New remington

[Horace Patootie, SASS #35798]

Here is a list of cartridges from an old advertisement.

 

[Alpo]

Notice, on that list of ammunition. They have both 45 government - that would be 45/70/500 - and 45 government carbine - that would be 45/50/405.

 

Now that makes sense.

 

But in the primed cases they sell both 45 government and 45 government carbine.

 

Why would the brass be different?

 

And the carbine brass was $2 cheaper per thousand.

[Horace Patootie, SASS #35798]

I thought carbine brass was shorter, IIRC.  

Horace

 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

All 45-70 (45 Government) copper cases were the same length.  Originally both the Rifle and Carbine loads used the same 405 grain bullet but the black powder loads were 55 gr with a spacer insert for carbine and 70 gr for rifle.  The case head stamp included a C for carbine and an R for rifle so they could be idenified after removal from the boxes.  When the Ordnance Department changed to a 500 Grain bullet in 1884 for the rifles they no longer needed to put the C and R on the head stamp because it was obvious which was which.  This was about the same time that tinned brass cases started replacing the copper cases and then eventually the tinning was stopped and just brass were used.

Edited August 20 by Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

just for FUN , lets throw the 45 Government pistol ctg , in the mix 

 

the one that would fit in both pistols 

 

  CB 

[bgavin]

I am so impressed with the amount of knowledge on display here.

 

Kudos to y’all.

Edited August 21 by bgavin

[ORNERY OAF]

Someone told me possibly 44-77, now that is a good cartridge,  I would be ok with that...cerasafe gets here Friday 

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

54 minutes ago, ORNERY OAF said:

Someone told me possibly 44-77, now that is a good cartridge,  I would be ok with that...cerasafe gets here Friday 

 

And down the hoooole we goooo....  

 

                            

 

Ornery, check out this thread that I started a few years ago... on this very subject!  I think you might find it entertaining, and perhaps even a mite useful....  

 

Hardpan's Rolling Block Quandry

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21 by Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967

[ORNERY OAF]

Wow, holy deja vou batman,lol....that thread sounds awful familiar...down the rabbit hike I go even further now after reading that one....I bought 2 rollings blocks that day, the mystery one and the one I was absolutely sure was a 50-70 as it fits perfect. I'm not going to question myself on this one.....maybe

A ton of info though, I saved that thread...thanks!

[ORNERY OAF]

[ORNERY OAF]

Ya know the old saying "a fool and his money".....well now ya know him. Estate sale, me saying heck ya I love rolling blocks, always wanted one, I will take these 2! 

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

3 minutes ago, ORNERY OAF said:

 

Just a "wild" guess, but that .50-70 sure looks like a New York State Militia rifle... and it's really a quite handsome piece at that!   

 

Curious... does the hammer automatically move to half-cock when you close the breech?  

 

If you're not already there, you might want to go to https://www.remingtonsociety.org/ and sign up ~ fast and simple, and much good info there.  

[ORNERY OAF]

I thinknthe hammer does that, I thought it was odd. I'm out of town till Friday, I will Check for sure. The rifle is in excellent shape.

[Sedalia Dave]

15 hours ago, ORNERY OAF said:

Someone told me possibly 44-77, now that is a good cartridge,  I would be ok with that...cerasafe gets here Friday 

 

Be sure to remove the extractor before you do the chamber cast.  It's a real PITA to clean if you get cerrosafe in the extractor groove with it still installed. 

[Sedalia Dave]

On 8/20/2024 at 3:03 PM, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

just for FUN , lets throw the 45 Government pistol ctg , in the mix 

 

the one that would fit in both pistols 

 

  CB 

 

As you sure you didn't mean the 50-45 Cadet?

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

14 hours ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

 

Just a "wild" guess, but that .50-70 sure looks like a New York State Militia rifle... and it's really a quite handsome piece at that!   

 

Curious... does the hammer automatically move to half-cock when you close the breech?  

 

If you're not already there, you might want to go to https://www.remingtonsociety.org/ and sign up ~ fast and simple, and much good info there.  

 

13 hours ago, ORNERY OAF said:

I thinknthe hammer does that, I thought it was odd. I'm out of town till Friday, I will Check for sure. The rifle is in excellent shape.

 

The New York State Militia rolling blocks were made by Remington NOT Spingfield Armory.  That is a Model 1871 Springfield rolling block.  Springfield Armory made several different rolling block rifles.  The first was the 1867 Navy Cadet rolling block, then in 1868 and 1869 they converted about 500 muskets each of those years into rolling blocks.  In 1871 they made 1,008 Model 1870 rolling block rifles for the Army field trials of 1871 & 1872 and in 1870-1871 they made the Model 1870 Navy rolling block rifles.  The first 10,000 (Type I) made in 1870 were rejected by the Navy due to location of the rear sight being too close to the chamber.  Springfield sold those to an intermediary who sold them to Remington who in turn sold them to France for use in the Franco-Prussian War.  From the proceeds of that sale Springfield in 1871 made 12,000 (Type II) Navy rolling block rilfes with the rear sight located further forward.  Then in 1872 they made 10,000 model 1871 rolling block rifles for the Miliita Units and State Guard Units (due to the funding source).  These model 1871 rifles were different from the model 1870 Army trial rifles in that when the block was closed the hammer when to half cock and it had to be pulled to to full cock in order fire the rifle.  All of these with agreements between Springfield and Remington.

 

Here are photos of my Model 1870 Navy Rolling Block (Type II)

 

Here are photos of my Model 1870 Army Trials Rolling Block

 

Here are photos of my Model 1871 Rolling Block

Edited August 22 by Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

As you sure you didn't mean the 50-45 Cadet?

No , the 45 Colt Government , pistol ctg . leangth of a 45 S&W Schofield with the rim slightly smaller than a 45 Colt 

ya gotta love the rabbit hole of old cartages 

[Alpo]

42 minutes ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

with the rim slightly smaller than a 45 Colt

I believe it was with the rim slightly larger than a 45 Colt. Because the 45 Colt had such a small rim it would not work with a swing out cylinder ejector star.

[ORNERY OAF]

2 hours ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

Then in 1872 they made 10,000 model 1871 rolling block rifles for the Miliita Units and State Guard Units (due to the funding source).  These model 1871 rifles were different from the model 1870 Army trial rifles in that when the block was closed the hammer when to half cock and it had to be pulled to to full cock in order fire the rifle.  All of these with agreements between Springfield and Remington

So is this why mine is marked Springfield 1872? If so, we're these made in a buttload of calibers lime all the rest?

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

11 minutes ago, ORNERY OAF said:

So is this why mine is marked Springfield 1872? If so, we're these made in a buttload of calibers lime all the rest?

Yes that is why yours is marked that way.  No ALL the Springfield Rolling Block Rifles were made in .50-70 caliber.

Edited August 22 by Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L

[ORNERY OAF]

Thanks Cowtown, that is great, I already got a springfield trapdoor in 50-70!! Reloading that one already, 

[ORNERY OAF]

Got the cerasafe and book this morning from Amazon, gotta hit harbor freight as the batteries in both sets of calipers are dead,of course. Gonna remove the extractor and cast the chamber this afternoon.  Oh the bore slug may be a little bigger that I thought(spring calipers suck)...this is the plugged ball sitting on top of a fired 45acp, so maybe 452-454? Will know today, this is kinda painful but fun.

[ORNERY OAF]

I'm wondering if this is a replacement barrel as it does not have a ladder sight or even tapped for one....also when taking it apart, it was absolutely no rust or pitting, the blocks and extractor were nicely greased...someone took very good care of This, and the rifling and chamber are fantastic

[ORNERY OAF]

OK Chamber cast! Bullet plugged at .454 with digital calipers .....so no I gotta research 

[ORNERY OAF]

Shoulder is like .50ish...

Overall case 2.4ish

Edited August 23 by ORNERY OAF

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

I am holding with the 11.5x57 Spanish Reformado , only thing I can find close 

 

 Good Luck 

 

  Chickasaw Bill 

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

I found an old thread on Cast Boolits about loading for the Reformado ~ if that's what it is....

 

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?272962-Sanity-Check-43-Spanish-Reformado

 

Ornery, if you'd like a factory .43 Spanish (not Reformado) case to "check for fit," shoot me an address on PM and I'll send ya one.

[ORNERY OAF]

So we thinking 43 spanish/reformado?

[ORNERY OAF]

Gonna be honest, I really don't want a reformado,lol..been reading and it sounds horrible.maybe fireform some spanish brass, use a 452 bullet, gotta have at least that for the barrel that slugs 452-454..Found a smith who specializes in RB...might get with him and check out my options for sleeve or rechambering or even rebarreling. What does the rogues gallery think? 

[DeaconKC]

Well if you bought it to shoot, you either can trade it towards one that is in a caliber you can use or have it rebarreled. Numrich might have a barrel you could use.

[Sedalia Dave]

Found some cartridge dimensions on   https://municion.org/buscador/  The site is in Spanish but has an English translation.

 

WARNING; this site is a rabbit hole and a half. You could spend hundreds of hours just browsing. There is a treasure trove of really good information on old obsolete cartridges as well as modern ones.  

 

You can find cartridge drawings and a bunch of others data for the 43 Spanish and the Reformado at the below links.

 

https://municion.org/producto/1115-x-57-r-spanish-remington-m-1869-1871-1889/

HISTORY:
This cartridge was adopted along with the Rémington model 1871 single-shot rifle. Outside our borders it is known as the .43 Spanish Remington. Load black powder and lead bullet. CAUTION: not to be confused with the 11.4 x 57 R Remington refurbished Mod. 1871/89. Virtually identical and known as .43 Spanish Reformado. The latter has a copper-wrapped bullet and a less marked bottleneck.

It was also used in Argentina, where it was popularly known as “Reminton Patria” (sic) and in Uruguay. See the article about the Uruguayan cartridge at the end of this text. There was a transitional variant, the 1871/79 model, for which we do not have more information. JOVIGARVAZ has found a small gem: the “Shooting Regulations”, published in 1887 by the War Depot printing press. Due to your great interest, we transcribe in full the part dedicated to the Remington Mod.1871 cartridges:

 

11 x 57.50 R Spanish Remington M.1871/89

HISTORY:

This cartridge is similar to the 11.15 Remington from which it is derived.

It was adopted for the Remington 1871 rifle with the chamber renovated according to the design of Lieutenant Colonel Freire and Commander Brull of the Military Pyrotechnics of Seville.

It was adopted by RO of 04/13/1889. The appearance of the 7mm Mauser in 1892 caused the decline of the weapon and cartridge, which in 1909 were declared expired. However, in 1915 Remington 1889 rifles were still delivered to the Civil Guard until enough Mausers were available (which in some positions did not happen until the civil war).

The main differences are that the case goes from bottled to slightly conical, and the projectile becomes armored and slightly thicker. There are two versions, with a flat base and with a Mauser A type base, this specific caliber is the one with the flat base.

The Remington model 1871 rifles had to be adapted to accept this cartridge, becoming known as “model 1871/89”. Basically the reform consisted of reaming the chamber to the new measurements and adapting the aiming elements to the greater range of the bullet. This reform allowed the use of model 1871 cartridges in transformed rifles if necessary, reformed bullets were even loaded in old cases that, when fired, acquired the shape of the new chamber.

La Pirotécnia de Sevilla also manufactured a shortened version for carbine, the 11×44 R Spanish Carbine.

Only the last batches were loaded with smokeless powder.

 

11 x 57.50 R Spanish Remington M.1871/89 Mauser A base

HISTORY:
This cartridge is similar to the 11.15 Remington.

It was adopted for the Remington 1871 rifle with the chamber renovated according to the design of Lieutenant Colonel Freire and Commander Brull of the Military Pyrotechnics of Seville.

It was adopted by RO of 04/13/1889. The appearance of the 7mm Mauser in 1892 caused the decline of the weapon and cartridge, which in 1909 were declared expired. However, in 1915 Remington 1889 rifles were still delivered to the Civil Guard until enough Mausers were available (which in some positions did not happen until the civil war).

The main differences are that the case goes from bottled to slightly conical, and the projectile becomes armored and slightly thicker. There are two versions, with a flat base and with a Mauser A type base, this specific caliber is the one with the Mauser A type base.

The Remington model 1871 rifles had to be adapted to accept this cartridge, becoming known as “model 1871/89”. Basically the reform consisted of reaming the chamber to the new measurements and adapting the aiming elements to the greater range of the bullet.

La Pirotécnia de Sevilla also manufactured a shortened version for carbine, the 11×44 R Spanish Carbine.

Only the last batches were loaded with smokeless powder.

 

[ORNERY OAF]

excellent info gang, oh and thanks Hardpan! I got an old pal here gonna drop a couple off for me to goof off with, just need to find a bullet that will be 452-454 and give it a shot, literally 🤪

[ORNERY OAF]

Some close ones for possible reaming,, or sleeve, 45-60, 45-75, 45-90 or 100, I would hate to rebarrel, she has a beautiful barrel. With 452-454 barrel, the big 45- are possible

[ORNERY OAF]

Maybe this for a fireformed 43 spanish for this?????? Hmmmmm

[Horace Patootie, SASS #35798]

I have one round of .43 Reformado. If it helps, I will mike it tomorrow and let you know the measurements.

Horace