WBAS Rule changes

[J. Frank Norfleet]

23 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

How about 16 gauge?

Says "any SASS legal shotgun."
 

 

[Hoss]

1 hour ago, Artemus Von Schutze said:

There is a lot of data that I question, given what I know for certain. 

 

However the one piece of shining light in this is adding Teddy Roosevelt and Doughboy as main match categories.

My Win 95 in 30-40 Krag gets to see daylight!   

[Seth Bradford]

2 hours ago, Renegade Roper said:

So are 38's going to be allowed at EOT 2024?

After reading the bulletin that’s what it looks like, effective 1/1/2024… looks like you can bring a few less rifles to Az this year!! 

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I've been saving up for that short stroked gamer model 73 in 45 Colt.  I guess now I can spend the money on a progressive shotgun press instead.   

[Three Foot Johnson]

[J. Frank Norfleet]

Affirmative action for cowboy shooters. Those LARPing with revolvers can LARP with a 1911.

[Sarival Slim]

8 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

I've been saving up for that short stroked gamer model 73 in 45 Colt.  I guess now I can spend the money on a progressive shotgun press instead.   

 

have one for sale

[Artemus Von Schutze]

1 hour ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

I am not a Wild Bunch shooter, but I have watched matches and had a pretty good idea of the equipment needed.  The E-Mail from SASS under shotguns mentioned 97's, and said SXS were now legal, but didn't mention the Win. model 12 which I believed was legal in WBAS.  

Am I missing something?

 

Model 12 has been and should continue to be legal unless I missed something. I don't know why they would knock a gun out while they are opening the gates for many others.

[Yul Lose]

30 minutes ago, J. Frank Norfleet said:

Says "any SASS legal shotgun."
 

 

Hope so, they’ve always excluded 16 gauge for some reason.

[Tennessee williams]

I been itching for an excuse to try it. Maybe this is it!

[Artemus Von Schutze]

Under "Sanctioning," I simply cannot accept that dollar value with out a lot more data. I was feeling deceived with the "Membership and Shooting Engagement" numbers, unless there are just way more active SASS member than I can reasonably estimate. 

 

Misty claims only $8448 has been taken in for sanctioning fees in the last 10 years! From my club alone hosting sanctioned matches from 2019-2023 I can account for at least $1,035. For state matches I have attended in OK, TX, and KS from 2020-2023 (non-inclusive of all matches, missing at least 4 state matches in this) I can account for another at least $1600 of sanction fees. Based on average shooters, those four state matches I missed, would be about $500 more. Four years, and four states have generated more than $3000. I am to believe the rest of the country, and period only accounts for $5000?

 

Edited November 2 by Artemus Von Schutze

[Artemus Von Schutze]

1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

I been itching for an excuse to try it. Maybe this is it!

 

Why didn't you try it before?

[Badlands Bob #61228]

All of the Wild Bunch matches I have attended have been "side" matches at a state or regional match.  They would not have paid SASS any additional revenue above the regular sanctioning fee for the main match.  I think the sanctioning fees she is referring to is probably stand alone Wild Bunch state matches or Land Run or EOT Wild Bunch championships.  There are no stand alone Wild Bunch state championships anywhere in the Southeast that I'm aware of.  

Edited November 2 by Badlands Bob #61228

[Badlands Bob #61228]

10 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I been itching for an excuse to try it. Maybe this is it!

Come on in.  The water's fine.

[Razorback Red]

3 hours ago, bgavin said:

Can one participate with only a single 1911, or is a pair required?

Single

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

10 minutes ago, Artemus Von Schutze said:

 

Why didn't you try it before?

Are you serious? Have you ever asked folks at Cowboy matches why they don't show WB?

 

Phantom

[Artemus Von Schutze]

3 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

All of the Wild Bunch matches I have attended have been "side" matches at a state or regional match.  They would not have paid SASS any additional revenue above the regular sanctioning fee for the main match.  I think the sanctioning fees she is referring to is probably stand alone Wild Bunch state matches or Land Run or EOT Wild Bunch championships.  There are no stand alone Wild Bunch state championships anywhere in the Southeast that I'm aware of.  

 I fully understand they are talking about state level and higher sanctioned matches as standalone matches. That is what I provided as my reference data. I have not been able to make it Louisiana, but I know they have hosted some in the past as their state match conflicted with Oklahoma's last year.  

[Artemus Von Schutze]

2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Are you serious? Have you ever asked folks at Cowboy matches why they don't show WB?

 

Phantom

 

Yes, most complain about round count. I am always baffled by that, as we all go there to matches to shoot, why wouldn't we want to shoot more?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

7 minutes ago, Artemus Von Schutze said:

 

Yes, most complain about round count. I am always baffled by that, as we all go there to matches to shoot, why wouldn't we want to shoot more?

Really? I've spoken with a lot of folks that don't play WB...including myself...and "Round Count" is not close to the top of the list.

 

Phantom

[Badlands Bob #61228]

27 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Really? I've spoken with a lot of folks that don't play WB...including myself...and "Round Count" is not close to the top of the list.

 

Phantom

Ok, Phantom.  You've been around a while and you're a pretty good CAS shooter.  What keeps you from shooting Wild Bunch?   Has Misty's rule changes made any difference in how you feel about shooting Wild Bunch?

[Artemus Von Schutze]

31 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Really? I've spoken with a lot of folks that don't play WB...including myself...and "Round Count" is not close to the top of the list.

 

Phantom

The other argument is generally about targets/clean matches, I would not contest that. That is the great part about shooting both CAS and WB is they have their own appeal. I like the different challenge that WB presents with targets. I have never gone home sad, and resolved to not return to a match because I didn't shoot clean. I like both disciplines for their own reasons. I would not want them to be identical. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

14 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

Ok, Phantom.  You've been around a while and you're a pretty good CAS shooter.  What keeps you from shooting Wild Bunch?   Has Misty's rule changes made any difference in how you feel about shooting Wild Bunch?

Don't feel like spending $2000 on another 73...stoopid "40" rule...MD's that are sadist.

 

Oh, and the silly folks that tout "Don't Cowboy my Wild Bunch".

 

And lastly, no, not if folks running matches still prefer torture tests for stages.

 

Phantom

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

17 minutes ago, Artemus Von Schutze said:

The other argument is generally about targets/clean matches, I would not contest that. That is the great part about shooting both CAS and WB is they have their own appeal. I like the different challenge that WB presents with targets. I have never gone home sad, and resolved to not return to a match because I didn't shoot clean. I like both disciplines for their own reasons. I would not want them to be identical. 

How can they be identical if they use different guns?

 

Oh...are you of the mindset of the "Don't Cowboy my Wild Bunch" crowd?

 

Phantom

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

Ok, Phantom.  You've been around a while and you're a pretty good CAS shooter.  What keeps you from shooting Wild Bunch?   Has Misty's rule changes made any difference in how you feel about shooting Wild Bunch?

Phantom has already answered - but the question is valid; so Ill give my answer to the same.

 

I have nothing against the concept of Wild Bunch - I participated in and actually won the first Wild Bunch match shot in Nevada with a borrowed pistol and rifle (Traditional).

I did not continue with Wild Bunch for the folowing reasons.

 

Prior 1911 rules:

Disallowing non standard length barrels

(I currently own 4 1911 pistols - none with a 5 inch barrel).

And the BIGGIE for me - no ambi safeties allowed (I am a LEFTY - I do not nor will I EVER own a 1911 without an ambi safety).

 

Prior Rifle rules:

I have a number of fairly nice 73 rifles (and a 66) for CAS matches

(all in 38/ 73 are 357).

I am not going to compete in any game with equipment that is subpar and I am not going to spend $1500 on a 40+ caliber rifle to use it a couple times a year.

 

Prior Match Philosophy:

WB has been operated by folks that thought CAS had become too easy and accessible - that they were going to "Fix the mistakes of cowboy action" with ridiculous target arrays and setups that were designed to create failure.

 

I applaud Misty mightily for seeing the writing on the wall regarding Wild Bunch.

And having the awareness to acknowledge that we are never going to impress the other disciplines. That setting matches for them instead of ourselves was/ is a mistake.

 

I think there will be some wiling to give WB a try or (like myself) take another look. 

But ultimately what will make the difference is, if it is fun - and I fear the current Match Directors will continue their philosophy of setting matches to "challenge the shooter" and taking a misplaced joy in the difficulty of their matches.

 

We all have thousands of dollars worth of guns and leather already - IF we had really wanted to play Wild Bunch; most of us have the capability to have acquired the "proper equipment" - most of us didn't.

 

So while I do believe lessening equipment restrictions will certainly encourage more people to give it a try.  Making it fun is the only way to get them to come back.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Don’t care for Wild Bunch never did, but carry on folks! Have fun!

[Captain Bill Burt]

Several years ago I decided to give WB a try. I own a ‘few’ 1911s, half a dozen or so ‘73s and carry a Colt Commander as my EDC, so I figured what the heck, all I need is another ‘97. Critically I had missed the rifle caliber requirement.

I bought a nice rig and purchased a CB model ‘97. Only later did I discover that none of my ‘73s were legal given they’re all chambered for .357/38 special. I also discovered that tactical reloads weren’t allowed (then).

 

I thought about it and decided that even though I could live without tactical reloads I wasn’t willing to buy another ‘73, another set of dies, powder drop, tool head, and .45 brass. So there I was with all the gear and a couple of thousand rounds of .45 ACP loaded with lead bullets.

 

Ive since shot my way through all the bullets and a few months ago traded away my CB ‘97. Much like washing my car inevitably leads to rain I’m sure trading my ‘97 is what precipitated this rule change, so you’re welcome!

 

Fortunately I still have my rig and two original Winchester 1897s, so I’m ready to play.

 

Thanks Misty!

Edited November 2 by Captain Bill Burt

[Captain Bill Burt]

9 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

I've been saving up for that short stroked gamer model 73 in 45 Colt.  I guess now I can spend the money on a progressive shotgun press instead.   

Buy a Ponsness Warren from Wabash Valley Slim. You won’t regret it.

[Cypress Sun]

8 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Really? I've spoken with a lot of folks that don't play WB...including myself...and "Round Count" is not close to the top of the list.

 

Phantom

 

Same here, I've never heard "high round count" as a reason to not shoot WB. 

 

The most common reason that I've heard is that they don't own, or won't buy, all of the firearms needed to compete in WB. Most CAS shooters owned at least one of the firearms required. The "most owned" guns were; #1 - '97, #2 - 1911 and a far distant #3 - .40 or larger rifle.

 

My reason for not shooting WB then, was that I wasn't going to spend the money on a competitive .45 rifle and reloading gear/components. I had all of the other stuff.

 

My reason for not shooting WB now is, it's dead. I don't think that beyond the WB match at the State Championship that there is any WB matches within the state of Florida. If there is, I haven't heard about them. Some clubs tried to get WB going but due to the rules at the time...mainly the .40 rifle rule...interest was low and the matches simply were sparsely attended and dried up pretty quickly.

 

At this point, I don't see WB making a comeback. I wish them luck...but I'm out. 

[Jack Spade]

9 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

I've been saving up for that short stroked gamer model 73 in 45 Colt.  I guess now I can spend the money on a progressive shotgun press instead.   

I just got my gamer 73 45 colt rifle back from Cody Conagher last week!! 

As for matches in Florida the Red Hills Rangers and Big Bend Bushwhackers in Tallahassee have been putting on a wild bunch match every quarter.  I think with the new rules we will be able to get one going once a quarter over in Holt with the Panhandle Cowboys.  Lots of interest in shooting it over there but the main complaint I always heard was about the rifle requirement.  I love shooting both and shoot wild bunch every chance I get.  No matter what you do there are always going to be people who complain but I think the new rules will allow more people to at least give wild bunch a try. 

[The Surgeon]

I'm new to Cas but the reason I haven't tried wild bunch is because of the 40 rifle and pump shotgun requirement. I already own a 1911, I do not have the interest in owning a 1897 pump and I also have no interest in buying another lever gun at the moment. I may consider trying it out now.  

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Starting with an empty chamber 1911 is strange. 

No other gun sport requires such.......

Also goes against training and muscle memory for those that carry semiautomatic handguns daily. 

[Assassin]

Most of the WB shooters are retired.

It's takes more time to load different ammo, maintain guns, find components, practice, etc,  Just not enough time regardless of equipment rules changes.

 

Then, there's the match set up, stage writing, all the logistical stuff involved.

I don't have the time. 

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Starting with an empty chamber 1911 is strange. 

No other gun sport requires such.......

Also goes against training and muscle memory for those that carry semiautomatic handguns daily. 

That’s one reason I’m glad the no tactical reload rule went away. I think I can incorporate racking the slide initially without screwing up my muscle memory. We’ll see…

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

That’s one reason I’m glad the no tactical reload rule went away. I think I can incorporate racking the slide initially without screwing up my muscle memory. We’ll see…

For me, it goes against 50+ years of training and carrying of semi-auto handguns.

No reason for that rule to even be in place.

[Captain Bill Burt]

9 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

For me, it goes against 50+ years of training and carrying of semi-auto handguns.

No reason for that rule to even be in place.

Drawing with my finger inside the trigger guard goes against my training as well (only 40+ years for me) but I do it with single action revolvers. So far it hasn’t carried over and resulted in me doing it with a 1911.