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? on ATF's new rule defining who needs an FFL license


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ATF rule that requires anyone selling personal firearms needs to have an FFL license.

It is my understanding that this new rule was listed on the Federal register on April 29th 2024 and that compliance with the rule needs to be in effect by May 29th 2024.

Trying to understand any rule being made by the establishment can be very difficult.

This is a very bold move made by ATF and I'm hoping that it will be repealed in the near future. There are many challenges being made against the rule. Hope they are successful.

Johnny Meadows

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Is this real?  I just packed up a couple guns to sell at the Cowboy Yard Sale at AL State match this week.  Hopefully they will sell.

 

I assume no change to cap and ball/muzzleloaders  

Edited by Diamond Jake
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If a non FFL sells online THROUGH  an FFL, issat now legal or illegal or the grey area the gumbint prefers?

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ATF is also going to gunsmiths and gun stores and really looking hard at paperwork.  Two gunsmiths here in CT got audited and errors were found.

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Amazing how they just bypass congress these days and think it will solve crime. Criminals couldn't care any less,it just makes their lives easier.:angry::FlagAm:

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I think the rule is that if you're selling guns for a profit then you need an FFL.  Rule is vague enough (which is the point ) that it can be interpreted broadly or narrowly, as the case may be.  Folks who are on web sites constantly selling firearms may fall under the rule.

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My FFL dealer said that the new rule as he sees it is that if I sell a gun without going through an FFL then I can be held liable for any criminal actions from the buyer with the gun.

 

TM

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Finally, being the world’s worst impulse buyer and seller is paying off. My own wife has stopped believing that I even come close to breaking even on my gun purchases. 
 

ATF be damned, I’m going out to find something to spend too much money on right now. 

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2 hours ago, Texas Maverick said:

My FFL dealer said that the new rule as he sees it is that if I sell a gun without going through an FFL then I can be held liable for any criminal actions from the buyer with the gun.

 

TM


Add how does one trace a firearm used by a criminal back to the Seller?

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The way GOA was talking even selling a single gun for a profit or to a family member could come under the new rule. I think a lot of us hype, but the way ATF acts under this administration, it's certainly possible. 

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6 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:


Add how does one trace a firearm used by a criminal back to the Seller?

Through a data base they have "somehow" acquired which they are not supposed to have?

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1 minute ago, Rip Snorter said:

Through a data base they have "somehow" acquired which they are not supposed to have?

Bingo. 

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7 hours ago, Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L said:

ATF rule that requires anyone selling personal firearms needs to have an FFL license.

It is my understanding that this new rule was listed on the Federal register on April 29th 2024 and that compliance with the rule needs to be in effect by May 29th 2024.

Trying to understand any rule being made by the establishment can be very difficult.

This is a very bold move made by ATF and I'm hoping that it will be repealed in the near future. There are many challenges being made against the rule. Hope they are successful.

Johnny Meadows

NOPE

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29 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:


Add how does one trace a firearm used by a criminal back to the Seller?

They have to have access to some database we are unaware of. I sold a gun to a guy down in Houston and about 6 months later got a call from the Houston PD that they had recovered the gun and I showed to be the last person to have owned it. Luckily I had created a bill of sale with a copy of the buyers driver's license and they were able to track him down to return the gun. They never said how they got my info even though I asked.

 

TM

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14 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

Through a data base they have "somehow" acquired which they are not supposed to have?

Government agency serves a warrant to a firearm manufacture.  “Where did model with serial number x-xxx go? “. ABC Warehouse.

 

Then Government agency serves a warrant to ABC Warehouse. “Where did model with serial number x-xxx go? “.  DEF distributer.

 

Government agency then serves a warrant to DEF distributor.  “Where did model with serial number x-xxx go? “.  Brandon’s Gunshop,

 

Government agency then serves a warrant to Brandon’s Gunshop.  “Who did you sell model with serial number x-xxx to?”  To a Hunter Hophead at ….

 

Government agency the serves a warrant to Hunter Hophead.  “You purchased a firearm, model with serial x-xxx.  Where is that firearm now?”  Think my former girl friend took it, garbage can, don’t think I sold it.  I don’t remember.

 

Where’s the government agency going to go from here?

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Tall Tale Todd said:

The ATF is not a legislative body and to do anything other than enforce the rules already on the book is beyond their purview. 

They are not making a new rule, they are modifying an existing rule of the definition of who is a dealer. Read the 40 or more pages defining this and then you will be really confused.

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33 minutes ago, Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L said:

They are not making a new rule, they are modifying an existing rule of the definition of who is a dealer. Read the 40 or more pages defining this and then you will be really confused.

BINGO 

It has always been against the law to engage in commerce in firearms without the proper federal license. Probably includes local licenses as well. Never a problem selling or trading a gun here or there as long as it’s not your livelihood. The problem now becomes, what does that mean? How many transfers constitute livelihood? 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Lead Monger said:

BINGO 

It has always been against the law to engage in commerce in firearms without the proper federal license. Probably includes local licenses as well. Never a problem selling or trading a gun here or there as long as it’s not your livelihood. The problem now becomes, what does that mean? How many transfers constitute livelihood? 

That (livelihood) is no longer a part of the definition. Just profit.

 

So if I bought a gun for $100 in 2019 and it sits in my safe for 5 years... that gun is worth $123 today (per a random inflation calculator). I think the ATF counts that as a 23% profit. I can't buy any more milk or bread with the money than I could in 2019! I can buy 23% less.

 

And I do have an H&R top-break .22 which fits this description... I don't shoot it, I don't use it, I have no use for it today. It is one of two guns I currently have no use for. The other has extra magazines, holster, the original box with all the papers and even decals. It is complete with a low round count. And I have had it long enough for inflation to result in a higher than my original new price for the used firearm. So I can take a clear loss trading it in at an FFL on something I do want (nothing at the moment) or risk being a felon for selling it on the open market.

 

Hey, if you do not have a local carry permit showing a local current address matching your driver's license, I'll  spring for the FFL fee out of my own pocket. But otherwise, I should not be a felon for a private sale in my state. By the new rules, I need to upgrade to something better to "improve" my collection. I also must NEVER buy the same or similar gun again. I think the ATF decides what is "similar."

 

Because of the holsters and magazines and other stuff, that I paid less for my recent acquisition of a 3913 Without any extras) than my P938 can sell for... That might also be considered a profit. And purchase of a similar firearm.

 

How this should have anything to do with the (hypothetical) guy selling solvent traps (now new and improved without a center punch in the end cap) or the (hypothetical) guy selling his hand-built AR15 collection and willing to swap any accessories among any of them to make a sale...

 

The new net really does cast far too wide.

 

 

Edited by John Kloehr
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The value of a non-registered, non-traceable firearm just went up.

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3 hours ago, Lead Monger said:

BINGO 

It has always been against the law to engage in commerce in firearms without the proper federal license. Probably includes local licenses as well. Never a problem selling or trading a gun here or there as long as it’s not your livelihood. The problem now becomes, what does that mean? How many transfers constitute livelihood? 

 

The ones who are taunting the dragon know who they are.  This rule will change nothing.

 

Private sales are banned in my state so I haven't had to worry about this for years.  That said, I think there's a lot of fear out there of things not likely to happen.  The people selling hundreds or thousands of firearms per year at a profit without any kind of license know exactly who they are and those are the ones who are going to be ensnared in the net.

 

You guys would also be shocked at the percentage of cases investigated federal that ever get prosecuted.  Despite a vast federal LE apparatus, many of these cases never go to court, even ones that the government would win.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Government agency serves a warrant to a firearm manufacture.  “Where did model with serial number x-xxx go? “. ABC Warehouse.

 

Then Government agency serves a warrant to ABC Warehouse. “Where did model with serial number x-xxx go? “.  DEF distributer.

 

Government agency then serves a warrant to DEF distributor.  “Where did model with serial number x-xxx go? “.  Brandon’s Gunshop,

 

Government agency then serves a warrant to Brandon’s Gunshop.  “Who did you sell model with serial number x-xxx to?”  To a Hunter Hophead at ….

 

Government agency the serves a warrant to Hunter Hophead.  “You purchased a firearm, model with serial x-xxx.  Where is that firearm now?”  Think my former girl friend took it, garbage can, don’t think I sold it.  I don’t remember.

 

Where’s the government agency going to go from here?

Incidentally, I don't think they need a warrant for this process (maybe they'd get one anyway, or maybe they need it for a specific trace?). You agree as an FFL to allow inspections regardless, and support traces. You even have to have a certain number of computers around, be able to print on demand, etc, etc.

 

You've also kind of hit the nail on the head when it comes to the regulatory motivation behind stopping private sales. The traceability of a firearm from its manufacturer to where it is now is totally provided by FFLs, and falls apart once a private sale happens. I can confirm that I can't even look up past transfers that I've facilitated with ATF using the NICS system (except for the tx number, date, and status), the only identifying records I have are the ones I keep. They (ostensibly) delete identifying information from the background check history, and they do not collect a serial number during the normal background check process.

 

Also incidentally, the last private transfer I facilitated (via gunbroker) involved a seller from Cali who was very, very diligent and insistent about keeping his own paperwork so he'd have answer for ATF if they showed up :D. Not that you're required to, afaik .

 

Edit: this provides some insight into how a trace starts (with a manufacturer, importer or wholesaler): https://www.atf.gov/firearms/national-tracing-center

Edited by Donovan Shoost
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9 hours ago, Snakebite said:

The value of a non-registered, non-traceable firearm just went up.

But if caught selling it you can be prosecuted.

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1 hour ago, Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L said:

But if caught selling it you can be prosecuted.

It's been that way in California for many years. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L said:

Believe me, I feel your pain

Yep... trying to get rid of a lifetime of collected guns can become a quest for a collector. It's so bad that a couple years back I took some guns to a local dealer who was attending a Gun Show and took my guns on consignment. When they didn't sell, I had to pay DROS fees, register them and go through the waiting period before I could pick up my own guns! I was totally PISSED about that!  One thing that can still be done is that you can DIRECTLY hand over any of your guns to a Spouse, your children or grandchildren if they can legally own a gun, without going through a FFL. However, they have 30 days to send in a form and $19 to register it and show that it was a gift from you. 

Edited by Snakebite
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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

Yep... trying to get rid of a lifetime of collected guns can become a quest for a collector. It's so bad that a couple years back I took some guns to a local dealer who was attending a Gun Show and took my guns on consignment. When they didn't sell, I had to pay DROS fees, register them and go through the waiting period before I could pick up my own guns! I was totally PISSED about that!  One thing that can still be done is that you can DIRECTLY hand over any of your guns to a Spouse, your children or grandchildren if they can legally own a gun, without going through a FFL. However, they have 30 days to send in a form and $19 to register it and show that it was a gift from you. 

This last year I have sold many guns from older shooters that can no longer participate, I am now thinking about giving up my license again and still have several consignment guns on the books. I notified the customers yesterday that to return them they will need to fill out a 4473. Surprisingly, they didn't have a problem with that. They had filled out a 4473 when they purchased them, so nothing new comes from filling out another one.

It's a rough world we live in, I'm glad that I'm as old as I am.

J.M.

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15 hours ago, Donovan Shoost said:

Incidentally, I don't think they need a warrant for this process (maybe they'd get one anyway, or maybe they need it for a specific trace?).


I retired as Plant Manager of a small Telco.  Local PD asked for information on one of our Internet customers, specifically date, time and type of traffic.  I politely told the Officer a warrent would be required.  A few days later the same Officer came back with the warrant and we complied.

 

If your name isn’t on the customer’s account you get nothing from the Telco.

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This rule has been in place in various states for a number of years. What it means is any time a firearm is purchased or sold it has to purchased from or sold by, or taken to, or shipped to and from, an FFL, who handles the transfer and required background checks. Of course the FFL gets to add on a fee too.

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