WTC: starting position question

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

A few years ago a lot of clubs in Arizona got fed up with the SASS Default.  TO's had to constantly waste time correcting shooters in how they were standing.  They came up with what was thought to be a simple solution.  If NO starting position was stated such as: hands on hat, hands on pistol(s), rifle in hands, etc., we use the term "At The Ready."  It means stand anyway you like hands not touching guns or ammo.  It has worked out very well at our matches.

[Totes Magoats]

"Hands on hat, shooters choice of posture".   I see similar instructions at matches around here.  

 

Totes

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

A few years ago a lot of clubs in Arizona got fed up with the SASS Default.  TO's had to constantly waste time correcting shooters in how they were standing.  They came up with what was thought to be a simple solution.  If NO starting position was stated such as: hands on hat, hands on pistol(s), rifle in hands, etc., we use the term "At The Ready."  It means stand anyway you like hands not touching guns or ammo.  It has worked out very well at our matches.

You mean...like it used to be???

 

Phantom

[Yul Lose]

2 hours ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

A few years ago a lot of clubs in Arizona got fed up with the SASS Default.  TO's had to constantly waste time correcting shooters in how they were standing.  They came up with what was thought to be a simple solution.  If NO starting position was stated such as: hands on hat, hands on pistol(s), rifle in hands, etc., we use the term "At The Ready."  It means stand anyway you like hands not touching guns or ammo.  It has worked out very well at our matches.

Seems pretty simple. Wish more clubs would use it.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

36 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You mean...like it used to be???

 

Phantom

Yup, back before some former Wild Bunch member got his delicate sensibilities offended that folks within an competitive endeavor were actually (gasp) trying to compete.

 

Heavens to Betsy - that competing thing is simply bad form at our ice cream social event.

 

The default I introduced at Eldorado to negate the SASS default was "AGAP".

 

In the event that no starting position is provided - shooters are allowed to start in the "AGAP" condition.

AGAP = As gamey as possible.

[High Plains Hud SASS#64232]

Yes good question and appreciate the discussion. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

20 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Yup, back before some former Wild Bunch member got his delicate sensibilities offended that folks within an competitive endeavor were actually (gasp) trying to compete.

 

Heavens to Betsy - that competing thing is simply bad form at our ice cream social event.

 

The default I introduced at Eldorado to negate the SASS default was "AGAP".

 

In the event that no starting position is provided - shooters are allowed to start in the "AGAP" condition.

AGAP = As gamey as possible.

I think the silliness with the starting position was happening around the same time as the PF crap...

 

Sooooo many people get all worked up over how we look to the outside shooting world...which is funny cuz our uniqueness doesn't not lead to good comparisons.

 

Phantom

[Rye Miles #13621]

Let’s not forget the starting position …., As Gamey as possible !!

AGAP 

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Yeah, how the "outside" world looks at us.  I remember in the mid or late 90's the NRA was having their annual convention in Seattle, WA.  WA. was at that time a gun friendly state.  We had a huge gun show every month at the WA. State Fairgrounds and Wayne Lapierre and NRA President Charlton Heston came to the show.  Our CAS group always had some tables set up and a bunch of us were in costume promoting CAS.  Wayne Lapierre came by and said "Keep up the good work Cowboys.  You are getting us the only positive press we are getting compared to anything else we are trying."   

At least at that time the anti-gun folks didn't have anything to say about folks dressing up as Cowboys and shooting real guns.

[Scarlett]

@Assassin,

Thank you for making me giggle. Chicanery! It’s my new favorite word…to go with cattywampus, discombobulated…

 

And, Smith & Wesson!   I knew a guy back in East Tenn who had twin boys. Levi & Garrett. I kid you not. 
 

Hugs!!

Scarlett

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

5 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Let’s not forget the starting position …., As Gamey as possible !!

AGAP 

This is what I use in about half of the stages I write for our local club. Most of the rest have defined "both hands on window frame" or "hold the bag of gold off the table".

Haven't really had any problems.

Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Scarlett]

12 hours ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Wayne Lapierre came by and said "Keep up the good work Cowboys.  You are getting us the only positive press we are getting compared to anything else we are trying."   

At least at that time the anti-gun folks didn't have anything to say about folks dressing up as Cowboys and shooting real guns.

THIS!! 
 

If all shooting disciplines were as friendly as cowboy action shooters there wouldn’t be such a disconnect between gun people and non-gun people. We aren’t scary or threatening looking and we are FRIENDLY!
 

Apologies for going off topic however, if we want to preserve our gun rights and grow the sport it would behoove us to look outside of the “folks who think like us”… I hadn’t fired a handgun until October 2011 (shortly before Tommy and I got married)… I was definitely NOT a gun person…He shot 3 Gun. None of those guys were asking if I wanted to shoot a stage….went to one CAS monthly. They asked. I did.  Rest is history. 
 

Big hugs!

Scarlett

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

9 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

This is what I use in about half of the stages I write for our local club. Most of the rest have defined "both hands on window frame" or "hold the bag of gold off the table".

Haven't really had any problems.

Regards

    

Gateway Kid

But standing erect, right? 

[Hollifer A. Dollar]

1 hour ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

But standing erect, right? 

 

This reminds me of an annual match we attended a few years back.  During the posse marshal walk-thru, the starting position for one of the stages was "Shooter standing fully erect".  Well, being a smart ass, I couldn't resist.  After the MD read through the stage, I said I had 2 questions about the listed starting position.  First, who was going to check the "fully erect" part & 2nd, what about the lady shooters?  The MD looked at me like I was from Mars, then an obvious "ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh" look came across his face.  All the other PMs were laughing & the lone female PM was just busting a gut.  If I remember right, the MD took out his pen, scratched through the word "erect" & wrote in "upright".

 

Holler

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

If given starting position is hands on rifle and rifle is staged on table, a shooter cannot be standing upright unless they are very short.

Like Creeker, I feel (wrongly I guess) that a given start instruction over-rides SASS default.

 

IMO, adding in the “Shooter’s choice of posture” is just unneeded prose.

[Stump Water]

OP... no call.

 

I wrote stages for a few years.  It's just not that hard to write the stage to put the shooter in the position you want them in, to start the stage or otherwise.

 

"Start with both hands on the door frame above your shoulders."

 

OR

 

"Start with both hands flat on the table."

 

In the OP, if the stage writer wanted the shooter in some other position at the beep he should have stated it.

 

Likewise, during the stage, if you want a shooter to be somewhere you write the stage to put them there.  "Move to position 2, one foot must be behind the hay bale." isn't going to get it.  Define "behind".

 

"Shoot the rifle from position 1.  Take the rifle with you and discard it on the table at position 2.  Shoot pistols..."

 

OR

 

"Shoot the rifle from position 1.  Discard it on the table.   Take the bag of gold from the table with you and place it on the table at position 2.  Shoot pistols..." (Yeah, I can hear it now... "On the clock prop handling!?!  OH EMM GEE!!")

 

If you have the props available (perhaps a big IF at a monthly, not so much at a state or above), design the stage so the shooter can't see the targets until they are where you want them.  In other shooting sports I think it's called barricades.

 

 

 

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Thank you Stump Water for opening the door.  For many years the SASS rule book said something to the affect that "you couldn't move with a cocked, loaded  firearm unless the stage description called for it".  Many clubs had stages where you couldn't see all the pistol, rifle, or shotgun targets without moving.

Shooters could move hammer down, or action open, or action closed on a live round as long as the shooter didn't break the 170.  

Never saw a safety issue at any match that had a stage like this.   Then one day that sentence was taken out of the rule book and stage writers had to come up with new ideas for stages.  Took a lot of fun out of shooting stages.

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Oops, need to change wording on above statement.  "Shooter could move with hammer down on fired round, action open, ie. rifle or shotgun, or action cocked with live round under hammer."  

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

32 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

If you have the props available (perhaps a big IF at a monthly, not so much at a state or above), design the stage so the shooter can't see the targets until they are where you want them.  In other shooting sports I think it's called barricades.

Barricades can be a challenge at monthlies - just adding to the bulk of targets and stands requiring movement and setup.

 

What we introduced at Eldorado were "upright position markers" (we used big "texas nails" pounded into the ground - and then placed 4-6 ft lengths of pvc pipe that would stand straight up).

 

We then use a variation of the instruction "rounds from RIFLE/ PISTOLS/ SHOTGUN must pass the LEFT side/ RIGHT side of the upright marker"

 

If you have multiple positions - you can color code your upright marker with spray paint.

 

Example:

starting at RED marker with SG in hand - engage ANY 2 SG targets. 

These SG rounds must pass LEFT side of RED marker.

Then engage all remaining SG targets - these SG rounds must pass RIGHT side of GREEN marker.

Using rifle - engage rifle targets in two five round dumps.

Rifle rounds must pass RIGHT side of GREEN marker.

Then using pistols as needed - engage pistol targets in two five round dumps.

5 pistol rounds must pass RIGHT side of the RED marker - 5 pistol rounds must pass the LEFT side of the RED marker.

 

This forces the shooter to exactly the position you wish them to be in - without worrying about foot faults or body placement.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

15 hours ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Oops, need to change wording on above statement.  "Shooter could move with hammer down on fired round, action open, ie. rifle or shotgun, or action cocked with live round under hammer."  

Are you sure that was an old rule?

I haven’t been shooting very long (about 17 years) and it has always been (to my knowledge) a SDQ for movement/changing location with a cocked firearm with a live round under the hammer. See pg 22 SHB

I know some clubs did (and still do) occasionally write stages with movement where the action is open and loaded rounds are in chamber or on carrier, but you don’t see it very often. 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Used to do it at the SASS WA. State Championship back around the late 90's and early 2000's.  I know because I wrote stages for the 2003 match and had a stage where you couldn't see all the rifle targets from one position, so you could move with rifle cocked.  PaleWolf was there shooting the match.  Ask him about it.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

52 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Used to do it at the SASS WA. State Championship back around the late 90's and early 2000's.  I know because I wrote stages for the 2003 match and had a stage where you couldn't see all the rifle targets from one position, so you could move with rifle cocked.  PaleWolf was there shooting the match.  Ask him about it.

PWB can add clarity/corrections...but the old "basketball" travel rule used to allow movement. But, some folks said that wasn't the intent of the "rule".

 

So once a gun is fired, the shooter would be able to basically switch the anchor foot. There by allowing basically a step between shots.

 

Phantom

[Assassin]

12 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

PWB can add clarity/corrections...but the old "basketball" travel rule used to allow movement. But, some folks said that wasn't the intent of the "rule".

 

So once a gun is fired, the shooter would be able to basically switch the anchor foot. There by allowing basically a step between shots.

 

Phantom

Yep. However, with the stand and deliver and micro movement stages many clubs use today its a moot point.

[Tennessee williams]

4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

PWB can add clarity/corrections...but the old "basketball" travel rule used to allow movement. But, some folks said that wasn't the intent of the "rule".

 

So once a gun is fired, the shooter would be able to basically switch the anchor foot. There by allowing basically a step between shots.

 

Phantom

Technically under the description on page 22 of the shb it doesn't even mention feet. It just says continuous fluid movement.

It's been clarified in the past that continuous lateral movement during the shooting string can be "shooting on the move" even if a foot stays planted. You probably remember the video in question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Technically under the description on page 22 of the shb it doesn't even mention feet. It just says continuous fluid movement.

It's been clarified in the past that continuous lateral movement during the shooting string can be "shooting on the move" even if a foot stays planted. You probably remember the video in question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right...like I said, this has changed over the years.

 

Since we can move with a spent round under the hammer, when you come to a stop and keep a foot planted, you'd be good to go. So yes, you can basically slow walk while shooting...lot's of fun with a shotgun!!! But not any longer...

 

Soooooo dangerous...but running like a banshee with it's ass on fire is so dang safe. Moving slowly is scary!!!!!!

 

Ugh...

 

Phantom

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Anytime we had a stage that you could move with a cocked firearm the confident shooters moved with cocked firearm.  The non-confident shooters moved with action closed on fired round or with action opened.  NEVER HAD A SAFETY PROBLEM!!!!!