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WTC: starting position question


Widder, SASS #59054

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First and foremost, this did not happen to me nor at a shoot I was attending.

 

Anyhow, a fellow Cowboy shooter and I were discussing 'start positions' and being 'set' for the Beep.

 

The written instructions state that the starting position is ..... "With pistol(s) in hand".

 

The shooter holds the pistol close to his/her body approximately chest high, safely pointed down range.

Shooter then give the appropriate line and the TO gives the 'STANDBYE'.

 

At the TO's verbal "STANDBYE", the shooter pushes the pistol outward into their shooting position and

then at the 'BEEP',  immediately cocks the pistol and starts the shooting sequence.

 

Question:  is the shooter required to hold their 'close to body' position once they indicate they are set and ready, 

OR..... can he/she react to the 'STANDBYE' command and push their pistol further outward and be ready

to shoot at the 'BEEP' without incurring any penalty.

 

To me, this would be akin to "starting with rifle in hand" and having the muzzle resting on a table top.

Then at the 'Standbye', lifts the rifle up to start shooting but does not lever the first round until the 'Beep'.

 

If this body movement between the 'Standbye' and 'Beep' is a penalty, please share the rule.

 

Thanks pards.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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Maybe don't start with pistols in hand(s) if there is the slightest chance of chicanery. I just saw the opportunity to use chicanery  in a sentence. 

How about the shooter starts the timer on every stage?

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Pistol(s) in hand?

Kudos to the stage writer for exhibiting some creativity.

 

Back to your query - in hands is in hands.

In your rifle example - there was an additional caveat of "muzzle on table" - if there had been a like instruction for the pistols then movement (of the guns off the table) would be illegal.

 

But as the in hands instruction applies to pistols without any additional instruction - the shooter "could" have had their pistols extended fully forward well before the "Standby" (as I would have done).

 

The shooter simply realized they were starting their self in a compromised position and corrected before the beep.

 

The TO could have stopped and clarified the shooters state of readiness before the beep - but had no requirement to do so.

 

There is NO rule or guidance that requires body stillness prior to the beep.

No harm - no foul.

Next shooter.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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1 minute ago, Assassin said:

Maybe don't start with pistols in hand(s) if there is the slightest chance of chicanery. I just saw the opportunity to use chicanery  in a sentence. 

How about the shooter starts the timer on every stage?

What chicanery?

The shooter did nothing that EVERY other shooter couldn't do.

 

Heaven forbid a stage writer insert something other than SASS default.

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No call 

when I start rifle in hands I typically have it shouldered, but muzzle “drooping” a bit. At “standby” I bring it up to aim at first target.  I see zero problem with adjusting the way shooter holds pistols between standby & beep. 

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Just now, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

What chicanery?

The shooter did nothing that EVERY other shooter couldn't do.

 

Heaven forbid a stage writer insert something other than SASS default.

Obviously, you've never shot one of my stages,(by the way, when are you coming to Hell On Wheels?). I like to start a few steps behind the first shoot position; shooter holding coffee pot, start warming hands over fire, hands on hitching post, standing next to stump, etc. Stops any question about jumping the clock.

Adds a little to the scenario, rather than just drag race shooting.

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I think Widders question is, if the stage instructions say gun in hand, shooters discretion, can the gun be in motion at the beep.

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There's a big difference in the way those instructions could have been written. 

1) Begin standing at shooters' discretion with pistol(s) "in hand". This means the pistol(s) can be in hand and the rest of your body can be however you want it because the wording "at shooters discretion" negates the sass default for the rest of your body.

2) Begin with pistol(s) in hand. This means the pistol(s) can be in hand and the rest of the shooter is at sass default.

 

The question of the day here is does the instruction "pistols in hand" negate the rest of the arms and what you're doing with them from the default sass position. I say it does.

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27 minutes ago, Tn Tombstone said:

I think Widders question is, if the stage instructions say gun in hand, shooters discretion, can the gun be in motion at the beep.

 

Exactly.   Thanks Tombstone.

 

My posted scenario was basically how a fellow shooter ask me to present the situation.

 

As most have stated, I also said it was a 'No Call'.

 

..........Widder

 

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14 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

The question of the day here is does the instruction "pistols in hand" negate the rest of the arms and what you're doing with them from the default sass position. I say it does.

TN - Absofreakinlutely.

 

I HATE the SASS Default position

(I refer to it as Sulai position - Standing Upright Like An Idiot).

 

ANY instruction that indicates handling a firearm, prop, or touching a shelf, window frame, etc. makes the SASS default impossible to abide by - therefore negating the default completely.

 

An instruction that does not provide for a body position or fiream/ prop handling - just providing shooter placement does entail use of the default.

Shooter starts in doorway ie location; no body instruction = SASS default.

 

Shooter starts with rifle/ shotgun/ pistols or holding reins, coffee pot or lasso in hands = negation of any required body position.

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20 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

 

ANY instruction that indicates handling a firearm, prop, or touching a shelf, window frame, etc. makes the SASS default impossible to abide by - therefore negating the default completely.

 

An instruction that does not provide for a body position or fiream/ prop handling - just providing shooter placement does entail use of the default.

Shooter starts in doorway ie location; no body instruction = SASS default.

 

Shooter starts with rifle/ shotgun/ pistols or holding reins, coffee pot or lasso in hands = negation of any required body position.

That's not my understanding. For instance, if stage instruction says begin in doorway touching frame, it doesn't give you permission to be knealing in a runners 3 point stance in the doorway.

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1 hour ago, Assassin said:

Obviously, you've never shot one of my stages,(by the way, when are you coming to Hell On Wheels?). I like to start a few steps behind the first shoot position; shooter holding coffee pot, start warming hands over fire, hands on hitching post, standing next to stump, etc. Stops any question about jumping the clock.

Adds a little to the scenario, rather than just drag race shooting.

I've obviously not shot your stages and hopefully that will be corrected someday.

 

I meant no insult or offense to your stage writing - I am a firm believer in adding flavor to stages and matches by clever ideas and prop usage (followed by a drag race). 

 

Hell on Wheels is on the someday list - hopefully soon.

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1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

That's not my understanding. For instance, if stage instruction says begin in doorway touching frame, it doesn't give you permission to be knealing in a runners 3 point stance in the doorway.

The SASS default is

"Standing upright, hands at sides - not touching firearms or ammunition""

 

It is a "complete" instruction requiring TWO required physical components.

Upright body position with hands positioned at sides.

And ONE action forbidden ie touching firearms or ammo.

 

Take any component OUT of the instruction or ADD in any differing component; prop touching, firearm handling or otherwise - and the default position has been compromised and impossible to adhere to any further.

 

A three legged stool with a leg removed is no longer a stool. 

And is no longer usable as such.

 

The SASS default with a component removed is no longer a default.

And is no longer usable as such.

 

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15 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The SASS default is

"Standing upright, hands at sides - not touching firearms or ammunition""

 

It is a "complete" instruction requiring TWO required physical components.

Upright body position with hands positioned at sides.

And ONE action forbidden ie touching firearms or ammo.

 

Take any component OUT of the instruction or ADD in any differing component; prop touching, firearm handling or otherwise - and the default position has been compromised and impossible to adhere to any further.

 

A three legged stool with a leg removed is no longer a stool. 

And is no longer usable as such.

 

The SASS default with a component removed is no longer a default.

And is no longer usable as such.

 

Do you carry a thesaurus? 

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15 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The SASS default is

"Standing upright, hands at sides - not touching firearms or ammunition""

 

It is a "complete" instruction requiring TWO required physical components.

Upright body position with hands positioned at sides.

And ONE action forbidden ie touching firearms or ammo.

 

Take any component OUT of the instruction or ADD in any differing component; prop touching, firearm handling or otherwise - and the default position has been compromised and impossible to adhere to any further.

 

A three legged stool with a leg removed is no longer a stool. 

And is no longer usable as such.

 

The SASS default with a component removed is no longer a default.

And is no longer usable as such.

 

No, just because the instructions say, "begin with hands on hat brim" does not give you permission to bend and hunker down at 90° with your hat brim 6" from your rifle. The rest of you must be at sass default. I.e. standing erect. @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L has clarified regarding this but I can't seem to find it.

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41 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

That's not my understanding. For instance, if stage instruction says begin in doorway touching frame, it doesn't give you permission to be knealing in a runners 3 point stance in the doorway.

Don't read interpretations into the rules.   If the instructions state shooter standing in doorway with hands on frame, you might be right.  But, "begin in doorway< is not the same thing.  Starting with "rifle in hand", does not negate the position of having it shouldered and aimed at 1st target, nor does it negate the motion of rising it to such a point as the beep is given.  

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9 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

No, just because the instructions say, "begin with hands on hat brim" does not give you permission to bend and hunker down at 90° with your hat brim 6" from your rifle. The rest of you must be at sass default. I.e. standing erect. @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L has clarified regarding this but I can't seem to find it.

 

Quote

Standing upright: If shooter is to start with hands on hat or other stance, they must remain standing upright until after the beep, unless stage instructions indicate otherwise.

Example: Just because the scenario states to point 1 hand downrange does not mean the shooter can have the other hand on the gun or bend down over the gun, unless stage instructions state otherwise. The other hand must be at SASS default, at side not touching guns and shooter must be standing upright. 
Any exceptions to the “default” position DO NOT negate the other criteria.
Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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20 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Do you carry a thesaurus? 

Usually I carry a Smith & Wesson Equalizer or Springfield Armory 1911.

 

If you're referring to my abundant and perhaps sometimes excessive wordiness - I consider myself a very literate dinosaur...

In other words; a Thesaurus Rex.  :D

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7 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Usually I carry a Smith & Wesson Equalizer or Springfield Armory 1911.

 

If you're referring to my abundant and perhaps sometimes excessive wordiness - I consider myself a very literate dinosaur...

In other words; a Thesaurus Rex.  :D

Not to get off subject. I know a couple that's having twin boys. Trying to get them to name them Smith and Wesson. 

Are twins considered  double tap?

 

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I stand corrected. 

And I will abide by the clarification.

 

But that being said; I disagree - I think the interpretation fundamentally misunderstands the concept of a grouped instruction. 

A grouped instruction is "All or nothing"; regardless of clarification - the default is worded as such.

 

I was around when the default came into being and I suffered thru all the debate and silliness at the time.

The SASS default is an instruction designed to be implemented in the complete ABSENCE of a written instruction.

It was not written to dictate nor intended to insert additional instruction to the shooters starting position.

 

Again, I will abide by the clarification.

 

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24 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I stand corrected. 

And I will abide by the clarification.

 

But that being said; I disagree - I think the interpretation fundamentally misunderstands the concept of a grouped instruction. 

A grouped instruction is "All or nothing"; regardless of clarification - the default is worded as such.

 

I was around when the default came into being and I suffered thru all the debate and silliness at the time.

The SASS default is an instruction designed to be implemented in the complete ABSENCE of a written instruction.

It was not written to dictate nor intended to insert additional instruction to the shooters starting position.

 

Again, I will abide by the clarification.

 

I dont care for the default position much either, other than it saves some wording if I want the shooter in that position. Most all of my stage instructions will say something like "Standing at shooters discretion with a hand on hat brim". This negates having to stand erect. 

A note: That does NOT do away with the firearms convention of not starting with hands touching guns or ammo. So, the other hand could be anywhere except guns or ammo.

 

Likewise if I said "starting at shooters discretion with one hand on shotgun" it wouldn't mean your other hand could be touching your shotshells because no instruction negated ammo convention. Only the firearm convention. 

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Pale Wolf has spoken - I admit I was wrong - I will abide by the clarification...

 

BUT - just to put a finer point on it; lets look at EXACTLY what the SASS default instruction states:

 

If NO starting position is given, the shooter shall stand upright with revolvers holstered, hands at the sides and not touching any firearms.

 

If NO starting position is given...

This instruction is specifically saying if ANY starting position IS given - then the default does not apply.

 

continuing

 the shooter shall stand upright with pistols holstered, hands at sides and not touching any firearms.

These are a compound (or grouped) instruction; meaning they exist together and simultaneously - the commas serve the same purpose and placement as the word AND.  None of these are standalone clauses and cannot be applied as such.

They are an "All or nothing" statement.

 

The default was by its own admission intended for use in the ABSENCE of a starting position.

It was created to regulate starting position in the event the stage writer did not.

The default was actually sold on the basis of SIMPLIFYING the stage writers job.

 

But taken as clarified - you have actually inserted and required FOUR additional separate instructions

Shooter shall stand upright

Shooter shall have pistols holstered

Shooter shall have hands at sides

Shooter shall not touch firearms

 

According to the clarification; these are each independent of the other - with each component now requiring individual adherence or a specifically negating instruction for each.

 

It may be the clarification (and yet again; I will abide) - but it was not the intention originally and it is not what the rule actually states.

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3 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Most all of my stage instructions will say something like "Standing at shooters discretion with a hand on hat brim". This negates having to stand erect. 

A note: That does NOT do away with the firearms convention of not starting with hands touching guns or ammo. So, the other hand could be anywhere except guns or ammo.

Just because I am a pedantic dog with a bone...

 

Per the clarification:

Your shooter has been negated from standing upright per your instruction - true.

 

Your shooter has received instruction regarding where their hand (singular) is located (brim of hat) but because you did not specifically provide instruction for the OTHER hand - per the default and clarification example; that uninstructed hand cannot "be anywhere except guns or ammo" - it MUST be hanging at their side.

 

This silly overly regimented requirement supports my belief that the clarification is flawed by asserting that each individual component of the default exists independently.

 

The default should be negated as soon as ANY positional instruction is offered.

 

If the stage writer chooses to not use SASS default they should not be required to add paragraphs of verbiage to specifically address and negate every variable of the SASS default requirements.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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Is winter here already???     Sometimes I throw a "pistol(s) in hand(s)" in there and I expect most will draw down on the target they are first to engage; if I want em to be doing anything else with the pistol(s), I'll tell em, i.e. "holding pistol(s) in hand(s) and grounded" and then in the notes I explain that grounded means muzzle touching table. The only thing that really does is makes everyone start in the same way. If they are instructed to have pistol(s) in hand, they can point it anywhere they want, provided its in the 170.

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How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

 

One quick point: if we interpret what’s been said on this thread as it’s written then instructions that say, pistol in hand, hands on hat, hands touching doorframe, etc., don’t negate the other SASS defaults. Correct?

 

So, shooter starts pistol(s) in hand means the other requirements still apply? Really? So my hand holding the pistol must be at my side? Which way is that pistol pointing? Straight down?

 

My rifle ‘in hands’…arms still at my sides?

 

I can already hear the responses, ‘but Bill, that only means standing upright, nobody would expect your hands to be at your sides while holding a pistol.’

 

My response: ‘show me where it says that in the rules.’

 

In that starting position it isn’t sufficient to simply say all other default requirements are still in effect.
 

 

 

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

 

One quick point: if we interpret what’s been said on this thread as it’s written then instructions that say, pistol in hand, hands on hat, hands touching doorframe, etc., don’t negate the other SASS defaults. Correct?

 

So, shooter starts pistol(s) in hand means the other requirements still apply? Really? So my hand holding the pistol must be at my side? Which way is that pistol pointing? Straight down?

 

My rifle ‘in hands’…arms still at my sides?

 

I can already hear the responses, ‘but Bill, that only means standing upright, nobody would expect your hands to be at your sides while holding a pistol.’

 

My response: ‘show me where it says that in the rules.’

 

In that starting position it isn’t sufficient to simply say all other default requirements are still in effect.
 

 

 

BB, it's been this way since about 2016. During your Q/A parts of our classes, don't you cover this?

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5 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Just because I am a pedantic dog with a bone...

 

Your shooter has received instruction regarding where their hand (singular) is located (brim of hat) but because you did not specifically provide instruction for the OTHER hand - per the default and clarification example; that uninstructed hand cannot "be anywhere except guns or ammo" - it MUST be hanging at their side.

 

 

Incorrect. The words at shooters' discretion negates the default. Its been this way for years. 

 

Have your TG bring it up at a meeting.

 

   Here is part of the problem regarding shooters getting the same match on different possies. Not all TOs know all the rules or just believe they do(not talking about you). It doesn't help when a clarification is given and then we have 2 pages of people saying it shouldn't be that way. Think about the inexperienced shooters looking at these threads for clarification. They take a look and say what the hell, which way is it? 

 

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Just now, Tennessee williams said:

Incorrect. The words at shooters' discretion negates the default. Its been this way for years. 

 

Have your TG bring it up at a meeting.

 

   Here is part of the problem regarding shooters getting the same match on different possies. Not all TOs know all the rules or just believe they do(not talking about you). It doesn't help when a clarification is given and then we have 2 pages of people saying it shouldn't be that way. Think about the inexperienced shooters looking at these threads for clarification. They take a look and say what the hell, which way is it? 

 


8 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

BB, it's been this way since about 2016. During your Q/A parts of our classes, don't you cover this?

I know it's been this way, and when I was an instructor I did cover it in classes.  That doesn't mean I think it's as clear as it could be.  That's why we get these kinds of WTC.  I'm not arguing whether other SASS defaults apply, I'm stating that those kinds of stage instructions in conjunction with the wording we use and some folk's lack of common sense leads to weirdness.  

 

 

 

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Yes...I will say it. The "Default Position" is the stoopidest thing ever!!!! All done because some thought that us Cowboy Action Shooters looked silly crouching over our guns at the beep. Whatever...like the Default position doesn't look silly and stoopid...

 

By the way, when we start with Rifle in Hands, I give the line while holding the front sight below my intended target...then move up at the beep. 

 

Moving doesn't negate the instructions listed in the OP.

 

Phantom

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Don't really care for SASS Default either, that's why I usually give the shooter another start position. If you want them to do something, tell them. If you want them to NOT do something, tell them not to. I'm not in favor of writing a book for stage instructions but ya gotta be clear or you'll see all kinds of funny stuff going on.

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12 hours ago, Assassin said:

Not to get off subject. I know a couple that's having twin boys. Trying to get them to name them Smith and Wesson. 

Are twins considered  double tap?

 

Nope, there was probably only one tap!:lol:

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I wanna THANK everyone who has posted on this thread.

 

For the record, I get as many phone calls on Sunday afternoon and Monday about 'WTC' as

there are posted on this Wire.   Don't know why.... I guess some just want to hear the sound

of my voice... :lol:

 

But anyhow, when I got this call about starting position, I was ask to post it on the Wire

because some folks in some clubs seem to deem this type movement before the 'BEEP'

as a 'P'.   And the Cowboy asking me didn't want to be identified nor the club.

 

Anyhow, I just think this was not a trivial or trifle 'WTC' and needed some 'official' comment

that will stop useless and unwarranted penalties.  

 

And a hearty "THANK YOU" to Creeker who posted some very good thoughts and comments, in which

being answered has hopefully clarified some 'default' questions for all of us.

 

And although I don't speak for PWB, I'm sure he would like for all of us to be on the same

page concerning our rules/guidelines, and the manner which we award penalties, especially

those not warranted.

 

Again..... Thanks!

 

..........Widder

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39 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

I wanna THANK everyone who has posted on this thread.

 

For the record, I get as many phone calls on Sunday afternoon and Monday about 'WTC' as

there are posted on this Wire.   Don't know why.... I guess some just want to hear the sound

of my voice... :lol:

 

But anyhow, when I got this call about starting position, I was ask to post it on the Wire

because some folks in some clubs seem to deem this type movement before the 'BEEP'

as a 'P'.   And the Cowboy asking me didn't want to be identified nor the club.

 

Anyhow, I just think this was not a trivial or trifle 'WTC' and needed some 'official' comment

that will stop useless and unwarranted penalties.  

 

And a hearty "THANK YOU" to Creeker who posted some very good thoughts and comments, in which

being answered has hopefully clarified some 'default' questions for all of us.

 

And although I don't speak for PWB, I'm sure he would like for all of us to be on the same

page concerning our rules/guidelines, and the manner which we award penalties, especially

those not warranted.

 

Again..... Thanks!

 

..........Widder

I thought it was a good question also. 

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