave]

11 minutes ago, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said:

Robert Mitchum shooting in the pew in El Dorado! Damn these HDTVs!  I believe just from the size it was either a Colt New Service or 1917 in .45 Colt, but I could be wrong and I am sure someone will correct me if need be. I would assume that the shotgun went thru the proper paperwork after the issues they had with the original Mare’s Leg in Wanted Dead or Alive. I believe someone posted here that the ATF came roaring in with fine of 10,000 and possible prison time, shut down production for a while. 

 

Colt M1917 chambered in 45 ACP

 

https://www.imfdb.org/wiki/El_Dorado#Colt_Model_1917

 

Edited August 20 by Sedalia Dave

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

9 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Colt M1917 chambered in 45 ACP

 

https://www.imfdb.org/wiki/El_Dorado#Colt_Model_1917

 

Knew someone would know, have a New Service, and I can’t tell the difference except for military markings and a landward “ring” on the butt. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

4 hours ago, Alpo said:

That's okay. I've got a 12 gauge pistol.

 

 

Is it NFA '34?

 

[Alpo]

Absolutely. You do something like that without doing paper first, you're kind of dumb. Then you put as many pictures of it on the web as I have of this and you would be really really dumb.

[Alpo]

I wore it to Mule Camp one year, and as I'm sitting in the mess tent this guy on my right glances down at it and says, "You know who's sitting on my other side? Sheriff somebody-or-other of some County North Carolina". Then he leans over to his buddy and says, "Tom, see what he's got?", and Tom glances over and says, "I'm sure he's got paper", and went right on slurpping down the Brunswick Stew.

[Tom Bullweed]

The 8-ga long-barrel double in Appaloosa.  Too much smoke.  Not enough distance in a bar to spread.  Too much recoil.

I thought a cool option that was available at the time would have been a Colt revolving shotgun with 20" barrel or a Spencer trombone action (pump shotgun).

[The Shoer 27979]

The museum at Yuma territorial prison has some scatter gun that, the barrels are not much longer then the shotgun shell

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

13 minutes ago, The Shoer 27979 said:

The museum at Yuma territorial prison has some scatter gun that, the barrels are not much longer then the shotgun shell

Mag 7 TV show, Buck Wilmington (Dale Midkiff) uses a sawed-off double-barreled shotgun

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

2 hours ago, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said:

Knew someone would know, have a New Service, and I can’t tell the difference except for military markings and a landward “ring” on the butt.

The Colt New Service was twice adopted as a sidearm by the Army.  

This is an M1909 in .45 Colt



It's hard to see, but the lanyard ring is there.  Other than markings, this gun is identical to the Colt New Service
.

 

This is a Colt M1917 in .45 ACP

 

Other than caliber and the grips, the 1909 and the 1917 are identical.  Both are Genuine GI.

 

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

56 minutes ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

Mag 7 TV show, Buck Wilmington (Dale Midkiff) uses a sawed-off double-barreled shotgun

And the character Vin used an 1873 Winchester Mare’s Leg with “I think” a regular loop lever, but my memory might be letting me down!  LOVED that show wanted it to stay on but good ole CBS said no!

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

15 minutes ago, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said:

And the character Vin used an 1873 Winchester Mare’s Leg with “I think” a regular loop lever, but my memory might be letting me down!  LOVED that show wanted it to stay on but good ole CBS said no!

Sorry, it was a '92. Vin Tanner (Eric Close) carries a Winchester Model 1892 "Mares Leg" Rifle as his weapon of choice in the series. (The Mare's Leg also was the weapon of choice for Steve McQueen in his TV Show Wanted: Dead or Alive, interesting since Eric Close plays the character Steve McQueen played in the original film.) Tanner's weapon has a large lever loop instead of the "D" lever.

I always wondered if Zoe's Mares Leg in Firefly was the same one. 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

 Does it have to be a cowboy gun?  I did a make-over of a Calico 100 semi-auto .22LR carbine.  I added a S&W 422 pistol that I vastly modified, a Gerber boot knife, and some other items to make a very unique rig.

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

 

41 minutes ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

Sorry, it was a '92. Vin Tanner (Eric Close) carries a Winchester Model 1892 "Mares Leg" Rifle as his weapon of choice in the series. (The Mare's Leg also was the weapon of choice for Steve McQueen in his TV Show Wanted: Dead or Alive, interesting since Eric Close plays the character Steve McQueen played in the original film.) Tanner's weapon has a large lever loop instead of the "D" lever.

I always wondered if Zoe's Mares Leg in Firefly was the same one. 

I am sorry too, but I beg to differ, he may have also used as shown in the picture but at the beginning of the series he had an 1873, I remember seeing and wondering why they used an 1873 instead of the 1892.   I will see if the series is on YouTube or some other channel. I am thinking it was the pilot that he used it when the fighting for the mixed race village among the cable channels. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

29 minutes ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

 Does it have to be a cowboy gun?  I did a make-over of a Calico 100 semi-auto .22LR carbine.  I added a S&W 422 pistol that I vastly modified, a Gerber boot knife, and some other items to make a very unique rig.

Pic please!

So, I guess not.   I had not also considered "Frankenguns" but why not?

I am often seen with a Big Iron on my hip.

Edited August 21 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

35 minutes ago, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said:

I am sorry too, but I beg to differ, he may have also used as shown in the picture but at the beginning of the series he had an 1873, I remember seeing and wondering why they used an 1873 instead of the 1892.   I will see if the series is on YouTube or some other channel. I am thinking it was the pilot that he used it when the fighting for the mixed race village among the cable channels. 

In the pilot, he used a 1873 rifle that he borrowed from the store. After that, he mostly used the Mares Leg.

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

And the 1873 was a 40” barrel with a scope on it, yes o remember that too. I found them on YouTube, will have something to watch this weekend. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

10 hours ago, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said:

And the 1873 was a 40” barrel with a scope on it, yes o remember that too. I found them on YouTube, will have something to watch this weekend. 

Fourty inches?!?   I like long barrels.  My go to shotguns are all 28 to 30 inchers.   (I have short barreled ones, but I prefer longer)   I like the look and feel of a 24 in barrel on my rifles, but at least half of my main match ones are 20" carbines.  (One is even a little shorter at 17-1/2)  

I think some of those "musket" 73 and 66's are really nifty.

But... 40 inches?   Good grief!   Does it have a full length magazine?   If so ho wany rounds does it hold?   Would it be considered "High Capacity?" 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

12 hours ago, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said:

And the character Vin used an 1873 Winchester Mare’s Leg with “I think” a regular loop lever, but my memory might be letting me down!

 

As far as I know, the only way to get a 73 Mare's Leg is to make your own.   And it can be done without running afoul of NFA '34...



I call it a Mare's Leg Buntline.   16.5" barrel, and I made sure the OAL was well over the minimum.  

Not at all practical, but "legally" it's just a rifle with a really short stock.   But fun as all get out to shoot!  (And I do have an unmodified stock for it if I want to use it as rifle.)

Holster was custom made for me by the makers of the holsters for my other, more conventional, 92 based Mare's Leg.

(Not SASS Legal of course, but still fun!)

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

10 hours ago, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said:

And the 1873 was a 40” barrel with a scope on it, yes o remember that too. I found them on YouTube, will have something to watch this weekend. 

My bad, no I believe it was a 30” barrel as I remember the “tube” scope was very long as well, thanks for catching my typo. 

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

In the 1876 Centennial Exposition, there were a display of Colt SAs. There were several 16" barreled Colts with detachable stocks. But they were called "Buggy Rifles".

Colt would sell any lenght barrel lenght on the SA, but charged for any lenght over 7.5 inches.

There was an article in Guns Magazine were author interviewing Josie Earp described Wyatt as favoring an extra long barrel. Then there's the story of a Bartender in Tombstone, Buckskin Frank Leslie who admired Wyatt and would dress like him and ordered a long barreled Colt that was to be identical to one Wyatt had. His order pre-dates OK Corral by several months.

So, there is the story by Lake, fiction? probable. Then you have Josie and an admirer who wanted to be like Wyatt stories.

According to records, only 40 Colt SA with lenghts greater then 7.5 were produced from 1877 to 1890.

 

Edited August 21 by Marshal Dan Troop 70448

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

My favorite “weird gun” from movies is the Remington Keene bolt action carried by the evil villains in Sons of Katie Elder and Crossfire Trail and also by one of the MacDonald wives in El Dorado

Edited August 22 by Mack Hacker, #60477

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

On 8/20/2024 at 7:18 PM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Pic please!

So, I guess not.   I had not also considered "Frankenguns" but why not?

I am often seen with a Big Iron on my hip.

I never thought to take any pictures of it.  Quick rundown, not necessarily in the order I did them.:

 

I cut off the phony muzzle cone and screwed on a nine inch tube that looked like silencer / flash hider. 

 

Had a friend make a skeleton rigid butt stock with sling swivels on top and bottom.

 

Took a factory accessory bipod, cut the legs off and add a folding, telescoping bipod from another source.

 

 Put a top mounted sling swivel on the front hand guard.

 

Put an aftermarket "Kelly" pistol grip on the front.

 

Used one of their "rat catcher" scope mounts and added an early red dot sight with and enormous cylindrical sun shield on the front

 

Bought two transparent and two solid black 100 round magazines and adjusted them so I had the original solid black one and four that were half transparent and half solid black.  Added a wind-up handle on each magazine (the company later added those all new ones.)

 

I put the whole thing in a black web Calico holster with a matching belt.

 

I bought two Calico black web double magazine carriers for the belt

 

Found  a silver colored skull buckle  for the belt and  a half dozen matching skull ear rings that I got from a head shop.  I used one of those on each pistol grip on the carbine.

 

Bought a S&W 422 6"(?) .22 pistol.  The barrel was under the spring so I drilled holes sideways above the barrel.  S&W later added oval holes to the model.  The muzzle was threaded, so I put 4" tube on it to make it match the carbine.  Two more skulls went on the pistol grips.  I found black web shoulder holster and put a skull on it, too.

 

I bought a cheap knock off of the Gerber #1 boot knife that had a black web sheath, so it got the last skull and a place on the gun belt.

 

All of the stocks, grips and handles were black...of course.

 

I finally added a web sling.  

 

Black boots, black Wrangler jeans, a black four pocket long sleeve work shirt, a black ski mask and a black watch cap, and black driving gloves finished it off.

 

I may have done some other things but that was 1980 and my memory isn't what it was.

 

I'd take it up to Lytle Creek and it  always drew a crowd.

 

California changed so I sold it to a guy from Roswell for about 50% more than I had in it.

 

 It was fun for a summer but it wasn't anything I really wanted and after the novelty wore off and the "atmosphere" got bad I let it go.

 

Sure could squirt through 500 rouns of .22  rounds with it.  Load all five magazines and wind them up and let 'er rip.

Edited August 22 by Forty Rod SASS 3935