An unusual stage direction.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

 

This is entirely theoretical.

 

On one stage over the course of the match, you encounter the following...

 

There is one pistol target, but it's smaller than normal, and a bit farther out than normal.   Perhaps it's out at typical rifle distance and maybe one half to three quarters the typical size.   Stage directions tell you to hit the target 5 times total.   Reloading as needed after shooting both pistols to empty.

In other words the target should be of a size and distance that it's possible to hit it five times with the first pistol, but understandable if you need both, or more, to do it.

Not sure what the rules would require you to do with unused rounds.   Dump 'em?  Since hammer would be down on an empty chamber/spent round, don't worry about it?   

I think it could make for an unusual variation every once in a great while.   Wouldn't wanna see it more than once in a match, and prolly not in every match, but I think it might be interesting to give this a try.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Set up a dump target to fire any unfired rounds..

Saves having to worry about new shooters..

Edited June 9 by Rance - SASS # 54090

[Griff]

While the target shooter in me would be happy to have such a stage, I imagine most would rail against such. As Rance said while I was editing my post, a fairly large dump target at a normal CAS distance would suffice.

 

I did a much similar thing in a Plainsman match several years ago.  I put a less than 1/4 size "running bear" target at ~25 paces, and the instruction to hit the rifle target one time before proceeding to the pistol & shotgun.  Being that Plainsman uses a single shot rifle, it is of no consequence whether you hit it on the first shot or the 5th from a safety standpoint.

 

The target I have has about a 12"h x 14"w main body, with three ~3"h "L" shaped legs protruding from said body, with about a 6"x6" head... so if one ignores the legs and head, it's still a pretty easy target, but if you don't... the gaps between the body & legs will easily absorb misses!

[Texas Maverick]

1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

This is entirely theoretical.

 

On one stage over the course of the match, you encounter the following...

 

There is one pistol target, but it's smaller than normal, and a bit farther out than normal.   Perhaps it's out at typical rifle distance and maybe one half to three quarters the typical size.   Stage directions tell you to hit the target 5 times total.   Reloading as needed after shooting both pistols to empty.

In other words the target should be of a size and distance that it's possible to hit it five times with the first pistol, but understandable if you need both, or more, to do it.

Not sure what the rules would require you to do with unused rounds.   Dump 'em?  Since hammer would be down on an empty chamber/spent round, don't worry about it?   

I think it could make for an unusual variation every once in a great while.   Wouldn't wanna see it more than once in a match, and prolly not in every match, but I think it might be interesting to give this a try.

This part would be an issue. It looks like you want them to reload their pistols after shooting 10 rounds and not hitting it 5 times out on the stage?

 

TM

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy HK & Others,

 

Having a dump plate solves and safety concerns. If the shooter can't make 5 hits with 10 shots, just score the misses and have him move on. I'm sure there would be some complaints, but I think it would make an interesting stage. Like the Texas star, folks would either love is or hate it.

 

Rev. Chase

[John Kloehr]

Dump target or safely into the berm for unfired rounds, that is my quick response..

 

But I understand the emphasis of Cowboy Action Shooting is on Action.

 

Don't make it so difficult as to lead a shooter to risk an SOG for abandoning the effort.

 

Hypothetically  (way too small a target way too far away), having perhaps hit 4 targets with the 1st 10 rounds, looking at 3 reloads of both pistols plus disposing of unfired rounds to complete this part of the stage... I would understand taking the 30 second miss penalty to a score. The 6 misses alone makes for 30 seconds. Add on another 30 for SOG, still a "good deal" on this stage. This is not good for the game.

 

Anyway, this is an analysis of an extreme stage design, and the question to me was if a SOG even though defined against a shooter includes some obligation on the stage writer to not make SOG a viable option. An "outer limit" on stage design which goes against promoting action.

 

Quote

...target should be of a size and distance that it's possible to hit it five times with the first pistol, but understandable if you need both, or more, to do it...

 

If I play engineer and statistician, if 66% of shooters can do it without reloading, and every shooter who does not reloads once, then the targets have been engaged and no SOG. So stage instructions allowing (limiting) to one full reload...

 

Nope, not working for me, I can still game that. Best to just take misses from the 1st 10 and not go further. IMHO, don't create a situation prone to gaming. Especially for the least accurate slowest shooters.

 

 

Edited June 10 by John Kloehr
Proper quoting

[Tom Bullweed]

How about a two-second bonus for pistol hits beyond five?

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I often question the intention behind ideas that seek to increase difficulties in an entry level sport (which is what Cowboy is) - and THEN want to further increase difficulties by requiring full reloads and requiring shoot until a HIT quota is fulfilled.

 

Sometimes these type of very specific ideas make me wonder if the person is in possession of a given skillset and believes the implementation of this challenge may show certain groups benefit.

 

I personally do not believe inserting challenges that are guaranteed to frustrate and discourage new, lesser skilled or casual shooters is any way to grow our game - and honestly these types of challenges are of little entertainment value even to those of us who are capable of these attempts. 

 

A really basic example of this thought process was a moving target that my club used to use - you pulled a lever and a target moved AWAY from the shooter; away from the firing line.

 

When I took over match writing duties; one of the first things I did was reverse the array - so that the target, when released, moved TOWARD the firing line.

 

My thought was that the "slower, less experienced shooters" in the original design were penalized by requiring a greater number of their shots to be longer distance - whereas when the target comes closer to the shooter as it progresses; the slower shooter is STILL slower but at least their target gets easier.

The "faster, more experienced" shooter takes more shots at the longer distance.

 

I am always an advocate for the greatest level of inclusion within our game and smiles on the faces of Buckeroos and Grand Dames are vastly more important than a challenge designed to frustrate most and stroke the ego of a few.

 

[Ozark Huckleberry]

The question got me thinking . . .

 

What about a stage with 5 pistol knockdowns as described (smaller and more distant), a Texas star closer in, and a dump plate.

 

Shooter has the option -- engage small distant targets until down OR engage Texas star until cleared. Unused rounds go to the dump plate.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

You don't like your target resetters, do you? 

[Idaho Gunslinger]

15 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

Dump target or safely into the berm for unfired rounds, that is my quick response..

 

But I understand the emphasis of Cowboy Action Shooting is on Action.

 

Don't make it so difficult as to lead a shooter to risk an SOG for abandoning the effort.

 

Hypothetically  (way too small a target way too far away), having perhaps hit 4 targets with the 1st 10 rounds, looking at 3 reloads of both pistols plus disposing of unfired rounds to complete this part of the stage... I would understand taking the 30 second miss penalty to a score. The 6 misses alone makes for 30 seconds. Add on another 30 for SOG, still a "good deal" on this stage. This is not good for the game.

 

Anyway, this is an analysis of an extreme stage design, and the question to me was if a SOG even though defined against a shooter includes some obligation on the stage writer to not make SOG a viable option. An "outer limit" on stage design which goes against promoting action.

 

 

If I play engineer and statistician, if 66% of shooters can do it without reloading, and every shooter who does not reloads once, then the targets have been engaged and no SOG. So stage instructions allowing (limiting) to one full reload...

 

Nope, not working for me, I can still game that. Best to just take misses from the 1st 10 and not go further. IMHO, don't create a situation prone to gaming. Especially for the least accurate slowest shooters.

 

 

I interpret this stage as you have 10+ shots to get 5 hits so there are only 5 possible misses regardless of the number of shots. 

 

Personally I think having a stage that might require shooters to reload pistols on the clock is a pretty bad idea and won't be fun for the people watching and likely won't be fun for the shooter while they're reloading pistols because they missed 6+ shots. 

 

We recently did a stage (for experimentation) where there was clay pigeon hanging at 8-10 yards (I don't remember the exact distance but it was halfway between the pistol and rifle targets and the pistol targets were at 6-7 yards). You shot 9 pistol shots on steel targets in a sweep and then used your last shot to shoot the clay pigeon. Out of 13 shooters there were no hits. I shoot gunfighter so I was one handed but I even felt like I spent an extra second or two trying to make sure I got it and I still missed it, just a hair low. Lesson learned was to move the clay pigeon even closer. It's a pretty small target to hit with these "old" fixed sight pistols, especially when the timer is running. 

[John Kloehr]

31 minutes ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

I interpret this stage as you have 10+ shots to get 5 hits so there are only 5 possible misses regardless of the number of shots. 

Good point! All good points, but I definitely brain farted on counting misses.

[Shawnee Hills]

This might be looked upon by the more experienced shooters as an okay challenge but is going to frustrate most.  At the least, you'd need a dump plate to be able to expend all rounds in the name of 'safety' and drop the possibility of reloading.  Allowing pistol reloads will really slow down the posse.  At the end of the day, you'll very likely see your attendance decrease for the next match.  Of course, this is all theoretical . . . right?

[Yul Lose]

17 hours ago, Reverend P. Babcock Chase said:

Howdy HK & Others,

 

Having a dump plate solves and safety concerns. If the shooter can't make 5 hits with 10 shots, just score the misses and have him move on. I'm sure there would be some complaints, but I think it would make an interesting stage. Like the Texas star, folks would either love is or hate it.

 

Rev. Chase

That is so true, I will not attend a match that has a Texas Star as part of a stage. I came to shoot not watch people reset the Texas Star. The last match that I attended with the Texas Star in play took nearly 90 minutes per stage to shoot because of the slow reset times, no thanks. 

[Yul Lose]

19 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

This is entirely theoretical.

 

On one stage over the course of the match, you encounter the following...

 

There is one pistol target, but it's smaller than normal, and a bit farther out than normal.   Perhaps it's out at typical rifle distance and maybe one half to three quarters the typical size.   Stage directions tell you to hit the target 5 times total.   Reloading as needed after shooting both pistols to empty.

In other words the target should be of a size and distance that it's possible to hit it five times with the first pistol, but understandable if you need both, or more, to do it.

Not sure what the rules would require you to do with unused rounds.   Dump 'em?  Since hammer would be down on an empty chamber/spent round, don't worry about it?   

I think it could make for an unusual variation every once in a great while.   Wouldn't wanna see it more than once in a match, and prolly not in every match, but I think it might be interesting to give this a try.

Some match directors out here are proud of the fact that they have few clean shooters because they’ve moved the targets out and decreased the target size and that’s probably why their attendance has dropped so drastically, my opinion of course. These matches used to have 40+ shooters at a monthly and now they’re down to teens or lower in match attendance. 

[Texas Maverick]

4 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

That is so true, I will not attend a match that has a Texas Star as part of a stage. I came to shoot not watch people reset the Texas Star. The last match that I attended with the Texas Star in play took nearly 90 minutes per stage to shoot because of the slow reset times, no thanks. 

Same here, I boycott a certain club because they have a mine cart that you have to get into and it rolls down a small hill while you are shooting at targets. It rolls differently for everyone depending on the shooters size and to me doesn't maintain a fairness to all shooters. It is also dangerous and I refuse to do the stage so I don't go there anymore.

 

TM

[Captain Bill Burt]

3 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

Some match directors out here are proud of the fact that they have few clean shooters because they’ve moved the targets out and decreased the target size and that’s probably why their attendance has dropped so drastically, my opinion of course. These matches used to have 40+ shooters at a monthly and now they’re down to teens or lower in match attendance. 

I agree.  Some Match Directors don't have their finger on the pulse of what the vast majority of SASS shooters are looking for.  Some mistakenly think they can slow down the top shooters and give mid pack shooters a better chance with more difficult stages (the opposite is what usually happens).

 

Pistol reloads can be a problem for many shooters.  Add in the fact that some of us have to take our pistols to half cock in order to load, and have engrained a habit of doing that with our right hand, then transferring the pistol to our left hand to do a right handed reload and you're setting shooters up for a DQ.

 

I would walk away from a match that included this and not return unless assured it would never be included again. 

 

[John Kloehr]

19 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

... Pistol reloads can be a problem for many shooters.  Add in the fact that some of us have to take our pistols to half cock in order to load, and have engrained a habit of doing that with our right hand, then transferring the pistol to our left hand to do a right handed reload and you're setting shooters up for a DQ.

Not a DQ, it is an exception:

 

 

[Stump Water]

5 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

I will not attend a match that has a Texas Star as part of a stage. I came to shoot not watch people reset the Texas Star. The last match that I attended with the Texas Star in play took nearly 90 minutes per stage to shoot because of the slow reset times, no thanks. 

 

I don't know how else to say this, so... yer doin' it wrong.  The star takes about 30 seconds to reset.  Even with one person.  About as much time as it takes someone to amble down range and reset the SG targets.

 

Of course, that TX star may have been "engineered" in some way other than the ones I have seen.

 

ETA: when the star takes a long time to reset it's usually because there are three people "helping" each other.   

Edited June 10 by Stump Water

[Yul Lose]

1 minute ago, Stump Water said:

 

I don't know how else to say this, so... yer doin' it wrong.  The star takes about 30 seconds to reset.  Even with one person.  About as much time as it takes someone to amble down range and reset the SG targets.

 

Of course, that TX star may have been "engineered" in some way other than the ones I have seen.

Doubtful.

[Stump Water]

Ok.

[SHOOTIN FOX]

If you have a Texas star with spring loaded plates that do not fall off the frame, 30 seconds may be possible. Most stars let the targets fall to the ground. 30 seconds does not sound probable.

[Shawnee Hills]

I have a Texas star on my home range.  It’s a lot of fun but might not be when resetting it for an entire posse. While I’ve not timed myself, I’m sure it takes me a bit longer than 30 seconds to reset it.  I can confirm that picking the plates off the ground while wearing a gun belt is no fun; and I’m in pretty fair shape.

[Dilli GaHoot Galoot]

Someone may have suggested this, I read though it all but might have missed it.   Add a 5 plate falling plate rack after the first smaller target so the drill is mandatory 5 shots on the smaller target followed by engaging the falling plates with any rounds left with a 1 second bonus for each plate knocked down

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I remember having reloads on stages.  (We polished our cylinders and "took the edge" off the back of the cylinders to greatly help.)
For most it was very discouraging.  We don't want discouraged shooters.

 

On a side note:

I was on the posse with Single Action Jackson and he was amazing. After shooting five, his shells quickly fell to the ground like rain drops.  Then five reloads appeared to quickly fall from his hand into the cylinder and ready to fire.  It was wonderful to watch.

He went to a big match (Hell on wheels maybe) where they had shoot offs for top shooters.  They required a reload.  He blew everyone away and won by 10 - 15 seconds.

Edited June 13 by Marauder SASS #13056

[Dusty Devil Dale]

On 6/10/2024 at 4:25 PM, Yul Lose said:

Doubtful.

SW is correct, Yul. 

One person resetting the Star correctly is actually much faster than two or three people getting into each others way. 

 

Several of us played around for an afternoon, looking for the fastest way to do the reset.  One person who knows the technique can break 30 seconds, even including plate pick up time,     and the best part is that when properly done,  the Star is already in balance.  You just walk away.  It does not spin.  

 

When a second person tries to hold the arms in position, the resetting person has to set plates in awkward positions, which takes much longer and can eat fingers. 

But done properly, standing at the side, facing the edge of the wheel, the arms fall right into the resetter's comfortable sweet spot as soon as you start attaching the plates.  After the first plate is attached, you dont even have to pull the arms.  Gravity does it for you.  Just catch each arm as it drops into position. 

 

Next time we have the T-Star set up, I'll make a short video to post here.  

 

You are right though, Yul. most folks take forever between shooters.  Maybe a clear video can help that.   My experience is that shooters do enjoy shooting the T-Star.   

[Ozark Huckleberry]

On 6/10/2024 at 7:11 AM, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

You don't like your target resetters, do you? 

Are you referring to not noticing the 'OR' in the suggestion, or just don't like Texas stars?

 

 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

6 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

Are you referring to not noticing the 'OR' in the suggestion, or just don't like Texas stars?

 

 

Oh, I saw the "or", I'm just thinking that if you put out knockdowns and a Texas Star and have the shooter choose, your target resetters have to keep going back and forth between the two groups of targets to reset them. In hot weather (like we're having now), your workers will get worn out quickly and if you do this at a big match, the downtime for resetting the star is a pain for people waiting. I like the Star, just won't use it when its hot out due to the laborious resets. I do like different and not saying trying new things is bad, but folks used to running "light and fast" will get aggravated and stop coming... trust me.