Hey 45 Colt BP shooters!

[Dantankerous]

This weekend I tried a new recipe for 45 Colt black powder. I had been using the standard "full load" to maintain simplicity but follow-up shots on the revolver were much slower than I wanted due to, you guessed it, recoil. I have been using Goex and Swiss FFg as my BP choice but my APP loads yielded identical recoil results from my Rugers. Bullets are BP lubed 200 grainers. Based on suggestions I obtained from posting on this site I tried a BP load of a Lee 1.6 cc dipper followed by a 1.0 dipper of filler, in this case I used Cream of Wheat. Fed 150 LPPs.

 

The results are much lower recoil with all the smoke and fire. Not zero recoil, but MUCH more manageable. Sure, it takes another step in the reloading process, but very worth the extra effort. 

 

Hope some of you find this helpful.

 

😀

[JackSlade]

Yessir. I followed a guide on YouTube of an old gentleman's tutorial on loading gallery loads.

I load 10.5gr of fffg 777, veggie wad, and then load with cornmeal, compress, and use the same 200gr bullet. The recoil impulse is perfect for my SAAs, feels like my 125gr 38s. I haven't loaded goex yet, but I'll try some out next range trip.

Edited July 16 by JackSlade

[Sedalia Dave]

Try loading those 45s with some Fg vice FFFg. Seat the bullet so that its just touching the powder vice heavy compression. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Hey Dantankerous,

 

Unless your "set" on 200Gr bullets, My APP load is about the same as yours but I run 165gr RNFP.  Nice easy recoil.  You don't need BP lubed bullets, or any lube with APP, but BP lube or any lube does no harm at all.  APP simply doesn't care about lube.

[JackSlade]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Try loading those 45s with some Fg vice FFFg. Seat the bullet so that its just touching the powder vice heavy compression. 

For what purpose?

Also, my powder doesn't get compressed more than hand pressure with a dowel, the cornmeal gets compressed to make bullet seating less messy.

I've heard goex likes more compression than less, but I haven't shot 45lc with it yet.

[Vic Halls]

10 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

This weekend I tried a new recipe for 45 Colt black powder. I had been using the standard "full load" to maintain simplicity but follow-up shots on the revolver were much slower than I wanted due to, you guessed it, recoil. I have been using Goex and Swiss FFg as my BP choice but my APP loads yielded identical recoil results from my Rugers. Bullets are BP lubed 200 grainers. Based on suggestions I obtained from posting on this site I tried a BP load of a Lee 1.6 cc dipper followed by a 1.0 dipper of filler, in this case I used Cream of Wheat. Fed 150 LPPs.

 

The results are much lower recoil with all the smoke and fire. Not zero recoil, but MUCH more manageable. Sure, it takes another step in the reloading process, but very worth the extra effort. 

 

Hope some of you find this helpful.

 

😀

You using APP FF ? Uncle Bulldog 

[Griff]

Since yer using 'em in pistols... get yourself a 45 Auto roll crimp/seater die, buy some Cowboy 45 Special brass from Starline, 160 grain powder coated bullets, use the same powder charge and eliminate the extra step in using a filler.  

[Uriah, SASS # 53822]

45 S&W in pistols, 25 gr FFG Diamondback, 45 PRS (235gr I think), 600 fps.

 

Uriah

[German Jim]

20 hours ago, Uriah, SASS # 53822 said:

45 S&W in pistols, 25 gr FFG Diamondback, 45 PRS (235gr I think), 600 fps.

 

Uriah

Diamondback is gone unless you know where to get some or have a large stash.

[Silver Creek Jack]

On 7/16/2024 at 1:19 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Hey Dantankerous,

 

Unless your "set" on 200Gr bullets, My APP load is about the same as yours but I run 165gr RNFP.  Nice easy recoil.  You don't need BP lubed bullets, or any lube with APP, but BP lube or any lube does no harm at all.  APP simply doesn't care about lube.

THIS!

[Dantankerous]

Just now, Silver Creek Jack said:

THIS!

 

While I agree with the physics I have to expend some 2000+ 200 grainers first.

 

 

[Stopsign32v]

Do you put the filler between the BP and the bullet? I've heard of this but never done it.

 

A full BP load under a 250gr slug is STOUT! No wonder people were missing back in shootouts.

[Dacotua]

I have used cream of wheat as a filler on top of black powder when I reduced loads. (It works)

I have used shotcard/lubed wad/shotcard then bullet on reduced black powder (It works)

 

If I have time, I'll use the wad method (the main reason is the extra lube from the wad helps greatly with fouling with the Bullets *I* use. I use a soft cast bullet that doesn't have a really lube ring, so the wad greatly improves reduction of fouling)

 

If I'm in a hurry, I use a filler and just deal with the fouling and have a more difficult time cleaning the guns later.

 

 

[Tom Bullweed]

On 7/16/2024 at 8:14 PM, Griff said:

Since yer using 'em in pistols... get yourself a 45 Auto roll crimp/seater die, buy some Cowboy 45 Special brass from Starline, 160 grain powder coated bullets, use the same powder charge and eliminate the extra step in using a filler.  

This^^^^^

[Uriah, SASS # 53822]

4 hours ago, German Jim said:

Diamondback is gone unless you know where to get some or have a large stash.

German Jim,

 

I had the misfortune of ordering in 25 pounds, thinking that it would be all right for the 45-70. Same for the KIK powder. I could get neither one of those to shoot.  The only things I use those powder for his practice offhand for my 45-70 hunting loads, 50 - 100yds, CAS, and shotguns.

 

Uriah

[Jackalope]

On 7/16/2024 at 9:21 AM, Dantankerous said:

with all the smoke and fire.

 

It's not my intention to hijack this thread, but...

 

I'm a long-time user of real black powder and admit to never having tried APP.  Some of the local shooters use it, but I've never witnessed APP produce any visible flame or fire or even sparks.  I believe you got it right with "all the smoke" but I dunno about the fire.  Am I mistaken?

[Scarlett]

34 minutes ago, Jackalope said:

 

It's not my intention to hijack this thread, but...

 

I'm a long-time user of real black powder and admit to never having tried APP.  Some of the local shooters use it, but I've never witnessed APP produce any visible flame or fire or even sparks.  I believe you got it right with "all the smoke" but I dunno about the fire.  Am I mistaken?

You are not mistaken. APP doesn’t produce flames like real black - though a video from a night shoot last year showed some from my shotgun! Lots of smoke, though! 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[Dantankerous]

1 hour ago, Jackalope said:

 

It's not my intention to hijack this thread, but...

 

I'm a long-time user of real black powder and admit to never having tried APP.  Some of the local shooters use it, but I've never witnessed APP produce any visible flame or fire or even sparks.  I believe you got it right with "all the smoke" but I dunno about the fire.  Am I mistaken?

You are correct. The smoke and fire is from BP. APP is pretty much smoke only.

 

When I stated APP loads yielded same results it was referring recoil, not fire. The smoke and fire comparison is only between full BP loads and BP/CoW stuffed loads.

 

Hope that clears it up.

 

 

 

Edited July 18 by Dantankerous

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

PLUS ONE for Scarlett "LOTS OF SMOKE" 

 

YOU BE AMAZED how easy it is to make the ubiquitous "Smoke Standard" with APP.  Even itty bitty 32s make smoke standard no sweat 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Recoil is supposed to be stout with 45 Colt loaded with Black Powder.

 

My loads are about 35 grains of Schuetzen FFg (2.2CC) under a 250 grain Big Lube bullet. I am not trying to shoot fast, just trying to hit all the targets.

 

 

 

 

 

Many years ago I tried putting some corn meal on top of the powder in my BP45 Colt loads, not worth the trouble.

 

 

 

 

Here is my standard 45 Colt Black Powder load.  Yes, it is a thumper, it is supposed to be.

 

 

 

 

 

You could try loading 45 Schofield with Black Powder. About 27 grains of Schuetzen FFg (1.9CC) under a 200 grain J/P 200 Big Lube bullet. I like this load in my cartridge conversion 1858 Remingtons because the trigger guard tends to womp my index finger when they are fired with my full house 45 Colt BP loads.

 

Edited July 20 by Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Everybody gets to play this game to their own preference and level.  To declare 45 Colt should only be shot with a full case loading and a heavy bullet is somewhat sanctimonious.  We are playing a game.  We are not "re-enacting" by any means.  Our forefathers were not standing on their hind feet running 60 - 65 rounds on a game day.  I doubt most ever fired 65 rounds "ever."

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting reduced loads with lighter bullets.  I have always been a card carrying dedicated "GAMER" and proud of it.  I like a nice reduced load, some Breakfast Food filler and a 130Gr Barnstormer bullet.  I'm not beating up my wrist every time I pull the trigger.  Trust Me

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

OK, call me sanctimonious.

 

As I said earlier, I am not trying to shoot fast, I am just trying to hit all the targets.

 

My goal at every SASS match is a clean match. I seldom finish a stage in less than a minute.

 

I march to a different drummer.

 

I do not care how slow I shoot, I just want to shoot  full Black Powder loads and have a clean match.

 

 

[Dacotua]

52 minutes ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

OK, call me sanctimonious.

 

As I said earlier, I am not trying to shoot fast, I am just trying to hit all the targets.

 

My goal at every SASS match is a clean match. I seldom finish a stage in less than a minute.

 

I march to a different drummer.

 

I do not care how slow I shoot, I just want to shoot  full Black Powder loads and have a clean match.

 

 

 

I shoot reduced loads, because of the ranges we shoot at. I try to minimize the amount of shrapnel that could come back at our fellow competitors.  I do this for my shotgun shells and my pistol/rifle cartridges. I too like to shoot a clean match however I prioritize safety more than anything else. I would never forgive myself if someone got hurt because of lead bounce back. Whenever at a match, if someone is shooting "full house loads", I generally get behind something because getting hit by any lead, even full house shotgun loads, isn't much fun.

 

I get what you are saying about shooting full house loads. I too like to shoot full house black powder loads from time to time, but I do that at my hunting lease or at a range at targets that are much further away than what we compete at at a CAS match. I have gone hunting with black powder in the past and it makes it more interesting.

 

I am not saying you are right or wrong, I'm just saying what *I* do.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

On 7/20/2024 at 5:55 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Everybody gets to play this game to their own preference and level.  To declare 45 Colt should only be shot with a full case loading and a heavy bullet is somewhat sanctimonious.  We are playing a game.  We are not "re-enacting" by any means.  Our forefathers were not standing on their hind feet running 60 - 65 rounds on a game day.  I doubt most ever fired 65 rounds "ever."

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting reduced loads with lighter bullets.  I have always been a card carrying dedicated "GAMER" and proud of it.  I like a nice reduced load, some Breakfast Food filler and a 130Gr Barnstormer bullet.  I'm not beating up my wrist every time I pull the trigger.  Trust Me

Don't forget, that even with good hearing protection these...I Do It My Way loads suck! Particularly when you're shooting in a covered stage.

 

Oh...I know...toughen up and all that horse****. 

 

Phantom

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Dacotua

 

I do applaud your concern for your fellow shooters.  HOWEVER:  Your loads have NOTHING TO DO with "bounce back."  Not velocity, not Lead Hardness nor shotgun loads are the cause of Bounce Back.  Bounce Back is PHYSICS.

 

Bounce Back is the result of Pi$$ Poor target design coupled with Pi$$ poor target stands.  Steel targets have to properly displayed to deflect shot DOWN.  Targets at right angles to the firing line WILL create bounce back regardless of velocity or shot composition.  Rebar target stands generate Bounce Back as well as target presentation.  Shotgun "Poppers" are the absolute WORST for Bounce Back.  Poppers are fun but very dangerous.

 

Most Forgot:  PLUS ONE for The Phantom you betcha

Edited July 29 by Colorado Coffinmaker
Collusion

[Idaho Gunslinger]

On 7/20/2024 at 12:09 PM, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

Recoil is supposed to be stout with 45 Colt loaded with Black Powder.

 

My loads are about 35 grains of Schuetzen FFg (2.2CC) under a 250 grain Big Lube bullet. I am not trying to shoot fast, just trying to hit all the targets.

 

 

 

 

 

Many years ago I tried putting some corn meal on top of the powder in my BP45 Colt loads, not worth the trouble.

 

 

 

 

Here is my standard 45 Colt Black Powder load.  Yes, it is a thumper, it is supposed to be.

 

 

 

 

 

You could try loading 45 Schofield with Black Powder. About 27 grains of Schuetzen FFg (1.9CC) under a 200 grain J/P 200 Big Lube bullet. I like this load in my cartridge conversion 1858 Remingtons because the trigger guard tends to womp my index finger when they are fired with my full house 45 Colt BP loads.

 

Depending on your gun and barrel length those might be real close to the max velocity limits set by SASS. I tested out 250gr bullets loaded with 27gr (by weight) of 777. This was a little over 1.9cc since 1.9cc didn't quite get me to the base of the bullet. These averaged 974fps from my 5.5" Vaqueros. 1249 fps from my 20" 1873. 

 

My target back there is about 17 yards if I remember right and the rifle toppled it pretty easily. My 200gr load with 30gr (by weight) of 777 toppled the target as well. It averaged 1405 fps from my rifle. 

 

[Erasmus]

The last time I shot black powder .45 colt was in a Josey Wales match. I wasn't sure what they were going to use for "shotgun" targets and was worried they might use knock down targets, so I loaded a .255 grain bullet over 2.0cc FFFg. I didn't get any complaints from my posse. While recoil was stout, I found it made it easier to hook my thumb up and over the hammer for the next shot (I was shooting dualist). My .38's were loaded with a 158 grain bullet and 1.0cc FFFg and the minimal recoil made it noticeably more difficult to get to the hammer. 

 

I guess I need longer thumbs, or I can lower the hammer. 

 

At any rate, the next time I shoot the .45 with black I'll likely load less than 2.0cc and use card wads for filler. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

Depending on your gun and barrel length those might be real close to the max velocity limits set by SASS. I tested out 250gr bullets loaded with 27gr (by weight) of 777. This was a little over 1.9cc since 1.9cc didn't quite get me to the base of the bullet. These averaged 974fps from my 5.5" Vaqueros. 1249 fps from my 20" 1873. 

 

My target back there is about 17 yards if I remember right and the rifle toppled it pretty easily. My 200gr load with 30gr (by weight) of 777 toppled the target as well. It averaged 1405 fps from my rifle. 

 

I take it those rounds are from something other than CAS...??

 

Phantom

12 minutes ago, Erasmus said:

I didn't get any complaints from my posse.

Uhhh...not to your face...

 

Phantom

[Idaho Gunslinger]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I take it those rounds are from something other than CAS...??

 

Phantom

Trying out the unofficial category of "Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation". 250gr bullets with powder (real black or 777 only) loaded to at least the base of the bullet (about 27-30gr of powder by volume). The category is shot in Duelist only. I bought some real black to try to see if the recoil is less than 777. 

 

On top of that I shoot gunfighter. I'm not sure I want to try duelist and mess up my rhythm I have for gunfighter. The unofficial category for gunfighter is lumped together with 2 handed and called the "King/Queen of Kaboom". You are allowed to drop down to a 200gr bullet and 25gr of powder (by volume) which coincidentally meets the criteria for Pale Rider Jedi Gunfighter so I assume there is some kind of significance to a 200gr bullet with 25gr of BP. I also assume this will need some filler added to it to remove airspace though there is some debate on this. 

 

I did a post with some questions about it while you were on your latest hiatus. 

 

[McCandless]

I sold off all my 45 Colt cases.  After I used up all my BP I went completely to APP.  This way I can use the same bullets as I use for smokeless.  No more messing with BP lube.   For rifle, I use 45 S&W Schofield cases and a 200gr bullet.   That length works well in toggle-link rifles and Marlins.  For pistols, I use Cowboy 45 Special cases and a 160gr bullet.   With these cases, no filler is needed.

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

Trying out the unofficial category of "Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation". 250gr bullets with powder (real black or 777 only) loaded to at least the base of the bullet (about 27-30gr of powder by volume). The category is shot in Duelist only. I bought some real black to try to see if the recoil is less than 777. 

 

On top of that I shoot gunfighter. I'm not sure I want to try duelist and mess up my rhythm I have for gunfighter. The unofficial category for gunfighter is lumped together with 2 handed and called the "King/Queen of Kaboom". You are allowed to drop down to a 200gr bullet and 25gr of powder (by volume) which coincidentally meets the criteria for Pale Rider Jedi Gunfighter so I assume there is some kind of significance to a 200gr bullet with 25gr of BP. I also assume this will need some filler added to it to remove airspace though there is some debate on this. 

 

I did a post with some questions about it while you were on your latest hiatus. 

 

All fun & games until you're the one forkin' out cash to buy new targets, or spending days welding up divots & refacing targets, straightening/rebuilding stands, etc

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

8 hours ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

Depending on your gun and barrel length those might be real close to the max velocity limits set by SASS. I tested out 250gr bullets loaded with 27gr (by weight) of 777. This was a little over 1.9cc since 1.9cc didn't quite get me to the base of the bullet. These averaged 974fps from my 5.5" Vaqueros. 1249 fps from my 20" 1873. 

 

My target back there is about 17 yards if I remember right and the rifle toppled it pretty easily. My 200gr load with 30gr (by weight) of 777 toppled the target as well. It averaged 1405 fps from my rifle. 

 

 

It was a long time ago that I ran my loads past a chronograph, but my loading notebook says my 45 Colt loads, with 2.2CC (about 35 grains) of Schuetzen FFg and a 250 grain bullet were doing between 700 fps and 712 fps out of the 7 1/2" barrel of one of my Colts. My 44-40 BP loads with 2.2CC (about 31.3 grains) of Goex FFg and a 200 grain bullet, were averaging around 1015 FPS out of the 24" barrel of my Uberti 1873. No where near the SASS max velocity of 1000 fps for revolvers and 1400 fps for rifles. The Goex loads were shot a long, long time ago, as I do not buy Goex anymore. But those are the velocities my reloading notebook says.

 

Regarding damaging targets, my soft lead bullets do not damage targets. I have been doing this a long time, and I would know if my loads were damaging targets.

[Sedalia Dave]

3 hours ago, Griff said:

All fun & games until you're the one forkin' out cash to buy new targets, or spending days welding up divots & refacing targets, straightening/rebuilding stands, etc

 

The clubs that offer these special categories are fully aware the possibility of target damage and have taken the necessary steps to prevent it. AR-500 steel will easily stand up to these loads.

 

I had some old 10-X 44-40 Black Powder rounds that I bought from a shooter that had to hang up his guns. No idea what powder 10-X used, but those rounds out of my 24" 1860 Henry would damage mild steel at 7 to 10 yards. I did some experimentation and the issue was not the velocity but in the ultra hard cast bullets that 10-X used. They were way harder than Lyman #2 alloy. 

 

JMNSHO but more targets are damaged because the bullet alloy is way too hard than by velocity alone.

[Griff]

6 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

JMNSHO but more targets are damaged because the bullet alloy is way too hard than by velocity alone.

Agreed.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

11 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

Regarding damaging targets, my soft lead bullets do not damage targets. I have been doing this a long time, and I would know if my loads were damaging targets.

Maybe not your targets...

 

Do you know that it's the heat generated from the impact that causes damage?

 

Phantom