1873 jamming issue

[Lefty Lead Shot]

I have a Cimmaron 1873 rifle with and 18" barrel in 357. I installed a Pioneer super short stroke kit, aluminum carrier, slixrspings for the lever and lifter, extended firing pin, super light hammer spring, lightened safety spring. I have done about 4 rifles with this exact setup. All work fine. This one jams while feeding every 10 to 15 rounds. It feeds the round halfway into the chamber and then jams. If I let off the lever then get back on it the rounds finishes feeding. I am running 38 specials with MBC #17 flat point round nose bullets. 1.440" OAL length. Round does miss the bottom lip of the bolt when it is leveled. I checked the bolt, no obstructions. Checked the timing, lever and lifter. Swapped out the short stroke kit, bolt, lever and carrier from another rifle. Same thing. Any advise??

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

You did a good job describing your situation.  So many people just say "my rifle is jamming please help."  No details.  The round going halfway in is a bit of a puzzle.  Is the back of the chamber mouth razor sharp?  Sometimes you have to go in there with a stone and round off the chamber mouth edges a bit.

[Lefty Lead Shot]

Larson it doesn't feel like it.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Try this to see if you can feel anything.  Lower the lever and push the carrier down.  Take a dummy round and start it into the chamber.  Put a TINY bit of down pressure on it and contine pushing it into the chamber with your finger.  Does it bind or drag?

[Lefty Lead Shot]

I feel a slight bit of drag from the pressure. That is about it.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I do not have any Pioneer short stroke guns to look at right now.  If no one else can come up with an idea give them a call they are usually very helpful.

Edited July 28 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[Null N. Void]

Possible carbon buildup in the chamber.  Really clean it out.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Does the serial # of your rifle have a “W” in front of the numbers?  If not, it’s an older model where the Pioneer SS kits won’t work. I ran into that problem several years ago and was able to return the kit without issue. 
 

As Larsen said, call Joe at PGW. great folks there. 
 

 

Edited July 28 by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

7 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Does the serial # of your rifle have a “W” in front of the numbers?  If not, it’s an older model where the Pioneer SS kits won’t work. I ran into that problem several years ago and was able to return the kit without issue. 
 

As Larsen said, call Joe at PGW. great folks there. 

Good thought but all the 18" '73's are from the "modern" era.

 

I would ask a few things.  This is when cycling dummies through or firing?  Since it does it fairly often, can you duplicate it levering slowly or must be at speed?  If it does it while going slow (or if you are fast enough to stop yourself) try to stop when it jams and before backing off the lever, see if pushing down the carrier does anything.  Is the carrier maybe trying to drop early (need more spring tension)? Also, if you can get it to do it with the side plates off, look for interference with springs/lifter/loading gate.  That's all my WAGs for now. 

[Lefty Lead Shot]

2 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Good thought but all the 18" '73's are from the "modern" era.

 

I would ask a few things.  This is when cycling dummies through or firing?  Since it does it fairly often, can you duplicate it levering slowly or must be at speed?  If it does it while going slow (or if you are fast enough to stop yourself) try to stop when it jams and before backing off the lever, see if pushing down the carrier does anything.  Is the carrier maybe trying to drop early (need more spring tension)? Also, if you can get it to do it with the side plates off, look for interference with springs/lifter/loading gate.  That's all my WAGs for now. 

All 3 of.my Cimarron 1873 have an "H" At the beginning of the serial number. Also the lever doesn't come all the way back to the frame with the short stroke toggles. I can get it to hang up on occasion levering slowly. I am not seeing anything that looks off.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

28 minutes ago, Lefty Lead Shot said:

All 3 of.my Cimarron 1873 have an "H" At the beginning of the serial number. Also the lever doesn't come all the way back to the frame with the short stroke toggles. I can get it to hang up on occasion levering slowly. I am not seeing anything that looks off.

With the lever closed as far as it will go, how far does the carrier block fall in the receiver, as compared to your other guns? (When looking at the bottom of the frame.)

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

1 hour ago, Lefty Lead Shot said:

Also the lever doesn't come all the way back to the frame with the short stroke toggles.

That is interesting.  Do the levers on your other guns go all the way to the frame?

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

If the lever is not closing against the frame then the lever where it engages with the lifter arm is hard up against it and the lifter is coming down to quick. Check inside  the

lifter you will probably see a scratch up on the upper side where the round slides through meaning the lifter is coming down too soon.

Grind and polish a little off the front part of the lever inside where it makes contact with the back of the lifter arm to give it a bit of tolerance.

It's the maching of the alumiuim lifter, measuring it against a brass one will show many differences. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Lifter arm seems like it is not fit properly so that it runs the short-stroke with the right timing.   Go back to your instructions for the short stroke kit and go through the fitting of the contact pads of the lifter arm.   DON'T file on the lever - the lever is left alone when fitting a short stroke kit. 

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

[Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L]

I've had trouble in some 73's with ammo loaded to less than 1.455. Try loading 1.475 and see if that makes a difference.

J.M.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

In another thread, Long Hunter was quoted by Pettifogger with a recommendation (complete with tin Type) for a different method for loading 38s (105Gr Vs 125Gr thread).

 

PLUS ONE for Garrison Joe.  DO NOT attack the Lever with anything.  The Lifter arm is incorrectly fit.  You're not done fitting it yet.

[Sixgun Seamus]

We looked at the rifle after our shoot on Saturday. One thing Lefty failed to mention was that the rifle also jammed without a cartridge on the carrier. That pretty much ruled out chamber and/ or bullet length problems.

Edited July 29 by Sixgun Seamus
can't spell

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

The only thing that should be keeping the lever from contacting the frame is the trigger safety.  (Green arrow)   The factory lever safety spring is often stiff enough it will hold the lever out until you lightly squeeze the lever.  (The lever safety spring on this rifle is very light so the little round spacer was needed to hold the lever open for the photo.)  If the lever will not contact the frame when squeezing it, as noted in other posts, you have a fitting problem.  Or if you bought the short stroke used you could have a bent lever or carrier lifter arm.

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Bent lever is the common reason for failing to close up tight against the lower tang.

 

good luck, GJ

[Pb Mark]

removed comment

 

 

Edited July 29 by Pb Mark
removed comment

[Lefty Lead Shot]

I talked to Joe over at Pioneer. At this point I am really starting think I have a bent lifter arm. I went so far as to put all the origional inside parts back into the rifle. The drag issue went away and the lever went back to making contact with the frame. I went ahead and ordered a new lifter arm.

[Pb Mark]

The lifter arms sent to me from Pioneer when ordered with a ss kit plus their aluminum lifter needed both flats on the lifter arm filed to fit.  The closing flat will hold the lever off the frame if not filed to fit.  It makes sense Pioneer would build lifter arms needed fit for both opening and closing since the lightweight aluminum lifter needs forced down in proper time also.  

 

As far as binding goes, this is a cut and paste from the Pioneer SS kit install instructions that discusses potential binding that might occur. I gave up on in the post above trying to write this one:

 

"One area where interference may occur is the point at which the links move past the lever and lifter arm springs while cycling. If there is interference, remove the links and lightly file the area where the links hit the springs. This will happen in a small percentage of rifles, but should be checked anyway. Also, interference may occur when the bolt is moving forward, just as the carrier starts moving downward. If this happens, file some material from the carrier where it is hitting the bolt. It’s best to check for clearance between the bolt and carrier while chambering a dummy round."

[Shawnee Hills]

I ran into a similar problem when installing a PGW SSS a couple of months back.  The lifter was fit correctly but the carrier would fall slightly when starting to close the lever.  In turn, this caused the bolt to occasionally bind in the carrier.  Turns out that the cam on the lifter had to be reprofiled so the spring could hold the lifter in position until the lever forced the arm downward. 
 

Another issue could be that the carrier is prevented from rising high enough by a bent lifter or from it hitting the frame.  If hitting the frame you’ll either need to remove material from the frame or the lifter arm itself.  Modifying the cheapest part is always better so modify the lifter. 
 

You can address the lever to tang fit by slightly bending the lever to fit.  However, the proper way to fix that is by removing material from the vertical face of the lifter arm.

 

Lastly, always check timing by ensuring rims clear the bottom tab of the bolt when holding the rifle at 45 degrees.  This keeps the round at its rearmost position in the carrier regardless of OAL.

 

Hope this helps. 

[Lefty Lead Shot]

Correct me if I misunderstand but hitting the frame is what sets the lift height for the carrier arm? I have a slight divot forming in the top of my lifter arm. Looks like it is where the arm makes contact with the frame.

[Shawnee Hills]

57 minutes ago, Lefty Lead Shot said:

Correct me if I misunderstand but hitting the frame is what sets the lift height for the carrier arm? I have a slight divot forming in the top of my lifter arm. Looks like it is where the arm makes contact with the frame.

You got it.  The problem could be that the 'stop' on the frame wasn't cut high enough to let the lifter raise the carrier to a point perfectly in line with the bolt.  It's rare but you may need to remove a few thou from the lifter arm (where the divot is now).  Before chewing on that, however, make sure that the timing is perfect and the cam on the lifter is allowing the spring to hold it correctly.

 

Apologies for not being clear in my earlier post.  I should have mentioned the importance of the 'stop' on the frame.

[Lefty Lead Shot]

I want to thank everyone for the help. I ended up having to take about .008" off of the rear lifter arm face where the lever strikes when you close it. I also had to take about .003" off of the top off the lifter arm where it strikes the frame when fully open. Everything seems to be in time now.