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Is this Leading? H110 under 158 gn Hornady LSWCHP


Mad Major

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I don't have a photo  to show the problem yet, but I am pretty sure I have leading in my Pietta Great Western II.  

 

I loaded up some .357 magnum cases for my Pietta GW II with 15.2 grains of H110 with 158 gn Hornady Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point bullets.  I saw a forum from 2015 where several shooters were saying 15.0 to 15.5 grains of H110 under a 158 gn to 180 gn lead bullet was their goto load, despite Hodgdon's advice against it.  I figured I would give it a try and this past weekend I loaded up about 60 rounds with 15.2 grains of H110 under the Hornady LSWCHP's.  I shot them from my Rossi R92 and my Pietta.  Horrible accuracy from both.  First off, they shot waayyyy high from point of aim.  Once I got the elevation corrected, at 25 yards the groupings were 10" at best.  At 100 yards from the rifle, my groups (when they actually hit the target) were 20"  at best.  I am not that bad of a marskman.  I always qualify expert with my M4 and my M9 in the Army.

 

This morning I was cleaning my Pietta GW II and noticed some shiny silver metal flakes at the muzzle.  My first thought was "Holly crap, I have ruined the chrome lining with those damn h110 bullets".  Then my second thought was, "wait a minute, I don't think Pietta lines their pistol bores with chrome, is this the dreaded leading problem I have heard of?"

 

So here a few questions for those of you with more reloading and CAS experience than me cause I am still a greenhorn:
 

1. Does this sound like leading?

2. Does Pietta chrome line their pistol bores?  I can't find any documentation that says they do, and although my bore was very shiny when new, I don't think it was chrome.  But it was very shiny.

3. If they do line their bores with chrome, can hot burning powder ruin the chrome lining?

4. If it is leading, what's the best way to get the lead out?(pun intended)

5. Assuming the problem is the hot-burning H110, Is there any use at all for H110 in CAS Shooting?

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41 minutes ago, Mad Major said:

1. Does this sound like leading? Yes

2. Does Pietta chrome line their pistol bores?  I can't find any documentation that says they do, and although my bore was very shiny when new, I don't think it was chrome.  But it was very shiny. No

3. If they do line their bores with chrome, can hot burning powder ruin the chrome lining? No, no

4. If it is leading, what's the best way to get the lead out?(pun intended) Lewis lead remover and/or good solvent and a lot of elbow grease

5. Assuming the problem is the hot-burning H110, Is there any use at all for H110 in CAS Shooting? No.  H110 is way to slow for Cowboy loads.

 

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53 minutes ago, Mad Major said:

15.2 grains of H110 with 158 gn Hornady Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point bullets.

I would make a pretty big bet that it's leading.

 

10 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

what's the best way to get the lead out?

Brass Curly Kate, Lewis lead remover, etc.

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Thanks for the responses guys.  I am glad its just leading and I have not ruined my favorite revolver.  I ain't one to brag, but this dang gun will drive tacks out to 25yds.  I have even hit large jugs at 100yds with it.  Thanks again.  I'll order me some Lewis lead remover.

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A little while back those kits were out of stock at all the major distributors (O.O.S. at Brownells now, only place I checked).  A homemade method I've used before is to take some strands of a copper scouring pad and wrap them around a brass or bronze bore brush.  But you must make sure it is pure copper and not copper plated steel.  Don't know if they even make all-copper pads any more.

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18 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OP, you are in .357 Magnum pressure range,  with that load......  :o

You really need to do some load data searching!

 

yes, I was tracking its a full power load.  I was wanting to use the Hornady LSWCHP bullet for full power hunting or self defense cause it is cheaper than the XTP.

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20 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

A little while back those kits were out of stock at all the major distributors (O.O.S. at Brownells now, only place I checked).  A homemade method I've used before is to take some strands of a copper scouring pad and wrap them around a brass or bronze bore brush.  But you must make sure it is pure copper and not copper plated steel.  Don't know if they even make all-copper pads any more.

Yup, I can't find it anywhere except ebay, and that is without the box.  I might go the homemade route.  I don't necessarily trust ebay.

 

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If I get just a normal 100% copper cleaning pad and wrap it around a bore brush, do I need solvent too?  Which solvent have you guys used that provides the best results?

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14 minutes ago, Mad Major said:

yes, I was tracking its a full power load.  I was wanting to use the Hornady LSWCHP bullet for full power hunting or self defense cause it is cheaper than the XTP.

Don't use reloads for SD

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1 hour ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

make sure it is pure copper and not copper plated steel

Even the steel scouring pads are much softer than the gun barrel.   Pure copper strands are good, brass strands are even better (IMO).

1 hour ago, Mad Major said:

do I need solvent too?

The scouring pad strands wrapped on a cleaning brush cut the lead better if everything is dry, in my experience.  Scrape the lead out, then use solvent & gun oil.

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The Lewis Lead Remover is great for building pecs. I used to have to hold it behind my head to get enough muscle to pull it through the leaded barrel. Do that a few times and you’ll learn why you don’t want to lead a barrel. 

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Shooting cast lead at those pressures and velocities is going to cause leading unless;

 

1.  You have bullets that are the correct hardness.

2. The bullets are properly sized for your barrel

3. You are using a bullet lube that will stand up to those pressures. 

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If your making up "Hunting type" loads, why not use jacketed bullets?  Near maximum loads for .357 are going to lead with just about any hardness of lead and/or lube.  I'm pretty sure your accuracy issues are indeed due to leading of the barrel and forcing cone from shooting these loads and it's not going to be easy to clean up after.  Personally, I'd be rather cautious about shooting really hot loads from your Pietta Great Western anyway.  Italian guns, especially replicas, are well known not to hold up well shooting maximum loads, but it's your gun and your choice.  Good luck and good shooting to all.  

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If I understand correctly, the Hornady bullets are swaged not cast. They are soft without any Tin in them. These are LOW pressure bullets only. I have heard they are either 98/2 or 96/4 lead/antimony alloy. They are coated with a dry lube not a lube groove like a cast bullet.

To use a lead alloy bullet with H-110 mag. velocities you would need at least a 2% tin and a mim. of 4% antimony alloy and a correct fit to not have leading. Correct sizing of the alloy bullet to the specific gun being used is 98% of the battle. If and I say if the bullet fits the gun and all surfaces are smooth even a softer alloy than I referenced might work, but would have to have some Tin in the alloy. The above statements are my personal opinion based on my experience.

As far as removing the leading, the pure copper "chore boy" strands wrapped around a bore brush is the quickest way I have found. 

Your last question about H-110 being useful in CAS, my answer is NO for main match use. Maybe in long range side match's but I can think of much better choices for that also.

The short answer to your problem is you overpowered a very soft bullet without a decent lube on it. There is a place for those bullets in CAS, just much, much slower velocity. 

T Bone 

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If you can't find copper scouring pads, go to a full-line hardware store and buy some 00 (or so) bronze wool.  It will look about like steel wool, but it is yellow/brown in color.   Perfectly safe in for scrubbing any steel - even removing rust from a blued gun when used with a good rust-breaking oil like Kroil or PB Blaster.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

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15 hours ago, Mad Major said:

yes, I was tracking its a full power load.  I was wanting to use the Hornady LSWCHP bullet for full power hunting or self defense cause it is cheaper than the XTP.

 

Needless to say, but you've probably spent more time and money on all the stuff to remove lead buildup on your revolver

then you would have spent on a box of some really good jacketed hunting bullets, or even some gas checked,

hard cast bullets for hunting.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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I use LaserCast bullets when loading 357 mag rounds with H110. They are hard, don’t lead and are quite accurate in my Rossi.  I would not use these loads for self-defense as they are likely to over penetrate.  BTW, 125-grain jacketed hollow point bullets in a 357 have a good reputation as a self-defense round.

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 I suggest a good reloading book and READ IT.

 

Best Wishes

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22 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

A little while back those kits were out of stock at all the major distributors (O.O.S. at Brownells now, only place I checked).  A homemade method I've used before is to take some strands of a copper scouring pad and wrap them around a brass or bronze bore brush.  But you must make sure it is pure copper and not copper plated steel.  Don't know if they even make all-copper pads any more.

Take a magnet with you to the store! Can check online as well. Works pretty good.

Edited by Eyesa Horg
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So this morning before my duty shift, I went to Cabelas and got some hoppes #9, some .40 bore brushes, and some cotton patches.  I got one of the steel coil looking bore brushes too.  I dipped a swab tip in the hoppes and then soaked the bore.  After about 15 min I started with the bore brushes going all the way through the forcing cone, and then back out(cylinder removed of course).  WOW.  I had no idea there was that much lead in there.  I worked on it for about 15 min and decided to soak it again.  I let it soak for an hour, and again brushed it.  That got most of it out, but there is some still left in there.  I will do some more work on it when I get home tonight.  I was pretty impressed with the Hoppes #9.  I had used it since I was a kid, but my dad always said you don't need it for daily cleaning.  

 

So at this point I am thinking about prevention now. 

Will CFE Pistol prevent leading?  I know it is supposed to prevent copper fouling, but has anybody used it with good success to prevent leading?  

 

Also, My Lee reloading manual has several loads in it for .38spc, .38spc +P, and .357 mag.  I was using Rim Rock Bullets 158gn Lead Round Nose Flat point with 3.4 to 3.6 gns of HP38 before I decided to experiment with H110 and Hornady's LSWCHP.  My Lee reloading manual has that load listed with 3.4 being the starting load, and Hodgdon's website also has it listed as a CAS load.  According to Rim Rock Bullets website, these are made with "just the right amount of tin and antimony."  I figured they should be good since they call the LRNFP one of their their "cowboy cast lead" bullets.  I am getting very good results and accuracy, or I was, with them.

 

I loaded up some 158gn LSWC's from Rim Rock as well.  Pretty good accuracy, but not as good as  the LRNFP.  I used the same amount of HP38, 3.4 to 3.6 grains.  I say 3.4 to 3.6 cause I set my reloading drum at 3.5 just to be sure I had 3.4 due to variation.

 

I also got some of their 125 gn TC lead bullets as a sample.  They seem ok, but not as accurate as the LRNFP's were.  I think my Lee book said 4.6 grains of HP38 for those, and I am pretty sure thats what Hodgdon's site calls the CAS load too.  I cant remember off the top of my head what I loaded them too, but it was whatever the book said to use.

 

Of the bullets I listed above, has anybody tried these same bullets or similar bullets with CFE Pistol? CFE is only 5 bucks more than HP38, but if it will help with preventing lead fouling I think it is worth it.  Thoughts?

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39 minutes ago, Mad Major said:

So this morning before my duty shift, I went to Cabelas and got some hoppes #9, some .40 bore brushes, and some cotton patches.  I got one of the steel coil looking bore brushes too.  I dipped a swab tip in the hoppes and then soaked the bore.  After about 15 min I started with the bore brushes going all the way through the forcing cone, and then back out(cylinder removed of course).  WOW.  I had no idea there was that much lead in there.  I worked on it for about 15 min and decided to soak it again.  I let it soak for an hour, and again brushed it.  That got most of it out, but there is some still left in there.  I will do some more work on it when I get home tonight.  I was pretty impressed with the Hoppes #9.  I had used it since I was a kid, but my dad always said you don't need it for daily cleaning.  

 

So at this point I am thinking about prevention now. 

Will CFE Pistol prevent leading?  I know it is supposed to prevent copper fouling, but has anybody used it with good success to prevent leading?  

 

Also, My Lee reloading manual has several loads in it for .38spc, .38spc +P, and .357 mag.  I was using Rim Rock Bullets 158gn Lead Round Nose Flat point with 3.4 to 3.6 gns of HP38 before I decided to experiment with H110 and Hornady's LSWCHP.  My Lee reloading manual has that load listed with 3.4 being the starting load, and Hodgdon's website also has it listed as a CAS load.  According to Rim Rock Bullets website, these are made with "just the right amount of tin and antimony."  I figured they should be good since they call the LRNFP one of their their "cowboy cast lead" bullets.  I am getting very good results and accuracy, or I was, with them.

 

I loaded up some 158gn LSWC's from Rim Rock as well.  Pretty good accuracy, but not as good as  the LRNFP.  I used the same amount of HP38, 3.4 to 3.6 grains.  I say 3.4 to 3.6 cause I set my reloading drum at 3.5 just to be sure I had 3.4 due to variation.

 

I also got some of their 125 gn TC lead bullets as a sample.  They seem ok, but not as accurate as the LRNFP's were.  I think my Lee book said 4.6 grains of HP38 for those, and I am pretty sure thats what Hodgdon's site calls the CAS load too.  I cant remember off the top of my head what I loaded them too, but it was whatever the book said to use.

 

Of the bullets I listed above, has anybody tried these same bullets or similar bullets with CFE Pistol? CFE is only 5 bucks more than HP38, but if it will help with preventing lead fouling I think it is worth it.  Thoughts?

 

Copper fouling and leading are two different animals with entirely different causes. There is no magic gun powder that will prevent leading.

 

Leading is caused by the gasses propelling the bullet down the barrel escaping between the bullet and barrel. This is called gas cutting.

Once some lead gets deposited in your barrel it will strip more lead from each additional bullet fired down the barrel. Even if there is no gas cutting on these successive shots.

 

First way to prevent gas cutting is by ensuring your cast bullets are 0.0005 to 0.0015 larger in diameter than the groove diameter of your barrel.

 

Second the bullet hardness has to be matched to the pressures your chosen load produces.  You can usually get away with shooting a bullet that is too hard if it is properly sized for your barrel. If the bullet is too soft and the pressures too high the hot gasses will force their way past the bullet (gas cutting) and will result in barrel leading.

 

Thirdly the chosen bullet lube has to be of the correct viscosity to help seal the minor imperfections between the bullet and the barrel and prevent gas cutting. However if the lube is too hard it will not be forced into the gaps between the bullet and barrel. Too soft and the high pressures will push past it and cause gas cutting.

 

Powder coated bullets work because the coating acts like the lube on non-coated bullets. However if your chamber pressures are too high or the bullet is too small for your barrel you can still get leading.

 

Most CAST bullets marketed to CAS shooters are of moderate hardness and are sized to ensure a proper fit for 99.9% of all the barrels out there. Because we shoot mild loads they work extremely well. However it they are loaded to magnum pressures leading will result.

 

The Hornady swaged bullets are pretty soft. They have to be or they couldn't be formed without cracking. They will only work with low pressure loads.

 

A good introduction to cast bullets is "From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners"

 

 

Edited by Sedalia Dave
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30 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

A good introduction to cast bullets is "From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners"

 

Thanks for the link Dave!  Wow, thats 182 pages.  Looks like I am going back to school....

 

11 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Black Powder!

 

Is that a joke, or does black powder really not cause leading?  I kind of like the nostalgia of black powder.

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1 hour ago, Mad Major said:

Is that a joke, or does black powder really not cause leading?  I kind of like the nostalgia of black powder.

 

Unless your bullet is undersized, BP will not cause leading.  You do have to make sure you are using a BP compatible lube.

 

If you use APP or Shooters World Black you don't need lube so you can use Powder Coated Bullets with no issues.

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Black powder sounds better all the time...

 

I think i have most all the lead out now.  How does this look?  I know the pictures are not very helpful, but i can distinctly see the rifling grooves again and the bore is shiny again:

20240613_110736.jpg

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1 hour ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Switching to HiTek coated bullets stopped leading in one of my rifles.  Might try them.

 

Is that the Badman Bullets I ran across on the internet?

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