WBAS Rule changes

[Artemus Von Schutze]

I have been entirely passive on allowing .38 rifles in WB. I just don't think they are faster, and either way I'll continue to shoot .45 in cowboy and WB because it's what I enjoy. If this brings people in great. A big part of the ask that brought about changes to WB, was growing membership in SASS as a whole. I understood the argument that allowing cowboy shooters to bring their 38s to start shooting WB did not grow SASS so much as grow WB. 

 

Adding in Teddy Roosevelt and Doughboy as Main match categories is the part that really excites me as this allows a much lower cost to entry for people to new to SASS altogether. 

[Fireball #7709 Life]

Without joining another forum, is there a place to see this "email"/rule change?  It's frustrating to randomly hear about rule changes.

 

[Eyesa Horg]

2 minutes ago, Artemus Von Schutze said:

Adding in Teddy Roosevelt and Doughboy as Main match categories is the part that really excites me as this allows a much lower cost to entry for people to new to SASS altogether. 

I apologize for my ignorance, what are Teddy & Doughboy by comparison to what I've seen in WB side matches. I do have a club local to me that has WB matches during the summer.

[Flying W Ramrod]

10 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

Hope so, they’ve always excluded 16 gauge for some reason.

Don't tell El Lazo that. He's been shooting one for decades.

[Eyesa Horg]

Just now, Fireball #7709 Life said:

Without joining another forum, is there a place to see this "email"/rule change?  It's frustrating to randomly hear about rule changes.

 

You should have received the email from Misty as SASS member. I can't seem to copy and paste it with my phone. From what I see, nothing has changed with pistol rules as it is the main firearm. Still has the 150 PF.

[Flying W Ramrod]

10 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

All of the Wild Bunch matches I have attended have been "side" matches at a state or regional match.  They would not have paid SASS any additional revenue above the regular sanctioning fee for the main match.  I think the sanctioning fees she is referring to is probably stand alone Wild Bunch state matches or Land Run or EOT Wild Bunch championships.  There are no stand alone Wild Bunch state championships anywhere in the Southeast that I'm aware of.  

Side matches are not sponsored by SASS and receive no SASS awards. So that number should not be reflected in the dollars earned/spent categories.

 

[Totes Magoats]

I like the changes and hope it will encourage more folks to try Wild Bunch.   I do wish they would have gone ahead and allowed any barrel length .45 single stack 1911 at the State and higher matches.  That could have opened the doors a bit further, maybe a topic for after the QTR'ly evaluations.  

 

My view of WB is that it should be an "Action" match and not a long-range precision pistol match and this is how our club set up our matches.  This has helped us grow the number of members we get shooting WB and I think these new changes will help bump those numbers up even more.

 

Totes

[Totes Magoats]

11 minutes ago, Fireball #7709 Life said:

Without joining another forum, is there a place to see this "email"/rule change?  It's frustrating to randomly hear about rule changes.

 

@Fireball #7709 Life Try this link: https://files.constantcontact.com/f010f4a3201/ceebec53-3c67-40fb-9e22-03a4e81a9767.pdf 

[Fireball #7709 Life]

1 minute ago, Totes Magoats said:

 

@Fireball #7709 Life Try this link: https://files.constantcontact.com/f010f4a3201/ceebec53-3c67-40fb-9e22-03a4e81a9767.pdf 

Thank you!!

[Yul Lose]

31 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

Don't tell El Lazo that. He's been shooting one for decades.

So have I but it hasn’t been allowed in Wild Bunch.

[Captain Bill Burt]

56 minutes ago, Totes Magoats said:

I like the changes and hope it will encourage more folks to try Wild Bunch.   I do wish they would have gone ahead and allowed any barrel length .45 single stack 1911 at the State and higher matches.  That could have opened the doors a bit further, maybe a topic for after the QTR'ly evaluations.  

 

My view of WB is that it should be an "Action" match and not a long-range precision pistol match and this is how our club set up our matches.  This has helped us grow the number of members we get shooting WB and I think these new changes will help bump those numbers up even more.

 

Totes

I would like this as well.  Being able to use my Commander and shoot Modern would be nice.  Having said that, I can live with using a full size 1911.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Back in the Pre-SASS rules days of WB, I saw shooters using SxS's right along people using fully stoked 97s, and 87s, with no complaints whatsoever.  It was fun.   These are changes that are long overdue.

Now if they'd also open it up to Lugers, Broomhandles, 1917 revolvers and such, they'd be going most of the rest of the way back to what WB was before SASS "defined" it.

[Sedalia Dave]

10 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Now if they'd also open it up to Lugers, Broomhandles, 1917 revolvers and such, they'd be going most of the rest of the way back to what WB was before SASS "defined" it.

THIS^^^^

[Itchy Trigger]

2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Starting with an empty chamber 1911 is strange. 

No other gun sport requires such.......

Also goes against training and muscle memory for those that carry semiautomatic handguns daily. 

Bing, Bing, Bing

 

It is stupid to retrain/unlearn muscle memory from how you conceal carry and from other shooting competitions.

 

The lack of movement is also a detriment from practical use.

[Misty Moonshine]

11 minutes ago, Itchy Trigger said:

Bing, Bing, Bing

 

It is stupid to retrain/unlearn muscle memory from how you conceal carry and from other shooting competitions.

 

The lack of movement is also a detriment from practical use.

Starting in condition 1 was proposed by SASS to the WBROC and Ambassadors in April 2023. Below is the response we received at that time: 

"Starting with the 1911 in condition 1 (holstered cocked and locked:  The biggest concern in allowing the shooter to start in condition 1 is that we do not necessarily start the stage with the pistol.  We also do not have a training program for holster qualification.  This rule would also require a holster that completely covered the trigger.  It was agreed that allowing a start in condition 1 was going too far in WB at this time."

 

As mentioned in the action plan, ".... is imperative that Wild Bunch Action Shooting become a “game of the people”. The shooters’ voices need to be heard through their clubs by using the Territorial Governor program to represent their interests with SASS and the sport."

 

Once your local club has an elected WBTG in place, begin rallying your TG for changing the rules to include starting in Condition 1. 

 

Misty

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

I never tried WB. From regular SASS discussions I'd think that the 150 pf minimum for the 1911s eliminates a lot of people right from the start. Obviously the previous rifle caliber requirements was a huge negative to a lot of shooters. Double shooters didn't want to buy a pump. What kind of target setup and distances are people saying is too much for these matches? I assume they're using the same steel.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 minutes ago, Misty Moonshine said:

Starting in condition 1 was proposed by SASS to the WBROC and Ambassadors in April 2023. Below is the response we received at that time: 

"Starting with the 1911 in condition 1 (holstered cocked and locked:  The biggest concern in allowing the shooter to start in condition 1 is that we do not necessarily start the stage with the pistol.  We also do not have a training program for holster qualification.  This rule would also require a holster that completely covered the trigger.  It was agreed that allowing a start in condition 1 was going too far in WB at this time."

 

As mentioned in the action plan, ".... is imperative that Wild Bunch Action Shooting become a “game of the people”. The shooters’ voices need to be heard through their clubs by using the Territorial Governor program to represent their interests with SASS and the sport."

 

Once your local club has an elected WBTG in place, begin rallying your TG for changing the rules to include starting in Condition 1. 

 

Misty

Respectfully, no other gun game starts the pistol with an empty chamber, and then you have to chamber on the clock. 

Anyone with a lick of sense, carries with a chambered rnd.

PLEASE reconsider this.......

I truly believe you will get more folks to come over from modern gun sports to help WB grow. If you let's us start with a chambered round.

Maybe you could set up a poll on the forum here, and on the WB site to see what folks want.

 

[Itchy Trigger]

20 minutes ago, Misty Moonshine said:

The biggest concern in allowing the shooter to start in condition 1 is that we do not necessarily start the stage with the pistol. 

The problem with that, is the people that want that rule changed will most likely not be shooting WB or talking to a WBTG due to not wanting to change how they have trained for years and what they do everyday for their Job or in their personal life.

 

IMO only, it is little difference than a SA, either way you pull/push a piece of metal and pull the trigger whether it be a hammer or a safety. I also believe that starting in condition 1 is safer than a tactical reload which is allowed.
 

It does make sense if you assume the shooters are cowboy action only and are unfamiliar with a 1911.
 

Surprised that you didn’t already require a holster that completely covered the trigger.

Edited November 2 by Itchy Trigger

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

You could pre-stage the pistol in condition 1 

 

[Ranger Dan]

4 minutes ago, Itchy Trigger said:

The problem with that, is the people that want that rule changed will most likely not be shooting WB or talking to a WBTG due to not wanting to change how they have trained for years and what they do everyday for their Job or in their personal life.

 

IMO only, it is little difference than a SA, either way you pull/push a piece of metal and pull the trigger whether it be a hammer or a safety. It does make sense if you assume the shooters are cowboy action only and are unfamiliar with a 1911. I also believe that starting in condition 1 is safer than a tactical reload.
 

Surprised that you didn’t already require a holster that completely covered the trigger.

I get it, you don't want to have to learn a new technique. Simple solution is draw your pistol, squeze the trigger then go through your already learned FTF drill, tap rak engage.

I've shot quite a few IDPA stages where you start with an empty pistol. Pretty common actually.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Just a couple thoughts here. 
Before SASS got on the bandwagon a front range club had what was called the “Professionals”, using basically any handgun, shotgun or rifle pre-1945 design. MD used a lot of “tactical” and

“LEO” type stages some which had some longer target distances for pistol of about 12-15 yards, rifles generally about 16-20, shotguns at 10-12. A lot of fun and the matches I attended usually had 20-25 shooters. Had heard of WB coming so bought the.45 ‘73 (already had the others) and watched as the every other month professionals was replaced by the every third or fourth month WB. 

Now on the western side our TG has bent over backwards to keep WB alive but we only have maybe two or three matches per year with five or six shooters and generally the only WB match I shoot is Arizona (formerly WR now EOT). Personally I like WB, have the guns (and would shoot as is or with new rules), ammo now that I am retired is not an issue (I enjoy reloading for itself) but there are virtually no matches in my neck of the woods! What the fix is I have no idea but I will support any thing that increases shooting opportunities. 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

21 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

 

I've shot quite a few IDPA stages where you start with an empty pistol. Pretty common actually.

About as common as an on the clock reload is today in SASS. 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

29 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

About as common as an on the clock reload is today in SASS. 

Actually no. Between USPSA and IDPA unloaded starts are  common. Most matches I've shot will have one. Higher level matches with more stages may have 2 or 3. Pick up off a table, barrel or from the holster. Sometimes the magazine must also start there. 

[Fireball #7709 Life]

2 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Back in the Pre-SASS rules days of WB, I saw shooters using SxS's right along people using fully stoked 97s, and 87s, with no complaints whatsoever.  It was fun.   These are changes that are long overdue.

Now if they'd also open it up to Lugers, Broomhandles, 1917 revolvers and such, they'd be going most of the rest of the way back to what WB was before SASS "defined" it.

I also bemoaned the loss of the "other" handguns and the 1911 is not my favorite handgun,  that said,  the round counts for what is suggested doesn't work well for 6 shot revolvers,  or reloading a Broomhandle and would add significant complexity to the rules about any movement,  having the handgun empty if not shot last, what is legal leather for carrying stripper clips and moon clips,  etc. Stage times could become sundial affairs if the shooter isn't proficient with their chosen "other gun."  TO familiarity with with the 1911 can be a struggle now.  This seems like a WBTG thing to visit,  if the demand supports it, down the road.

[Griff]

For those that bemoan the loss of the "old days" of CAS, WB has had the feel (target & distance wise of CAS of the 1980s & early 1990s.  The club I occasionally get to shoot at has begun allowing the shooter to start the stage in "condition one."  So far, only a couple of months in, no incidents that I've heard of.  Condition 2 was no problem for me as that was the way we were required to stand watches in the Navy (1970s).  However, for nearly 26 years, as an LEO, and now in my EDC I do carry in condition one.  But, falling back on the prior military experience was not a problem.  I too, would like to be able to use my Commander, but never had a problem with the 5" bbl requirement.  I'm also glad to see the rifle & shotgun requirements relaxed somewhat.  However, I'll probably still shoot my Lightning, (Thanks Hoss!).  I'll probably drag along one of the .30-30s for TR on occasion.  The Texas Doughboys also have a "Bootlegger" category in which a semi-auto rifle/carbine is also legal.  We've also had stages where re-engagement of missed targets is allowed.  Yee-Haw!  More shooting!  

 

When WB first started, I didn't own a '97... and had real desire to get one, but I love the 1911 and wanted to shoot!  I'd already been using one of several .45 rifles in CAS, so that requirement didn't phase me... but I can see how it would others.  I think the changes are in the right direction...   Keeping the 1911 as the primary pistol shouldn't really be a problem as they're plentiful and even low-budget versions can be competitive with a bit of work... And it doesn't take a lot.  I have two Taylor's Tactical pistols (one should have a backup), that have simply been smoothed over and ramped to feed the 200grn RFN (same bullet I often use in cowboy), to feed reliably and for more'n 6 years, they've been flawless (as long as I remember the lube)!  

 

BTW,. what CCB didn't mention, is that the new changes take effect 1-1-24.  I highly recommend that you get to a WB match and give it a try... who knows, if you let yourself, you might actually enjoy yourself.  Even if you have to use a 1911!  

Edited November 2 by Griff

[Boggus Deal #64218]

2 hours ago, Misty Moonshine said:

Starting in condition 1 was proposed by SASS to the WBROC and Ambassadors in April 2023. Below is the response we received at that time: 

"Starting with the 1911 in condition 1 (holstered cocked and locked:  The biggest concern in allowing the shooter to start in condition 1 is that we do not necessarily start the stage with the pistol.  We also do not have a training program for holster qualification.  This rule would also require a holster that completely covered the trigger.  It was agreed that allowing a start in condition 1 was going too far in WB at this time."

 

As mentioned in the action plan, ".... is imperative that Wild Bunch Action Shooting become a “game of the people”. The shooters’ voices need to be heard through their clubs by using the Territorial Governor program to represent their interests with SASS and the sport."

 

Once your local club has an elected WBTG in place, begin rallying your TG for changing the rules to include starting in Condition 1. 

 

Misty

Actually Misty, as you know, it was proposed by the WBROC to SASS a number of years ago and was refused.

[Misty Moonshine]

10 minutes ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

Actually Misty, as you know, it was proposed by the WBROC to SASS a number of years ago and was refused.

Thanks for the clarification- I was only speaking to the most recent conversation that I personally had with the WB ROC on the subject of starting in Condition 1 and the subsequent response received. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 hours ago, Misty Moonshine said:

"Starting with the 1911 in condition 1 (holstered cocked and locked:  The biggest concern in allowing the shooter to start in condition 1 is that we do not necessarily start the stage with the pistol.  We also do not have a training program for holster qualification.  This rule would also require a holster that completely covered the trigger.  It was agreed that allowing a start in condition 1 was going too far in WB at this time."

So if the pistol is not the first firearm used on the stage...why not state that if the pistol is not the first firearms used that the shooter must come to the line with no magazine in the pistol and loading is done on the clock...during the stage...?

 

We do that in CAS with Shotguns...load on the move. Only difference is they can't cycle until the shooter gets to a point where they are static.

 

Phantom (The Rejected Regulator)

[Eliphalet R. Moderator]

21 hours ago, Itchy Trigger said:

What about 1911's? There are lots of people with only 9mm (+P) since they are widely used in other competitive sports.

 

1911 requirements are unchanged. However, as always, local Match Directors have the ability to institute changes in their matches.

[Eliphalet R. Moderator]

19 hours ago, bgavin said:

Can one participate with only a single 1911, or is a pair required?

 

A single 1911 is all you need.   And several good magazines.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, Fireball #7709 Life said:

I also bemoaned the loss of the "other" handguns and the 1911 is not my favorite handgun,  that said,  the round counts for what is suggested doesn't work well for 6 shot revolvers,  or reloading a Broomhandle and would add significant complexity to the rules about any movement,  having the handgun empty if not shot last, what is legal leather for carrying stripper clips and moon clips,  etc. Stage times could become sundial affairs if the shooter isn't proficient with their chosen "other gun."  TO familiarity with with the 1911 can be a struggle now.  This seems like a WBTG thing to visit,  if the demand supports it, down the road.

"Back in the day," when most clubs allowed these types of pistols, and the old rule of only 5 rounds in the autoloader's magazine actually made sense, there was usually a maximum of 15 rounds for the pistol.  Almost everyone carried 2 revolvers, and the most common revolver used for the reload was something that used full or half moon clips.

Some folks even carried 2 autoloaders, or 1 revolver and 1 autoloader.  I was all mix and match.   Broomhandle guys usually loaded just 5 and then used their second pistol for the rest of the needed rounds.

 

Some clubs even allowed you to use a "rifle caliber" rifle.   The general rule was is using such a gun and it could not hold 10 rounds, you'd either reload on the clock, or swap for a second staged rifle.   British SMLE's were popular for some reason.

Man, that was fun!  

Edited November 2 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

To everyone belaboring the "other shooting sports do X" point - who cares?

 

Misty has acknowledged what many of us have said for years, we are our OWN game; with our own rules and our own philosophy.

 

We are an entry level shooting game - simple firearms, simple shooting instructions, simple scoring.  This makes us accessible and ENTERTAINING to a wide array of folks; including youth, elderly and new shooters.  And to many seasoned competitors who enjoy the more relaxed atmosphere or social aspects.

 

If others wish to join us us from other sports/ disciplines or training methodologies - they are welcome with open arms.

But they will need to play OUR game.

We have no need to operate our game, set our matches or create allowances because THEY wish to transfer their practices over.

 

We are not purporting to be training, nor to be tactical and there is ZERO reason our game has to have ANY procedural overlaps (outside of safety) with any other shooting sport.

 

Face facts - trying to make Wild Bunch draw in shooters from other semi auto games failed (with power factors, high round counts and difficult matches). 

Those other disciplines still looked at the game and dismissed it as, "fat old men playing dress up".

To have some chance of survical; Misty is adjusting Wild Bunch to better appeal to the folks most likely to give it a(nother) try - Cowboys.

To do so requires a transition to Cowboy match philosophy of inclusion and entertainment over exclusion and frustration.

[Eyesa Horg]

Thumbs up to Misty for at the very least trying to do something to enhance our very fun sport. I don't yet shoot WB, but appreciate the efforts to build it. I hope to give it a try next year after I learn how to shoot my 1911. 

[Seth Bradford]

9 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Thumbs up to Misty for at the very least trying to do something to enhance our very fun sport. I don't yet shoot WB, but appreciate the efforts to build it. I hope to give it a try next year after I learn how to shoot my 1911. 

If you are in Vt, you can head down to the Circle K in Ballston Spa NY for the NYS Championship... Doc McCoy comes down from up there to shoot with us!

[Eyesa Horg]

25 minutes ago, Seth Bradford said:

If you are in Vt, you can head down to the Circle K in Ballston Spa NY for the NYS Championship... Doc McCoy comes down from up there to shoot with us!

It's on our list! Thank you!