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Have lost brass matches gone the way of the Dodo?


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I was just talking to a pard about this the other day and he had never heard of this kind of match.  I totally know how they are run but couldn't figure out how to explain it to him, maybe you could explain it in a way I . . . I mean HE would understand?  :blink:

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The last Winter Range I attended in Phoenix was a lost brass match.

If you wanted your brass back you could buy it(and lots of other peoples' ) from the Boy Scouts, who would recover and sort brass after the day's shooting was done.

No guarantee that you got your personal brass, but you could buy some to replace yours.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Dilli GaHoot Galoot said:

I was just talking to a pard about this the other day and he had never heard of this kind of match.  I totally know how they are run but couldn't figure out how to explain it to him, maybe you could explain it in a way I . . . I mean HE would understand?  :blink:

Lost brass matches are traditionally "Large" matches that run multiple flights and utilize a posse in every bay.

 

This abundance of shooters needing to get thru the stages in a timely manner requires strict pacing to ensure that posses move smoothly and efficiently.

 

The general rule is "Beep to beep in two minutes" - meaning that from shooter A's BEEP thru their time shooting, exiting the stage, target reset, prop resets, calling up Shooter B, their firearms staging, gear fiddling, stating of line and BEEP - all need to be completed at or under 2 minutes for all 20 to 25 shooters on the posse and over the 4-6 stages shot each day.

 

Brass pickers poring thru the stage searching for that last 38 special casing extend these times out too long.

 

It is much easier/ quicker to have someone simply grab a rake and clear the rifle brass/ shotgun shells from underfoot and move on.

 

Yes, "lost brass" only applies to the brass/ shotgun shells that ends up on the ground from rifle/ shotgun - your pistol brass from the unloading table is yours.

 

Also "Brass Shotgun Shells" WILL be picked up and returned to the shooter because of the cost of this component - and that 4-6 shells can be done more quickly than 10 rifle cases and 4-6 shells.

 

So in the course of a 12 stage match - you will stand to lose 120 RIFLE cases and 50 or so shotgun shells.

 

But you will save approx. thirty seconds to one minute per shooter per stage - so for our 25 person posse over 12 stages - you save anywhere from 2 1/2 to 5 HOURS of time on the range.

 

This number is hugely important when you can have posses getting backed up - and then this backs up the 2nd or 3rd flights from getting started on time.

 

I have shot multi flight matches where poor posse flow has added HOURS to the day.  And I have Match Directed enough matches to understand how little of a "thing" can throw off the timing of a match - lost brass is just one way to control at least one of the time eating variables.

 

And as others have pointed out - usually the Boy Scouts or some civic organization will come thru and pick up the brass in bulk after the days shooting or match completion; separate by caliber and auction it off at the awards ceremony.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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21 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Dunno over all.  But there is absolutely NO WAY to recover brass during Guns of August.

We pick what stays on the platforms, everything else falls on a tarp below. Scouts pour it into buckets and auction it off at the end. 

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I lose brass at every match.  When shooting 38 Special I don't really worry about it.  Shooting 45 Colt or 44 WCF hurts.

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5 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Haven’t been to a lost brass match in a very long time. Are there any still around? 

At state level or above they should all be lost brass matches. Or have brass rats assigned to every stage that can jump in and clear between shooters or at the end of the stage . Keeps the stages moving and let’s the competitors focus on the match instead of hunting for every last piece of brass. Your talking about $20-25 worth of new brass for a 2 day event, pretty insignificant amount when you consider what you are spending overall. 
LF 

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1 hour ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

EOT is still a lost brass match. Since it moved to Phoenix.

EOT was "lost brass" when held at Founders Ranch too.  At least for the cowboy match part.   Collected between posses by Boy Scouts and 4H too.

good luck, GJ

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Posted (edited)

There were some exceptions to the lost brass matches I've been to. Shooting RMC 10g brass shells filled with BP, I never had a problem having those get picked up and handed back to me!

Edited by Jackson Haller
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I hope so.

 

But, yes, Guns of August is a Semi-Lost Brass Match.  The Boy Scouts recover everything that goes forward of the Shooting Line or out the windows of the stages and then the brass is auctioned with funding for the Scouts.

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I've been to a couple matches that weren't exactly lost brass. But they didn't shut down the firing line either to look for a few more pieces.  You got back what you got back.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think I've ever seen a Fifty-plus (50 +) item signature line.  Congratulations.

Edited by T-Square
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The last two years at EOT Wild Bunch we were allowed to pick brass.  A shooter got back most of their brass.  The system worked out well.  We did not get brass that went forward.  Large matches that are time restricted, typically have 15+ on a posse.  One or two brass pickers PAYING ATTENTION to the brass can easily pick and move to the unloading table as the next shooter is called to shoot.  If rifle is first I will have the brass to the unloading table before the shooter.  The only time to get "forward" brass is when there is a downrange, again brass pickers need to watch the purpose of the down range and not be the last to leave down range.  Cowpokes who shoot 44-40, as did the original cowpokes, deserve to get their brass back.  Brass pickers need to be respectful. Posse marshals need to do their job.

 Want your brass back?  Request that Starr is on your posse.  A well organized posse can get back most brass and NOT increase time between "beeps".

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10 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Haven’t been to a lost brass match in a very long time. Are there any still around? 

 

 Come to think of it, Smoke in the Woods 2011 was the last lost brass match I was at!

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why have a lost brass shoot ? whats the point - feed the club with brass they can sell ? make it go fast to get done quick ? i dont get it 

 

most of us reload - we want our brass , whats the point ? 

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8 hours ago, watab kid said:

why have a lost brass shoot ? whats the point - feed the club with brass they can sell ? make it go fast to get done quick ? i dont get it 

 

most of us reload - we want our brass , whats the point ? 

Read what creeker posted, pretty good explanation. 

21 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Lost brass matches are traditionally "Large" matches that run multiple flights and utilize a posse in every bay.

 

This abundance of shooters needing to get thru the stages in a timely manner requires strict pacing to ensure that posses move smoothly and efficiently.

 

The general rule is "Beep to beep in two minutes" - meaning that from shooter A's BEEP thru their time shooting, exiting the stage, target reset, prop resets, calling up Shooter B, their firearms staging, gear fiddling, stating of line and BEEP - all need to be completed at or under 2 minutes for all 20 to 25 shooters on the posse and over the 4-6 stages shot each day.

 

Brass pickers poring thru the stage searching for that last 38 special casing extend these times out too long.

 

It is much easier/ quicker to have someone simply grab a rake and clear the rifle brass/ shotgun shells from underfoot and move on.

 

Yes, "lost brass" only applies to the brass/ shotgun shells that ends up on the ground from rifle/ shotgun - your pistol brass from the unloading table is yours.

 

Also "Brass Shotgun Shells" WILL be picked up and returned to the shooter because of the cost of this component - and that 4-6 shells can be done more quickly than 10 rifle cases and 4-6 shells.

 

So in the course of a 12 stage match - you will stand to lose 120 RIFLE cases and 50 or so shotgun shells.

 

But you will save approx. thirty seconds to one minute per shooter per stage - so for our 25 person posse over 12 stages - you save anywhere from 2 1/2 to 5 HOURS of time on the range.

 

This number is hugely important when you can have posses getting backed up - and then this backs up the 2nd or 3rd flights from getting started on time.

 

I have shot multi flight matches where poor posse flow has added HOURS to the day.  And I have Match Directed enough matches to understand how little of a "thing" can throw off the timing of a match - lost brass is just one way to control at least one of the time eating variables.

 

And as others have pointed out - usually the Boy Scouts or some civic organization will come thru and pick up the brass in bulk after the days shooting or match completion; separate by caliber and auction it off at the awards ceremony.

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16 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

EOT was "lost brass" when held at Founders Ranch too.  At least for the cowboy match part.   Collected between posses by Boy Scouts and 4H too.

good luck, GJ

Every time I was at EOT at Founders Ranch the Boy Scouts/ 4H picked up your brass and brought it to the unload table for you. They usually had 2 or 3 per stage and they got it pretty quickly. They had tip jars on the stages.

 

Randy

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Boy scouts is a fantastic legacy that we may be loosing,  ifn we don't support clubs like that, what the hell we doing? Those young men are doing good things, learning the right way, including shooting sports! I will loose my brass for them youngsters, no question(cause ima gonna bud on a bucket anyway )

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Every time I was at EOT at Founders Ranch the Boy Scouts/ 4H picked up your brass and brought it to the unload table for you.

Yes, as EOT matured at FR, we evolved to having our Boy Scouts hustling after every shooter's turn.  Took more work with the boys keeping them moving quickly, but more shooters were satisfied by getting their own brass back.  Only a really slow posse would be warned about "being slow" and perhaps not have brass picked immediately.

 

And that freed the award ceremony from having to do a brass auction, too.  Just so many things to recommend getting the brass back immediately.  That does take partitioning the bays with berms to allow travel forward of the firing line, of course.

 

good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, watab kid said:

why have a lost brass shoot ? whats the point - feed the club with brass they can sell ? make it go fast to get done quick ? i dont get it 

 

most of us reload - we want our brass , whats the point ? 

The real benefit of a lost brass match (usually a big national, world or really well attended state match) is that if picking brass adds as little as 15 seconds to get to the next shooter, that adds about five minutes per stage (twenty member posse) or 20 minutes (at least) to each wave which adds up to 1 hour to the shooting day (three waves per day), In addition, as well as delaying the next wave start time and creating backups for all subsequent posses (even those on your own wave) it means match officials have to spend another hour or more on duty. Some stages don't lend themselves to only 15 seconds per shooter to gather the brass especially common line bays, some pickers think they are honor bound to gather every last piece of brass no matter how long it takes, sometimes stage fronts hide the brass from easy acquisition and some shooters think their brass is actually gold and insist on getting involved in directing the pickers to find it all, that said, fifteen seconds per shooter is very optimistic!

As a posse marshall I will generally let the pickers gather the "dash" caliber brass (44-40, 38-40 and 32's) so long as it is safe and expedient and IF we are not falling behind or holding anyone up. Brass shotshells are always picked up on my posse's as both a safety measure and due to their cost.

Simply put at a big match that you have paid $200 + to attend, with 3 hours per day per wave where you will only be losing 120 or so pieces, (about $22 for 38's or $30 for 45's brand new starline), it is really no more than a 10% tip to your total cost, the time lost picking brass definitely falls into the "not really worth it" category.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

Edited by Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life
math
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As a 44 shooter I always hated lot brass matches. 

But did them once or twice anyways lol 

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11 hours ago, Long Fingers, SASS#56813 said:

Read what creeker posted, pretty good explanation. 

ok , that makes sense , i guess i missed his comments first time through , or got interupted here and skipped it on returning , that happens here often 

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4 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

The real benefit of a lost brass match (usually a big national, world or really well attended state match) is that if picking brass adds as little as 15 seconds to get to the next shooter, that adds about five minutes per stage (twenty member posse) or 20 minutes (at least) to each wave which adds up to 1 hour to the shooting day (three waves per day), In addition, as well as delaying the next wave start time and creating backups for all subsequent posses (even those on your own wave) it means match officials have to spend another hour or more on duty. Some stages don't lend themselves to only 15 seconds per shooter to gather the brass especially common line bays, some pickers think they are honor bound to gather every last piece of brass no matter how long it takes, sometimes stage fronts hide the brass from easy acquisition and some shooters think their brass is actually gold and insist on getting involved in directing the pickers to find it all, that said, fifteen seconds per shooter is very optimistic!

As a posse marshall I will generally let the pickers gather the "dash" caliber brass (44-40, 38-40 and 32's) so long as it is safe and expedient and IF we are not falling behind or holding anyone up. Brass shotshells are always picked up on my posse's as both a safety measure and due to their cost.

Simply put at a big match that you have paid $200 + to attend, with 3 hours per day per wave where you will only be losing 120 or so pieces, (about $22 for 38's or $30 for 45's brand new starline), it is really no more than a 10% tip to your total cost, the time lost picking brass definitely falls into the "not really worth it" category.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

thanks , between you and creeker im getting it , ive not been to one of those really big matches , not sure i could keep up the pace anymore , but now it all makes sense to me 

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