WTC - Unique stage, lots of discussion around appropriate call.

[Totes Magoats]

We’ll focus only on the rifle string for this. Target array is 3 pistol targets and 3 rifle targets. Rifle Instructions are put 3 rounds on each rifle target then put the 10th round on a pistol target. 
 

Shooter puts all 10 rounds on rifle targets. Spotters call a P. TO calls it a miss. 
 

Final call on paper was a miss.   Who was right? 

 

Totes

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

It's a Procedural.

No debate whatsoever.

 

Every round HIT an firearm appropriate target.  No misses.

 

Targets were NOT hit in the correct order as instructed.  Procedural.

 

[Totes Magoats]

1 minute ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

Every round HIT an firearm appropriate target.  No misses.

my take was the pistol target became the rifle target for the 10 round , therefor hitting the original rifle target was now just a miss and not a P. 
 

Totes

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

21 minutes ago, Totes Magoats said:

my take was the pistol target became the rifle target for the 10 round , therefor hitting the original rifle target was now just a miss and not a P. 
 

Totes

In this case - by instruction, all targets in this example (r and p) are designated as rifle targets.

But the pistol targets becoming rifle targets does not mean the rifle targets no longer exist.

The stage design has 3 "R" targets and 3 "R/P" targets.

 

The "Rifle/ pistol" targets (I'm assuming in this instance) were just the the target array closer to the firing line.

 

Instead of Rifle array and pistol array - it could have been written:

With rifle:  The shooter will engage the FURTHER target array with 3 rounds on each plate and THEN engage any target of the CLOSER array with 1 round.

 

For penalty clarification sake consider this - you have TWO three target rifle arrays (one array left side of the bay - other on the right side of the bay) - same instruction.

 

Engage the left side array with 3 rounds on each target and THEN engage any target on the right side array with with 1 round.

 

We would never suggest the left array disappears or stops being targets after the 9th round - just because the next round is supposed to go somewhere else.

Edited November 12 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[John Kloehr]

29 minutes ago, Totes Magoats said:

my take was the pistol target became the rifle target for the 10 round , therefor hitting the original rifle target was now just a miss and not a P. 
 

Totes

A correct target was not engaged. P.

 

On edit: Perhaps a better description is "an incorrect target was engaged."

Edited November 12 by John Kloehr

[Totes Magoats]

19 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

A correct target was not engaged. P.

Not sure this is correct. If a shooter, in a standard stage, pulls his pistols and puts all 10 rounds on rifle targets, it’s 10 misses and not a P. 
 

Totes

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

Target array is 3 pistol targets and 3 rifle targets. Rifle Instructions are put 3 rounds on each rifle target then put the 10th round on a pistol target.

 

At that point the "pistol target" becomes a "rifle target"

 

It was NOT a MISS according to the definition of a MISS.

It was a "P" under the definition of a  PROCEDURAL.

REF: SHB p.21

 

also the MISS FLOW CHART on p.40 (go down the LEFT side)

 

 

 

Edited November 12 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
add reference

[Sam Sackett]

Yep The BIG “P”!  Golly, but I hate when that happens!
 

Sam Sackett 

[High Plains Hud SASS#64232]

Thank you for the WTC question. Good example of a not everyday senerio. 

[Show Me]

Is the TO supposed to overrule the spotters? 

[Tell Sackett SASS 18436]

3 minutes ago, Show Me said:

Is the TO supposed to overrule the spotters? 

If they’re wrong-YES!!

[Hoss]

7 minutes ago, Show Me said:

Is the TO supposed to overrule the spotters? 

TO cannot overrule spotters on misses, but TO has final say (with input from spotters) on calling a P. 

[Jim Brown]

My question would be on target placement. Did he engage the rifle target or miss the pistol target and hit the rifle target.

 

I have seen more often a miss high on pistol target hit a rifle target.  I would call miss not procedural. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

13 minutes ago, Jim Brown said:

My question would be on target placement. Did he engage the rifle target or miss the pistol target and hit the rifle target.

 

I have seen more often a miss high on pistol target hit a rifle target.  I would call miss not procedural. 

 

One more time...at that point in the OP scenario, the "pistol targets" are rifle targets...any HIT "out of order" would be a PROCEDURAL.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Totes Magoats said:

If a shooter, in a STANDARD stage, pulls his pistols and puts all 10 rounds on rifle targets, it’s 10 misses and not a P. 
 

Totes

On a "standard" stage - there are designated PISTOL targets and designated RIFLE targets.

In that example - you are correct.

A target designated as pistol struck by a rifle round (or vice versa) is a miss not a P.

In other words - pistol targets do not exist as far as rifle is concerned.

Rifle targets do not exist as far as pistol is concerned.

This rule was created for a couple reasons that I'll cover in a moment.

 

But in the OP - it is stated that rifle was specifically instructed to engage BOTH rifle (further) targets and PISTOL (closer) targets - the confusion is calling the closer targets, PISTOL targets - they are PISTOL/ RIFLE targets.

Meaning while the RIFLE (further) targets do not exist for the PISTOLS (any pistol round that struck one would be a miss) - the RIFLE (further) targets AND the PISTOL/ RIFLE (closer) targets both exist as options for the rifle. 

Rounds hitting ANY of these targets cannot be called as misses - ANY of these RIFLE appropriate targets struck out of order creates a P.

 

Reason(s) for the rule (gamer and otherwise):

Back in the bad old days - rifle targets "were sometimes" set a ways out - it was faster to engage the PISTOL targets and earn a P than to slow down or eat misses going after distant rifle targets.

A shooter eating 50 seconds worth of miss penalties stops that behavior quickly.

 

The other reason is simply because of the realities of target setting; stand limitations and the requirement to provide for a CLEAN MISS.

Sometimes targets are set poorly; sometimes a club lacks height differentiation stands and sometimes an array that looked good on paper doesn't translate to real life.

In these instances - an errant pistol round may miss pistol steel and strike rifle steel or vice versa thru no fault of the shooter.

Previously this would incur a P for the strike on the "wrong" target - but this was unfair to penalize the shooter for (what is supposed to be an error or brainfade penalty) which was in actuality the fault of the target setters or match director.  i.e. not allowing for a clean miss.

Now the shooter actually is awarded the penalty that they earned which is the miss on the firearm appropriate target.