Rossi R92 firing rounds not fully seated

[Mad Major]

Hello all, 

 

I have a brand spanking new Rossi R92 Gold Edition (beautiful rifle) in .357/.38 special.  I was at the range 3 weeks ago and was shooting fairly rapid fire when a round blew out of the breech and broke the extractor and sent brass fragments into my face.  Luckily I always wear eye protection so my eyes are still intact.  

 

So I began a little investigation.  The round was a reloaded aguila brass .38 special.  It ruptured at the base.  It appears the round was not fully seated into the chamber.  This round was only reloaded twice.  I have since stopped using aguila brass for reloads.  I measured the case wall and it was 0.014" thick, just like all the other .38 special and .357 brass I have.  There was no evidence of a bulge or weakening of the brass, but I don't like aguila ammo due to several rounds I have had that have failed to fire in .22 magnum and also .38 special.  

 

On the day this happened, I assumed the bolt had been pushed back by the round exploding.  But, I decided to do a dry fire test and see if the gun would fire without the bolt being all the way forward.  With a empty case seated in the bolt under the new extractor I installed (from Jack First Inc.) I cycled the action and felt the bolt want to stop about 1/8th of an inch from being fully seated.  Seems like something binds up with a bullet in the gun.  I removed the case, and tried cycling again.  Works just fine empty.  I put some live rounds in and tried to cycle.  No matter what caliber or bullet shape (LRN and CPFN), the bolt hangs about a 1/4" to a 1/8" of being fully seated to against the chamber.  I can make it seat, but like so many other forums I had to cycle the action "with authority". 

 

And thats fine, but my concern is this:  I removed all of the ammo, and cycled the action to where the bolt hangs about a 1/8" or 1/4" from being fully seated and pulled the trigger.  The hammer fully smacked the firing pin!!  This tells me that the rifle will fire a round even if it is not fully seated in the chamber.  I am 99% sure this is what happened when I was shooting rapid fire.  I must not have been fully seating the bullets and one was weaker than the others and ruptured.

 

So here is my question, is this a normal operation of the Rossi, or is my rifle possibly defective?  If there are any Rossi R92 owners out there, can you reproduce my situation and see if your rifle will allow the hammer to strike the firing pin if the bolt is not fully seated?  Many thanks in advance.

 

I edited this to add a picture of the ruptured brass:
 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

NO, not 'normal' in any way.

Stop shooting it, until repaired.

 

[Mad Major]

I really really do not want to go through the hassle of sending the rifle back to Rossi.  I have read and heard of how slow and bad their customer service and repair service is.  Do I have any other options?  

 

I replaced the extractor on my own.  The broken one went somewhere in the grass on the range and I could not find it.  You don't think I "voided the warranty" by replacing the extractor do you?  Will they give me a hard time about that?

[German Jim]

39 minutes ago, Mad Major said:

I replaced the extractor on my own.  The broken one went somewhere in the grass on the range and I could not find it.  You don't think I "voided the warranty" by replacing the extractor do you?

I'm guessing here.  Maybe remove the new extractor if you decide to send it off to Rossi and when you explain your issue, say you couldn't find the extractor.

[Sam Sackett]

Might want to check the chamber. Could be something in there not letting another one in?  I have older Rossi’s and I don’t believe there is and type of trigger block or safety on them. Never tried, but they would probably release the hammer whenever you pulled the trigger, even before the bolt was fully closed. Never tried it. Don’t know about the newer ones. 
 

Sam Sackett 

[Sedalia Dave]

No trigger block on a 92. So yes the hammer will fall whenever the trigger is pulled. 

 

Normally the hammer cannot reach the FP until after the lugs engage the bolt. In theory, this should prevent an out of battery discharge.

 

Do as Sam Sacket suggested and verify the chamber doesn't have any foreign matter in it.  Take a dummy round and drop it into the chamber. It should fully drop into the chamber on its own. If it doesn't there could be part of a broken case in the chamber or possibly some lead. Both can be really hard to see. You may be able to remove it with a brass brush.  The best way to remove either is by filling the chamber with Cerro Safe (Just like doing a chamber cast) and then driving it out with a squib rod. 

[Sedalia Dave]

Looking at your fired case, It looks like it blew out into the channel cut into the barrel breach for the extractor.  One thing I would definitely check is the head space to make sure it is not excessive.

 

A picture of how far the rear of the firing pin extends beyond the back of the bolt with the action closed and the hammer cocked.  If you can measure this distance it would be helpful.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Unless you elect to send the rifle to someone who knows what they are doing, your best bet is to bite the bullet and send it back to Rossi.  They may be slow but that is a whole lot better than using your face and eyes to stop shrapnel brass.  Be sure and include the blown case in your shipment to Rossi.  Don't include the new extractor.

[Mad Major]

I sent it off the other day.  Sorry to get back to respond so late. (removed new extractor) I started to just let it go, but then I figured it was a brand new rifle, and it should not have blown up on me like that.  Rossi has already responded and said they will let me know what they find out and will cover the repairs under warranty.  They paid for the shipping. 

 

What is everyone's opinions on using the spring kits and swapping out the springs to smooth up the action?  Is it possible to just break it in to smooth it up naturally, or is it better to put lighter springs in?  I have seen mixed reviews on this on several forums.

 

[Mad Major]

On 4/23/2024 at 12:00 AM, Sedalia Dave said:

No trigger block on a 92. So yes the hammer will fall whenever the trigger is pulled. 

 

Normally the hammer cannot reach the FP until after the lugs engage the bolt. In theory, this should prevent an out of battery discharge.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.  I wasn't sure if it would hit the firing pin or not, but I sure wasn't going to try it with a live round.  I am looking forward to see what Rossi says when they finish the repair.  I have seen mixed reviews on Rossi service, so far they have been pretty responsive on this particular issue.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I'm not sure why I didn't notice this thread before.  Regarding the issue of it being hard to chamber a round that last little bit, that is pretty normal on '92's.  It is the ejector on the face of the bolt being pushed into the bolt by the base of the cartridge as you chamber it.   That is why you don't feel it when cycling the action with no ammo, because the ejector doesn't push into the bolt face.  The ejector spring inside the bolt is stout, and action jobs and spring kits involve lightening or replacing that spring so it takes less effort to close the action while chambering a cartridge.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

OP, let a pro tune the 92

[Trailrider #896]

The ejector springs in the Rossi '92's probably came from the trucks on a railroad boxcar! I have some early Puma and M95 Rossi's, and had to cut a turn-and-a-half off the ejector springs and then compressed the spring in a bench vise! Haven't had any problems, and as I keep my trigger finger out of the guard until the action is fully closed, I'm not sure if the hammer will fall. Mine are in .44-40 and .44 Magnum, respectively. Glad you weren't seriously hurt!

[Mad Major]

So my rifle made it back to Rossi.  A few ladies have called me from Rossi to ask additional questions about how it happened.  I am pretty pleased so far about how responsive they have been.  They asked if I wanted the rifle repaired and I said of course, but if it needs to be replaced, then replace it.  Looking forward to see what happens.

[Sedalia Dave]

I checked both of my Rossi 92s this evening, and the hammer will reach the firing pin if the bolt is not fully closed. However, by the time the hammer can reach the firing pin, the locking lugs are over 50% engaged with the bolt. So no worries about the bolt being pushed back or bending the lever.

 

The only part of the case that was not supported was where the extractor groove is. Which is where it looks like your case failed.

[Griff]

Since the Rossi or Winchester '92 doesn't have a firing pin return spring, they have a fork at the upper end of the lever that straddles a flat area of the firing pin;  these are ramped to enable it to pull the firing pin out of contact with the case prior to moving the bolt to the rear, extracting the case.  Theoretically, this should also prevent the firing pin from protruding past the bolt face until the lever is in close contact with the lower tang, (when the locking lugs have pushed the bolt fully into battery) preventing an OOB. I would suspect that your lever or firing pin are out of spec.   I have 3 Rossi '92s, but have never encountered an OOB detonation.  My wife & son used 2 of them for their cowboy action rifles for a number of years while they were active, and if they'd ever encountered an OOB detonation, they never relayed that info to me.  I did the action work on all 3, similar to the methods described on Marauder's Rifle Tune-up page.  But, well before those much better instructions were ever posted.  

[Mad Major]

Just thought i would send an update.  Rifle is still at Rossi.  I email them probably twice a week to check on it, but they still dont have any updates.  I am anxious to get it back and see what they said was wrong with it.

 

 

Edit-  anybody have any experience with how long it takes Rossi to repair a rifle??

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

39 minutes ago, Mad Major said:

Just thought i would send an update.  Rifle is still at Rossi.  I email them probably twice a week to check on it, but they still dont have any updates.  I am anxious to get it back and see what they said was wrong with it.

 

 

Edit-  anybody have any experience with how long it takes Rossi to repair a rifle??

 

Why don't you try calling them.....

[Sedalia Dave]

43 minutes ago, Mad Major said:

Just thought i would send an update.  Rifle is still at Rossi.  I email them probably twice a week to check on it, but they still dont have any updates.  I am anxious to get it back and see what they said was wrong with it.

 

 

Edit-  anybody have any experience with how long it takes Rossi to repair a rifle??

 

 

Depends on if the fix is easy or not.  I sent one in and they said it couldn't be repaired.  Hole in the receiver was miss drilled.

 

Took them almost a year to send me a replacement as they had none in stock.

[watab kid]

glad you weren't hurt more severely , im also glad you sent it in , wish i had experience with their turn around time to share but mine has worked fine for all the years ive owned it , i used to shoot it regularly but that changed when i went to my 66 , i still have mine and its generally my backup rifle , i like it  - wish you well with yours and the service from them , i think it was the right choice 

[Mad Major]

Now I am really mad.  I asked Rossi again for an update today, and they admitted the gunsmiths aint even looked at it yet after over 3 weeks!  If the repair backlog is so huge that they can't even look at one for nearly 4 weeks, that makes me wonder about their quality if they have that many repairs to do.

[Mad Major]

So just got home from work to recive my rifle from UPS.  Supposed to be delivered today.   I called Rossi yesterday cause I got an email that said "Warranty Repair Shipment" in the subject line and nothing else.  No tracking number or nothing.  They lady said my rifle was repaired.  Said the reaced the extractor, the barrel, and the magazine screw.  Ill post an update later when it arrives.

[Mad Major]

I am pretty pleased with the repair.  No bulging cases, no extractors blowing off, and it holds a pretty tight pattern.   The one on the left is .357 semi-wadcutter, the one on the right is .357 round nose flat point.  

[Mad Major]

Oh yeah, one more thing- I swapped out the ejector spring and the main spring(hammer spring) with the spring kit from palo verde.  HOLY SMOKING SPEED DEMON.  Made a Huge difference.  Then I used some polishing stones from my knife sharpening kit and my old deburring stash from my days as a manufacturing engineer and smoothed out everything that had a parting line or a burr on it.  Then, following the advice of many forums here, squirted the action full of white lithium grease and watched a good cowboy movie cycling the action several times. 

 

When I was at the range yesterday I didnt have a single fail to feed, fail to eject, or fail to fire.  I was using .357 CAS load for 158 gn LRNFP, LSWC, and LSWCHP.  The hollow points were Hornady, the other two were from Rim Rock bullets.  The hollow points had the widest groupings.  I loaded 3.5 grains of Hodgdon HP38, and used Remington 5 1/2 size small pistol primers, and mostly starline brass, with some winchester, speer, and remington brass mixed in the batch.  I was very pleased with the results.  I will never use Aguilla again.

 

Oh, also, (this is the second one more thing) i loaded an empty case with a primer, no powder and no bullet, then put it in the chamber.  I closed the bolt and then I moved the lever back as far as I could and still not eject the case, cocked the hammer, and pulled the trigger with the casing not seated in the chamber.  The hammer struck the firing pin, but did not fire the case.  I then eased the bolt forward ever so slightly and cocked the hammer and pulled the trigger.  Still no fire.  I did this several times, easing the bolt forward about a sixteenth of an inch or so at a time until the case was fully seated.  The primer never fired until it was fully seated.  So I think we can put that question to bed.  As far as I am concerned, I am 99.999% sure the Rossi R92 will not fire out of battery.