Hey 45 Colt BP shooters!

[Burn Through]

10 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Maybe not your targets...

 

Do you know that it's the heat generated from the impact that causes damage?

 

Phantom

Are you seeing melted lead on the range after it has hit the target ?  lead does melt at a low temp , 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 minute ago, Burn Through said:

Are you seeing melted lead on the range after it has hit the target ?  lead does melt at a low temp , 

Has to do with a certain type of Energy...like...bullet has a bunch of energy as it's flying thru the air...then it like hit's the target and doesn't quite have the same energy.

 

Ever wonder where the energy went?

 

Phantom

[Burn Through]

I just thought the energy was absorbed by the target the bullet hit  ? Am I wrong in my thinking ? 

[Erasmus]

21 minutes ago, Burn Through said:

I just thought the energy was absorbed by the target the bullet hit  ? Am I wrong in my thinking ? 

 That energy goes towards a couple of things; making the target wing, and making heat. If you ever shoot at night you'll see red hot molten lead spray off the targets. 

 

That said, armor piercing ammo generally depends on velocity (being the bigger part of the energy equation) to impart a lot of energy on the target, which then creates a lot of heat, and physically melts a hole in the armor. 

 

If your target plates are getting dings in them it's because they're insufficiently hard, not because your cowboy ammo is over 1000 (or 1400) fps.  Likewise if your target plates are getting dings in them, they are not safe. Those dings cause ricochets to bounce at unpredictable angles. 

 

The moral of the story is that your club should be using hardened steel targets which are entirely capable of standing up to the punishment of all legal cowboy action loads. Likewise those hardened steel plates should be angled slightly down if they are hangers. 

Edited July 31 by Erasmus

[Dacotua]

Even AR500 will bend over time by bullet hits. The faster the velocity of the bullet, the more the impact of the bullet effects the steel plate (even AR500 steel). Generally the higher the velocity of the bullet, the more damage it causes to the target.  Over time, ranges will need to flip the AR500 plates around to prevent "Bowing" of the plates. They will bow if you don't flip them over time.  Generally if you shoot at plates with lower velocity, the plates take a lot less stress than if you shoot at them with higher velocity.  The targets will absorb the energy of the bullet striking it, angling the target will reduce some of the energy as the bullet defects away. However, over time, all steel targets will take some "damage", whether its pitting or bowing.  Energy is energy, the target will absorb it. Steel targets are a "wear" item. With proper maintenance and upkeep, the targets will last a long time.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Erasmus said:

The moral of the story is that your club should be using hardened steel targets which are entirely capable of standing up to the punishment of all legal cowboy action loads. Likewise those hardened steel plates should be angled slightly down if they are hangers. 

Are you referring to Abrasion Resistant Steel?

 

And secondly, not all clubs have the $$$$$ to buy a bunch of steel such as AR500.

 

If folks would just realize that their desire to live out the Old West...shooting relatively heavy loads, has a cost.

 

Phantom

[Griff]

3 hours ago, Burn Through said:

Are you seeing melted lead on the range after it has hit the target ?  lead does melt at a low temp , 

Why yes... what do you think that lead "smear" is?:

[Erasmus]

If a club can't afford proper steel, maybe they should rethink their club status. SASS has rules, the club should be able to handle anything that's legal.

 

Being able to handle the 'by the book legal' velocities might cost a club some extra money but, CAS is an expensive hobby right?

Edited July 31 by Erasmus

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

11 hours ago, Erasmus said:

If a club can't afford proper steel, maybe they should rethink their club status. SASS has rules, the club should be able to handle anything that's legal.

 

Being able to handle the 'by the book legal' velocities might cost a club some extra money but, CAS is an expensive hobby right?

Oh...gotcha.

 

I'm sure you've traveled extensively to many SASS clubs throughout the U.S. and have a vast knowledge base from which to develop your opinion.

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

[Erasmus]

The rules allow a lead bullet, of any hardness, at 1000 or 1400 fps (pistol or rifle respectively). Your targets should be up to the task. 

 

Nothing new here. 

 

Now that said, shooting 2.2CC of FFg under a 255 grain bullet just uses more lead and powder than is necessary. 

 

One pound of powder is 7000grains, if you're loading 30 grains (roughly 2.0CC) you get 233 rounds out of that pound of powder. If you're buying Goex for $25.00/lb (after tax and shipping) that works out to $0.107 (nearly 11 cents) per round. IME 2.0CC is about the least amount you can get in the case without having to use fillers. Up that to a 'full' charge of about 35 grains by volume (2.2CC) and you only get 200 rounds per pound at a cost of 12.5 cents/round. That's a $0.018/round difference. If you shoot two club matches per month (24 matches) and 6 regional matches (2 day events) and no side matches, you're looking at a round count of 120 rounds/match day * 24+12 match days = 4320 rounds for the year * 0.018 $/round difference = $77.76 more to shoot 2.2CCs vs 2.0CCs. That's the price of an additional 3 extra pounds of powder. 

 

Back your charge down to 25 grains by volume and you can load 280 rounds/lb. If you can load it down to 1.0CC of black (about 15 grains by volume with some additional filler) and you have a pretty minimal gamer load for FCD that gets you 466 rounds/lb and pretty well replicates the bottom end paper cartridge load meant for .44 caliber cap and ball shooters during the civil war (a 257 grain conical over 17 grains of powder, most paper cartridges were leaded heavier than that) as long as you make 60 PF and 400 fps minimum velocity in cartridge guns. I can say that 25-30 grains by volume under a round ball in a cap gun with a 5.5 inch barrel only makes about 600 fps or so IIRC, so I doubt such a small charge of black would make minimums in a cartridge gun. 

 

 

Edited July 31 by Erasmus

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

43 minutes ago, Erasmus said:

The rules allow a lead bullet, of any hardness, at 1000 or 1400 fps (pistol or rifle respectively). Your targets should be up to the task. 

You don't get it...

 

Or are you saying that if a club has targets that are up to the task that they should:

A: Reach into their deep pockets and buy good steel

B: Close the club down

😄 ?

 

Where exactly do you shoot???

 

Phantom

[Idaho Gunslinger]

1 hour ago, Erasmus said:

The rules allow a lead bullet, of any hardness, at 1000 or 1400 fps (pistol or rifle respectively). Your targets should be up to the task. 

 

Nothing new here. 

 

Now that said, shooting 2.2CC of FFg under a 255 grain bullet just uses more lead and powder than is necessary. 

 

One pound of powder is 7000grains, if you're loading 30 grains (roughly 2.0CC) you get 233 rounds out of that pound of powder. If you're buying Goex for $25.00/lb (after tax and shipping) that works out to $0.107 (nearly 11 cents) per round. IME 2.0CC is about the least amount you can get in the case without having to use fillers. Up that to a 'full' charge of about 35 grains by volume (2.2CC) and you only get 200 rounds per pound at a cost of 12.5 cents/round. That's a $0.018/round difference. If you shoot two club matches per month (24 matches) and 6 regional matches (2 day events) and no side matches, you're looking at a round count of 120 rounds/match day * 24+12 match days = 4320 rounds for the year * 0.018 $/round difference = $77.76 more to shoot 2.2CCs vs 2.0CCs. That's the price of an additional 3 extra pounds of powder. 

 

Back your charge down to 25 grains by volume and you can load 280 rounds/lb. If you can load it down to 1.0CC of black (about 15 grains by volume with some additional filler) and you have a pretty minimal gamer load for FCD that gets you 466 rounds/lb and pretty well replicates the bottom end paper cartridge load meant for .44 caliber cap and ball shooters during the civil war (a 257 grain conical over 17 grains of powder, most paper cartridges were leaded heavier than that) as long as you make 60 PF and 400 fps minimum velocity in cartridge guns. I can say that 25-30 grains by volume under a round ball in a cap gun with a 5.5 inch barrel only makes about 600 fps or so IIRC, so I doubt such a small charge of black would make minimums in a cartridge gun. 

 

 

Most of the clubs around me aren't even registered with SASS... so rules are subjective...

 

Also the 60 PF and 400 fps minimums only apply to smokeless rounds. BP rounds follow the smoke rule. 

44 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You don't get it...

 

Or are you saying that if a club has targets that are up to the task that they should:

A: Reach into their deep pockets and buy good steel

B: Close the club down

😄 ?

 

Where exactly do you shoot???

 

Phantom

Wait... We're supposed to shoot too? I thought the ones on here were the non-shooters?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

28 minutes ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

Wait... We're supposed to shoot too? I thought the ones on here were the non-shooters?

Well...stick around a while and you'll see that the Wire is full of folks that either have never shot or no longer shoot.

 

Like many SM forums, you can be whatever you want...and the majority of folks will believe ya.

 

Phantom

[Erasmus]

1 minute ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

Also the 60 PF and 400 fps minimums only apply to smokeless rounds. BP rounds follow the smoke rule. 

 

Wait... We're supposed to shoot too? I thought the ones on here were the non-shooters?

I mostly shoot Frontiersman (where I know it's just the smoke rule) and rarely shoot cartridge guns; I thought all of the cartridge stuff had to make PF and velocity. Good to know!

 

Certainly non-SASS affiliated clubs are free to make up rules as they see fit. 

 

 

 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just now, Erasmus said:

I mostly shoot Frontiersman (where I know it's just the smoke rule) and rarely shoot cartridge guns; I thought all of the cartridge stuff had to make PF and velocity. Good to know!

 

Certainly non-SASS affiliated clubs are free to make up rules as they see fit. 

 

 

 

 

Where do you shoot?

 

Phantom

[Erasmus]

Also of note, I have (in shotguns at least) noticed quite a bit of velocity difference between Shuetzen and Goex. I found the same load (a 7/8 oz of lead shot dipper full of FFg, nitro card, lube, cushion wad, 7/8oz lead shot dipper of shot, overshot card in brass hulls) of Shuetzen to be nearly 150 fps slower than Goex. So just like most BP shooters know Swiss is more energetic than other real black powders, Shuetzen is (at least in this application) less energetic than Goex. So moving a .45 Colt from FFg Goex to Shuetzen might reduce recoil a bit too. 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

An upper maximum velocity only limit never made sense to me. Why not set an upper power factor limit to a level that will not damage cheap scrap steel targets.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

12 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

An upper maximum velocity only limit never made sense to me. Why not set an upper power factor limit to a level that will not damage cheap scrap steel targets.

Oh come on now. According to Erasmus you shouldn't even try to be a SASS club if you can afford AR500 or Equiv. steel targets.

 

Phantom

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

30 minutes ago, Erasmus said:

Also of note, I have (in shotguns at least) noticed quite a bit of velocity difference between Shuetzen and Goex. I found the same load (a 7/8 oz of lead shot dipper full of FFg, nitro card, lube, cushion wad, 7/8oz lead shot dipper of shot, overshot card in brass hulls) of Shuetzen to be nearly 150 fps slower than Goex. So just like most BP shooters know Swiss is more energetic than other real black powders, Shuetzen is (at least in this application) less energetic than Goex. So moving a .45 Colt from FFg Goex to Shuetzen might reduce recoil a bit too. 

So I take it you don't shoot anywhere...gotcha!

 

Well I'm sure that there are clubs that would accept donations for steel in your area...just in case they're not a high end SASS club that only uses AR500 built targets.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

[Idaho Gunslinger]

15 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

An upper maximum velocity only limit never made sense to me. Why not set an upper power factor limit to a level that will not damage cheap scrap steel targets.

Velocity is what is directly correlated to damage not necessarily PF. Though I suppose enough PF could knock a target over and damage it that way.

Just now, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Oh come on now. According to Erasmus you shouldn't even try to be a SASS club if you can afford AR500 or Equiv. steel targets.

 

Phantom

[Erasmus]

20 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

An upper maximum velocity only limit never made sense to me. Why not set an upper power factor limit to a level that will not damage cheap scrap steel targets.

 

I wasn't there when they wrote them, but I would imagine it was an attempt to accommodate participants using commercial ammo.  

 

Where I shoot the targets seem to be doing well (I help put them away as often as I can), and more than one person typically shows up with full house black powder loads. 

 

Certainly there are rule changes that could be made that would reduce the cost of running a club AND participating in CAS making the game generally more accessible. 

 

Edited July 31 by Erasmus

[Griff]

14 minutes ago, Erasmus said:

I wasn't there when they wrote them, but I would imagine it was an attempt to accommodate participants using commercial ammo.  

Long before the current rules were developed, I was.  Back when the minimum Velocity was 650 fps.  Well before the minimum PF was ever considered.  But, this was when the only .32 was the .32WCF.  (.32-20 for you youngsters)..  Long before any clubs had armor plate steel.  Target damage was a constant problem.  And repairs to same was a constant drain on club manpower.  Another reason distances were farther than most can conceive of, or tolerate today.

14 minutes ago, Erasmus said:

Certainly there are rule changes that could be made that would reduce the cost of running a club AND participating in CAS making the game generally more accessible. 

This has been a topic of discussion for as long as I've been in SASS... actually, before... And all proposals have come up short.  But, as always, come up with some ideas, implement them at your club, and report back on the results.  

Edited July 31 by Griff

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

16 minutes ago, Erasmus said:

Where I shoot the targets seem to be doing well

Where's that?

 

😆

[Idaho Gunslinger]

9 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Where's that?

 

😆

On the Wire of course  

[Erasmus]

 

12 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Where's that?

 

😆

 

3 minutes ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

On the Wire of course  

So anyway, any black powder .45 Colt shooters try 1.0CC (15 grains by volume) of black and a LOT of filler? The OP stated 1.6CC of FFg and 1.0CC of filler, which would be about 24 grains by volume of black and nearly 39 grains by volume total charge under a 200 grain bullet. 

Edited July 31 by Erasmus

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

On 7/16/2024 at 8:21 AM, Dantankerous said:

This weekend I tried a new recipe for 45 Colt black powder. I had been using the standard "full load" to maintain simplicity but follow-up shots on the revolver were much slower than I wanted due to, you guessed it, recoil. I have been using Goex and Swiss FFg as my BP choice but my APP loads yielded identical recoil results from my Rugers. Bullets are BP lubed 200 grainers. Based on suggestions I obtained from posting on this site I tried a BP load of a Lee 1.6 cc dipper followed by a 1.0 dipper of filler, in this case I used Cream of Wheat. Fed 150 LPPs.

 

The results are much lower recoil with all the smoke and fire. Not zero recoil, but MUCH more manageable. Sure, it takes another step in the reloading process, but very worth the extra effort. 

 

Hope some of you find this helpful.

 

😀

That is also my BP load for .45 pistol, 1.6cc of FFg, 1 cc grits, 200gr bullet.  That is what I'm shooting in my profile pic.  It is still powerful enough that I don't want to shoot it one-handed any more.

 

[Idaho Gunslinger]

5 minutes ago, Erasmus said:

 

 

So anyway, any black powder .45 Colt shooters try 1.0CC (15 grains by volume) of black and a LOT of filler? The OP stated 1.6CC of FFg and 1.0CC of filler, which would be about 24 grains by volume of black and nearly 39 grains by volume total charge under a 200 grain bullet. 

I plan to try this here soon. I'm going to do 25gr by weight and top of with filler (sounds like 1.0cc is what I need) and a 200gr bullet. 

 

I shot the first 4 stages with my usual smokeless loads that have a PF of 90. For stage 5 I decided to try out my BP loads that I had yet to shoot before. 250gr bullet on top of 30gr (by volume) of 777. When chrono'd they have a PF of 243. Anyway, timer went beep and I forgot I changed ammo. Boy was that a surprise! 

 

[Erasmus]

1 minute ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

I plan to try this here soon. I'm going to do 25gr by weight and top of with filler (sounds like 1.0cc is what I need) and a 200gr bullet. 

 

I shot the first 4 stages with my usual smokeless loads that have a PF of 90. For stage 5 I decided to try out my BP loads that I had yet to shoot before. 250gr bullet on top of 30gr (by volume) of 777. When chrono'd they have a PF of 243. 

 

777 is very energetic. What prompted loading 30 grains of 777 anyway? Just putting it in easy mode and loading a case full? That's what lead to me doing the same with FFFg Goex, just not wanting to deal with fillers. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

14 minutes ago, Erasmus said:

 

 

So anyway, any black powder .45 Colt shooters try 1.0CC (15 grains by volume) of black and a LOT of filler? The OP stated 1.6CC of FFg and 1.0CC of filler, which would be about 24 grains by volume of black and nearly 39 grains by volume total charge under a 200 grain bullet. 

Here's where I shoot rather regularly...

 

1. Briggsdale County Shootist

2. Wildcat Ridge (not SASS affiliated)

3. Plum Creek Shooting Society

4. Green Mountain Regulators

 

All are great clubs that do their damnedest to provide good targets...

 

Aren't you a little embarrassed to demean clubs that can't afford perfect steel for this game when you don't seem to even support a SASS / CAS club?

 

Phantom

[Idaho Gunslinger]

1 minute ago, Erasmus said:

 

777 is very energetic. What prompted loading 30 grains of 777 anyway? Just putting it in easy mode and loading a case full? That's what lead to me doing the same with FFFg Goex, just not wanting to deal with fillers. 

It's earlier in this topic but the unofficial category of "Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation" requires a full case of real BP or 777 and a 250gr bullet. Shot one Duelist only.

 

And just for the fun of trying it out. 

[Erasmus]

2 minutes ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

It's earlier in this topic but the unofficial category of "Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation" requires a full case of real BP or 777 and a 250gr bullet. Shot one Duelist only.

 

And just for the fun of trying it out. 

 

Gotcha. For me it was just being lazy at my first Josey Wales match. I found that 1.0CC of FFFg filled to the base of a 158 grain bullet in my .38s, and 2.0CC of FFFg filled to the base of my 255 grain bullet in .45. I normally shoot Frontiersman with a pair of .36s, but my main match rifle is a 92 in .44 mag. Even it gets 2.2 CC of FFFg APP under a 205 RNFP Bear Creek bullet, but the last time I chronographed it I was only getting 1100 fps or so out of that rifle. I've just never wanted to take the extra step of using a filler. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I know some people say they went to smaller cases so they didn't have to use filler.  But I'm dipping the BP on my .45's anyway, so dipping in the grits doesn't add much time.

[Erasmus]

6 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I know some people say they went to smaller cases so they didn't have to use filler.  But I'm dipping the BP on my .45's anyway, so dipping in the grits doesn't add much time.

Yeah, I guess lots of folks like the C45S cases, though I don't see them at my local matches. I see some utility, but not enough to swap out the cases I already have. 

 

You're right though, it's not much more to have another coffee cup filled with cream-o-wheat next to my coffee cup-o-powder. 

 

When I load APP I'm loading from a hopper mounted on my press, that would be a bit more troublesome. 

Edited July 31 by Erasmus

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

It's earlier in this topic but the unofficial category of "Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation" requires a full case of real BP or 777 and a 250gr bullet. Shot one Duelist only.

 

And just for the fun of trying it out. 

As has been said here many times, your payload (bullet weight) has more to do with felt recoil vs. charge weight.  moving to a 160 bullet will have far greater impact on recoil.

Edited August 1 by Griff

[Erasmus]

Has anyone experimented with just mixing in your grits, cream-o-wheat, whatever with your black powder? I.e. just mix 1 lbs of black (say FFg) and a 1/3rd lbs of grits, give it a shake, and load with 1 dipper?