Reloading Advice for 44-40 black powder on a Dillion 550C using once fired brass

[T-Square]

I'm stuck and would like to get some expert reloading opinions. 

I am reloading 44-40 black powder on a Dillon 550C, using a .427 lead bullet. (shout-out:  Scarlett, she is the best !!)

When I have every die set in the Dillon 550C, and when I use a Starline virgin case - the bullet sits tight when hand-placed on case, the bullet seating die is awesome, the factory crimper holds tight - these are great rounds, that cycle well in my Jimmy Spurs rifle.

HOWEVER - when I use a once-fired piece of brass, well tumbled,  shiny, and clean, using the same die setting gives different results.

When I hand-seat the bullet on once-fired, it feels as perfect as the virgin example. BUT once the bullet is seated, the case allows the seated bullet to spin in the brass case, and the factory crimp is loose.  These rounds do not cycle well, and frequently jamb.

Remember - nothing on the dies has changed.  The Dillon powder funnel (no 4)  is manufactured for .429 bullets - so in both examples, the powder-drop barely touches the top of the brass. There is no case mouth expansion. 

When I hand-seat the bullet, they are good and tight, in both new and once-fired brass.  Why does the bullet spin, and I get bad results?

Is this why you see a lot of once-fired brass for sale on The Wire ?  I will call Dillion later in the week, when I have some afternoon hours to speak to a loading guy. I'm also going to get some .429 size bullets to try.

Thanks !

[Preacherman]

You can load the brass many times without any issues. I think that a .429 bullet will solve your problem. Bell the brass so that it doesn't shave lead. Most modern 44-40s like .429 bullets. Your fired brass has expanded and sizing probably doesn't like smaller bullets.

[DeaconKC]

There's an old trick of dipping tight case mouths of fired brass in powdered Mica.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012864366?pid=174134

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Hey T-Square:

It's not the brass -- I typically get 10 years & many loadings out of a batch of brass.

I agree that you most likely need a bigger bullet.
I buy 428 or 429 bullets for my 44-40, and, when loading black powder put a very tight crimp on them using a Lee FCD.

--Dawg

[Sedalia Dave]

Unless you are shooting original firearms chambered in 44 WCF your .427" bullets are going to be way undersized and will cause barrel leading. Practically every modern 44-40 rifle and pistol barrel will slug at a diameter of .429. So modern reloading dies size the neck of the brass expecting to be loaded with bullets that are .428" or larger diameter. 

 

 

Your virgin brass works because the neck is slightly smaller than what your sizing die resizes the brass to.

 

 First thing you need to do is slug the bores of your rifle and pistols to see what diameter they are.  Second if you are shooting Rugers in 44-40, the cylinder throats need to be reamed to .429" to match the barrel. 

 

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

After years of piddling around with different .44-40 rifles and pistols with bores ranging from .423 to .435 I went with the original Winchester and Colt specs - .427 for everything.  At SASS velocities never had any severe leading problems.  The problem you are having may be because Dillon has two expanders that they use for .44-40.  One for .427 and one for .429.  Check the code on you funnel/expander.  The one for .427 should be #4.  The one for .429 should be G.  To make matters even more confusing I have two really old E expanders that work fine for .44-40.  HOWEVER, the newer E's are for .45 Colt.  The only way to tell for sure is to take an accurate measurement of the expander neck.  The one for .427 should be around .423.

Edited July 23 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

1 hour ago, T-Square said:

The Dillon powder funnel (no 4)  is manufactured for .429 bullets - so in both examples, the powder-drop barely touches the top of the brass. There is no case mouth expansion.

I am not sure what this is supposed to mean.  What do you mean the powder drop barely touches the top of the brass?  Are you using a Dillon measure?  If so it should not drop powder unless the funnel/expander is going well into the case.  What do mean by there is no case mouth expansion?  If properly sized the funnel/expander should be expanding the case mouth or something is wrong.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

This is a reach, but...resizing was never mentioned.  You ARE resizing that once-fired brass, right?  Not accidently using a .45 sizer die which decaps but doesn't touch the case?  It could happen.

[Savvy Jack]

The dies you are using appear to be cut for .428/.429 diameter bullets, probably not for .4255 or .427

The resizing die appears to NOT "shrink" the case neck for .427 bullets

The crimp die appears to NOT crimp small enough for the .427 bullet.

 

If using Dillion dies, call Dillion and ask which diameter bullets the dies are cut for.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/ballistics-handloading/handloading/die-sets

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

First off, 44-40 brass is very thin at the case mouth. Only about .007 thick, vs about .012 for cartridges like 45 Colt.

 

So no matter what you do, that thin .007 of brass is not going to make a super strong crimp. It just does not bite the bullet with as much force.

 

On the other hand, my 45 Colt brass has a very strong crimp because the thicker brass bites right into the bullet.

 

 

I have a bunch of 44-40 rifles. Some are antiques, some are modern. I have slugged them all.

 

Working from memory, my Uberti 1873, which I bought used many years ago has a .427 groove diameter.

 

A couple of antique rifles have the old .427 groove diameter.

 

My Uberti Henry, which I have been shooting for about 20 years now, has a .429 groove diameter.

 

Anyway, a long time ago, not wanting to stock two different bullet diameters, I compromised on .428 diameter bullets for all my 44-40 loads.

 

I do all my reloading on my Hornady Lock and Load AP progressive press. I use a standard RCBS 44-40 die set, have been using it for many years.

 

Because the crimp the dies make is so weak, I use a Lee Factory Crimp die for the crimp.

 

Anyway, even with my .428 bullets the crimp is not very robust.

 

I just grabbed a few rounds and tried to twist the bullets, but they did not move.

 

However, I know for a fact that if I run dummies (without powder) through the action of my rifles, the follower slamming into the column of cartridges in the magazine will tend to telescope the bullets into the cases. Fortunately, with my Black Powder loads, the powder in the case forms a 'plug' if you will and prevents the bullets from telescoping into the cases.

 

Anyway, here is a photo of a couple of my 44-40 rounds. You can see how the Lee Factory Crimp die only 'smooshes' the brass into the crimp groove, the brass does not bite into the bullet.

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I use a Redding Profile Crimp die after a Dillon seater is used JUST to seat the slug but not to crimp it.  The Redding PCD die works very well.  I only use it for the 44-40 cartridge, I don't need that tight a crimp on other cartridges, just on 44-40 that has a very thin neck wall that does not like to hold a crimp firmly.  Certainly prevents the slug from being loose enough to twist in the case, since the die really tightens the neck of the case over the slug.

 

This is just one more thing that is a little harder when loading 44-40 or other bottleneck cases designed back almost 2 centuries ago.

 

good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

OP, do you seat and crimp in two separate stages? 

You should......

[Griff]

I'll defer to the judgement of the far more experienced .44-40 reloaders that have given their thoughts on correcting your issue.   But, will give you what I've learned in my few short years of loading for this cartridge.  I don't load any BP in my .44-40.  I do however load on a Dillon 550C using a RCBS Cowboy die set.  I only have one .44-40, an AWA Lightning.  I won't tell you what I think of the Lee FCD dies, as this is a family forum.  But I only have one, and only got that one to do a test on my .30-30 rounds.  I'd had it argued that the FCD make more "accurate" ammunition.  Well, no one can prove it to me... my own test results were simply that it made no difference whatsoever, except for adding a step in the reloading process... But, if it makes one feel more confident in their loads, that's a good thing.  In 50 rounds using a 2 die set from RCBS I purchased back in 1974 against 50 rounds adding the FCD.  Both first 3 round groups yielded identical group sizes at 100 yards.  Adding 2 additional shots simply filled in a final 5 shot group size of .92" from the bench out of the same rifle.  An additional 5 rounds of each finished off the 10 ring of each target,  It then became difficult to hold center, and after 50 rounds, there wasn't much left of the nine ring on either target.

 

But, germaine to your question, a good roll crimp is sufficient to hold even much harder recoiling rounds in tubular magazines.  Remember, the 44WCF was introduced in the Winchester 1873, it doesn't take a whole lot of crimp to hold the bullets at the case mouth with proper neck tension.  The case mouth doesn't need to "bite" into the bullet unless there's no crimp groove in the bullet, it simply needs to roll into the crimp groove.  Fully.  the .44-40 needs a crimp groove due the thin case mouth.   The bullet needs to be seated such that the case mouth is against the forward edge of the crimp groove.  This fully seated crimp, along with neck tension will hold the bullet in place.

 

Selecting the right expander for the .44-40 is crucial, as is consistent case length.  Especially if one seats and crimps in the same step.  With only the one .44-40 rifle, I just use .429 bullets with a nice crimp groove.  If I had a .427 groove diameter rifle, I'd probably still use that same bullet.  Before loading, I spray my cases with Hornady "One Shot" case lube and try to ensure that I get a bit on the inside of the case mouth, this eases the expander die in the Dillon into the case without crumpling them.  

[Bailey Creek,5759]

I shoot Goex Black Powder. And load on a Dillion 550.

I have my press grounded.

Years ago a company called Black Dawg sold upgrades for the 550 press and recommended it be grounded.

On your problem sounds like your powder drop tube isn’t going in the case far enuff.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Grounding your press does accomplish anything.

 

I used to work in the electronics industry and we were very aware of static electricity because small, undetectable sparks could destroy delicate circuits.

 

Every time you move through the air, you build a static charge on your body. You cannot feel it, but it is there.

 

So every time you touch your press, the static charge drains off of you, goes through the press, and then to ground through your ground wire.

 

The only way to prevent this is in addition to grounding the press, you have to ground yourself.

 

Grounding yourself consists of wearing a grounded wrist strap which will drain the charge off you as soon as it builds.

 

That way, there is no charge going through you to the machine, you are all at the same potential.

 

Also, in order to eliminate static charges, you have to remove all static generating things from your bench, such as wood, paper, and most plastics.

 

Without taking these extras steps, grounding your press does not accomplish anything.

Edited August 16 by Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

PLUS ONE for Driftwood.

 

Grounding a loading press is a waste of time and materials.

[Bailey Creek,5759]

It was my time and material.

[Griff]

I've been loading BP (mostly Goex) on my Dillons for 37 years without ever grounding anything.  When I lived in CA my loading setup was in the garage, since moving to TX 34 years ago, it's been in the workshop attached to my barn, concrete floor, no A/C or heat... same as CA.  It'd take a whopping huge static charge to set off the BP in a hopper.  There've been a few studies trying prove/disprove the myth of such.  All experiments I've read about have failed.  Oh yeah, failed to set off BP or smokeless.

[August West, SASS #45079]

O.P., you don't tell us some important details.

 

1. Are your .44 bullets specifically for the 44/40, or are they generic .44 bullets?

2. Are you crimping into the crimp groove on your 44/40 bullets, or are you crimping into the shank of your generic .44 bullets?

3. Is your once fired brass also Starline, or is it Winchester, or some off-brand?

4. When you say that your rifle jambs when shooting the previously fired brass, where does it jamb, how does it jamb, in what part of the cycle?

5. You imply that you're using Dillon Dies in your press, but don't really specify what brand of dies you're using?

6. Is the case length of your once-fired brass the same as the new, Starline brass? 

7. What does "hand-seat the bullet" mean?

 

 

Your problems are NOT due to the brass, nor the bullet diameter.  Your problem is either due to incomplete resizing/sizing the case, the way you are crimping the bullet into the case, or a combination of both.   In the absence of information, my guess is that your sizing of once-fired brass is incomplete.

 

Edited August 19 by August West, SASS #45079