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Fordyce Beals

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A fast shooter shot the 10-10-4 stage then showed up at the unloading table with an unfired round in one revolver, not under the hammer.  My initial reaction was that he must have shot a different order round count than the stage instructions called for, I was counting but did not notice the 9-round engagement.  I wanted to call a procedural violation but went to the miss flow chart and shooters handbook and found this:

Leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a Miss penalty. However, if a live round is under the hammer, a Stage Disqualification penalty is assessed.

Double Jeopardy applies- a miss cannot cause a procedural. To help understand this concept, please reference the Miss Flow Chart in Section 7 of this handbook.

The miss flow charts say, “Were the targets hit in the correct order except for misses?” If “yes “ “No further call”

So, since an unfired round is a Miss penalty it must be a miss and no further call,  but then I read:

Procedural (P) infractions include: - Failure to attempt to fire a firearm, engage a prop, or perform a stage maneuver.

An unfired round can be considered as a “Failure to attempt to fire a firearm,” for the tenth round so now I am back to my original feeling to call a procedural.

No procedural was called on the shooters score.

 

Fordyce

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While a miss cannot cause a P, failing to engage the target does. In this case the unfired round did not miss the target it was never fired or attempted to be fired.

The Miss is awarded for not shooting the required number of rounds. 

The P is awarded for failing to complete the target sequence per stage instructions.   The only exception I can see is if the unfired round had a dent in the primer. This would provide proof of engagement and eliminate the P. No dent, no proof of engagement so the shooter earns a P. 

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33 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

While a miss cannot cause a P, failing to engage the target does. In this case the unfired round did not miss the target it was never fired or attempted to be fired.

The Miss is awarded for not shooting the required number of rounds. 

The P is awarded for failing to complete the target sequence per stage instructions.   The only exception I can see is if the unfired round had a dent in the primer. This would provide proof of engagement and eliminate the P. No dent, no proof of engagement so the shooter earns a P. 

I have to disagree. The pistol may have failed to lock up and the firing pin may have hit the back of the cylinder. Could have been slip hammering and didn't pull the hammer back fully. 

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If three spotters did not notice only nine rounds being fired, and no one "SAW" a procedural - one miss for the unfired round.

 

Then, offline, try to figure out how everyone missed the unfired round...

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I had this exact thing happen to me at our state match two weeks ago. I shot it quick enough that the TO couldn’t keep up with counting (if they even were) and I get to the unloading table and had one in my pistol, but not under the hammer. It was a miss and only a miss. Posse marshal was asked for clarification and indicated that it was only a miss. His exact words “a miss cannot cause a P”. 
 

Although I can see the theory with the other calls. 

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An unfired round is not the same as a miss of a fired round, but is simply SCORED as a miss.

Example: 5 target double tap sweep.

Shooter shoots 2 on t1, 1 on t2, 1 on t3 then holsters. Pulls second pistol shoots 1 on t3, 2 on t4 and 2 on t5.

Goes to unloading table and discovers round in pistol 1.

Should be SCORED as 1 MISS for UNFIRED round and a "P" for only 1 shot on T2.

 

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It depends...did the shooter finish on the correct target...if there was one??

 

Comparing to a jacked out rifle round is not a good comparison. With a jacked out round we know that the firearm was cycled.

 

Phantom

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Could even have happened if the shooter loads 6 rounds in the cylinder, and fired all required rounds.

 

Trust what your spotters called for any misses or skipped targets in the string's order, and what your RO called for did not fire enough rounds.    THAT is the truth as far as SASS scoring is concerned.

 

If they all said, 10 hits and 10 shots fired, then you probably have a 6 round cylinder load.  Did you count empty brass from that revolver?  Were there 4 or 5 fired cases?

 

good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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4 hours ago, Fordyce Beals said:

Procedural (P) infractions include: - Failure to attempt to fire a firearm, engage a prop, or perform a stage maneuver.

An unfired round can be considered as a “Failure to attempt to fire a firearm,” for the tenth round

No, it can't...other rounds in that firearm were fired.

so now I am back to my original feeling to call a procedural.

No procedural was called on the shooters score.

 

 

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In Beartrap's example, the shooter only fired 4 of the 5 rounds in the 1st revolver.

Last hammer drop fired the 4th round...hammer is down on the fired case.

Shooter gets the MISS for the remaining unfired 5th round

+

the "P" for failure to DT t2 as soon as the 4th shot hit t3.

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6 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

In Beartrap's example, the shooter only fired 4 of the 5 rounds in the 1st revolver.

Last hammer drop fired the 4th round...hammer is down on the fired case.

Shooter gets the MISS for the remaining unfired 5th round

+

the "P" for failure to DT t2 as soon as the 4th shot hit t3.

If the neither the TO nor the Spotters called a "Procedural" on the firing line, then there was no Procedural.  The only call the ULT Officer can make is to inform the TO that an unfired round was found in a pistol (as long as there were only 5).  It's then up to the TO to inform the Scorekeeper to adjust the Shooter's score for an additional 5 seconds for the unfired round.  

Edited by Griff
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19 minutes ago, Griff said:

If the neither the TO nor the Spotters called a "Procedural" on the firing line, then there was no Procedural.  The only call the ULT Officer can make is to inform the TO that an unfired round was found in a pistol (as long as there were only 5).  It's then up to the TO to inform the Scorekeeper to adjust the Shooter's score for an additional 5 seconds for the unfired round. 

 

In the example cited, the poster stated that the shooter only fired one round on t2 before moving to t3.
Apparently someone saw that "P" (he didn't say who) which resulted in the unfired round in the first revolver.
It's up to the TO to determine WHY that 5th round was unfired and make the correct call.

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8 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

In the example cited, the poster stated that the shooter only fired one round on t2 before moving to t3.
Apparently someone saw that "P" (he didn't say who) which resulted in the unfired round in the first revolver.
It's up to the TO to determine WHY that 5th round was unfired and make the correct call.

Beartrap is not the OP and nothing has been said that he is referencing the OPs scenario.  I agree with your assessment of Beartraps scenario.

 

In the OPs scenario - no one noticed only 9 rounds being fired and no one saw a procedural.

 

OP only wanted to call a procedural because an unfired round was discovered in a revolver at the unloading table.

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People seem to think that it was the fifth round in the revolver that was unfired.  How do we know that?  In the OP it was stated that there was an unfired round in the revolver.  Which one was it?  If it was the third or fourth round that was unfired then it would have been a round that was for target number two.  Why was it unfired?  Who knows.  Shooter could have short stroked the revolver, a light firing pin hit or any number of other reasons.  Obviously, the shooter was quite fast that no one noticed only four fired rounds from the revolver.  Unless we know exactly for sure which round it was then the benefit of the doubt should go to the shooter and I would call a miss for the unfired round but no "P".   Brushy.

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42 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

Beartrap is not the OP and nothing has been said that he is referencing the OPs scenario.  I agree with your assessment of Beartraps scenario.

 

In the OPs scenario - no one noticed only 9 rounds being fired and no one saw a procedural.

 

OP only wanted to call a procedural because an unfired round was discovered in a revolver at the unloading table.

 

The OP wanted to call a procedural based on a misunderstanding of the "Failure to attempt to fire a firearm..." penalty.

I've already addressed that.

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8 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

The OP wanted to call a procedural based on a misunderstanding of the "Failure to attempt to fire a firearm..." penalty.

I've already addressed that.


So for clarification. It’s up to the TO to determine why the unfired round is there and to make the appropriate call? Obviously if the targets were hit in the wrong order or wrong number of rounds it’s a P.
 

The thing I’m not comprehending is if the shooter just forgot to shoot the last round and it’s not under the hammer, therefore safe to leave the hand(s), and the TO or spotters lost count as well is the call only a miss? Or does it accrue a P for not attempting to engage the target? Let’s just say for simple thinking it’s a progressive sweep and the shooter is just too fast and didn’t place the last round on target 4. 

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Just to clarify my earlier post I was attempting to show that while the flow chart states that a miss cannot cause a procedural penalty, an unfired round (which is SCORED as a miss) can indeed cause a procedural penalty.

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Normally I would say this would be scored as a miss only. However, PWs comments have me thinking that any time an unfired round in a revolver at the unloading table would always be a miss AND a Procedural. Because you know for certain that a target did not get the required number of rounds fired at it, not missed, unfired and none of the spotters or TO caught it during the stage. Am I following this correctly?

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51 minutes ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

Just to clarify my earlier post I was attempting to show that while the flow chart states that a miss cannot cause a procedural penalty, an unfired round (which is SCORED as a miss) can indeed cause a procedural penalty.

 

In your example, the "unfired round" did NOT cause a "P"...the procedural was for " Shooting targets in the wrong order" (REF: SHB p.21)

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1 minute ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

In your example, the "unfired round" did NOT cause a "P"...the procedural was for " Shooting targets in the wrong order" (REF: SHB p.21)

I ain't very good at 'splainin am I?:)

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The "Double Jeopardy" rule primarily applies to a miss for "Each target hit with an incorrect firearm – either intentionally or by mistake."
That is why the "Miss Flow Chart" references "the correct type of targets"...

 

There are still a few ignorant TOs who insist on assessing a miss + a "P" for a shooter missing a revolver target and hitting a rifle target with the same shot. :rolleyes:

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39 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

Normally I would say this would be scored as a miss only. However, PWs comments have me thinking that any time an unfired round in a revolver at the unloading table would always be a miss AND a Procedural. Because you know for certain that a target did not get the required number of rounds fired at it, not missed, unfired and none of the spotters or TO caught it during the stage. Am I following this correctly?

 

Not necessarily.
If the shooter
ENGAGED (REF: SHB p.43) the targets in the correct order but for some reason a round was not FIRED (bad primer, over-indexing,, etc.)...

that would NOT be a "P" for "Shooting the targets in the wrong order"....another example of "a miss cannot cause a procedural".

 

All of these examples illustrate the importance of having competent and observant Timer Operators and Spotters performing their assigned duties properly.
 

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AND the importance of an ULT RO. If a shooter is unloading and a live round drops out, who knows if it was under the hammer or not?

And unless the brass is counted, you will not know if 5 or 6 rounds were loaded initially.

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1 hour ago, Ranger Dan said:

Normally I would say this would be scored as a miss only. However, PWs comments have me thinking that any time an unfired round in a revolver at the unloading table would always be a miss AND a Procedural. Because you know for certain that a target did not get the required number of rounds fired at it, not missed, unfired and none of the spotters or TO caught it during the stage. Am I following this correctly?

This is my original thought:  you know for certain that a target did not get the required number of rounds fired at it.

 

30 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Not necessarily.
If the shooter
ENGAGED (REF: SHB p.43) the targets in the correct order but for some reason a round was not FIRED (bad primer, over-indexing,, etc.)...

that would NOT be a "P" for "Shooting the targets in the wrong order"....another example of "a miss cannot cause a procedural".

 

All of these examples illustrate the importance of having competent and observant Timer Operators and Spotters performing their assigned duties properly.
 

Pale Wolf points out that while it could be a P it may not be a P and I am back to the original dilemma that I can not count fast enough if the total stage time in this case was 12 seconds. Not being able to comprehend the possible engaged target engaged I make no call.

 

Fordyce

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My original post was in reference to the original thread by Fordyce Beals.   I see no target sequence mentioned.

 

Where did the actual targets engagement come from that makes the original infraction become a Miss and a 'P'?

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Not necessarily.
If the shooter
ENGAGED (REF: SHB p.43) the targets in the correct order but for some reason a round was not FIRED (bad primer, over-indexing,, etc.)...

that would NOT be a "P" for "Shooting the targets in the wrong order"....another example of "a miss cannot cause a procedural".

 

All of these examples illustrate the importance of having competent and observant Timer Operators and Spotters performing their assigned duties properly.
 

Unfortunately, most of our shooters are elderly and can't stand or follow the shooter. I've seen spotters digress immensely over the past couple years. 

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8 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Unfortunately, most of our shooters are elderly and can't stand or follow the shooter. I've seen spotters digress immensely over the past couple years. 

I man the unload table because I can’t be a reliable spotter anymore, I can’t keep up with the fast shooters and me being a spotter isn’t fair to the shooter or the other shooters.

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12 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

I man the unload table because I can’t be a reliable spotter anymore, I can’t keep up with the fast shooters and me being a spotter isn’t fair to the shooter or the other shooters.

 

YUL,

sometimes it ain't a spotters fault.   Seems some of the problems come from folks not knowing the rules or misinterpreting them.

 

You are correct in that some shooters are hard to spot for, depending up certain scenarios and if they are a super fast traditionalist

or very good GF.

 

The Wire, and PWB, are a great place to help us all understand things better and fairly.

 

..........Widder

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BWJ, thanks for the explanation, great video. I know this is hypothetical but what if the pistol with the unfired round is staged instead of holstered?

As in the video, shooter fails to fire 5th round and grounds his first pistol then fires his second pistol; is there a safety penalty for the unfired round left in the pistol as it was grounded instead of returned to leather? Thanks.

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8 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

I know this is hypothetical but what if the pistol with the unfired round is staged instead of holstered?

As in the video, shooter fails to fire 5th round and grounds his first pistol then fires his second pistol; is there a safety penalty for the unfired round left in the pistol as it was grounded instead of returned to leather?

 

 

 

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