East coast vs. west coast rules question

[SHOOTIN FOX]

Overheard a conversation  this week about the sass rules. One opinion was that if the rules did not specifically allow something, then it was prohibited. The other opinion was that if the rules did not prohibit an action then it was allowed. What does the ROC say.

 

IE: staged here, shot where?

 

Fox

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Are you referring to SASS rules/conventions or open-ended/vague stage instructions?

 

 

 

Edited September 28 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
edit txt

[Scarlett]

I hear a LOT of “rules” stuff that has no basis in fact… that drives me bonkers. 
 

Hugs!

 

Scarlett

[Griff]

The only "thing", that I've seen that differed East from West, was the "Shoot in Order" thing.  More clubs east of the Mississippi seem to follow the convention that one shoots in the order you're listed on the scoresheet... whereas out west, more freedom is allowed and one shoots when there's an opening at the loading table or when you feel like shooting.  Not a rule per se... but more like a some places seem to stifle freedom.  (No, I'm not a fan of having to shoot in any particular order).

[Assassin]

Many stages are written in order to give shooters options on how to shoot a stage and where to stage guns.. Some clubs want to limit shooters and write stages that leave little to the imagination and the stage writer is delegating every move on the stage, which is no fun. Less verbiage is more, the rules are in place..

Does one really need to write "make gun safe" when it's a rule? I don't know if it's an East or West thing, perhaps an experienced stage writer vs, novice stage writer. There are some folks that must be told every move,  I believe it's confusing for some and they think it's a rules issue because they are allowed some freedom when manipulating the stage.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Some clubs have 'Sister' clubs.   They are usually a couple hours from one another and the

attendees usually shoot at those 'Sister' clubs.   And the verbiage used in the stage writing

is understood by the regular shooters.

 

Here in lies some verbiage difference:

Sister clubs may write the stage to say......."Shotgun staged on left table".   BUT..... the shooter can

determine WHERE they prefer to shoot from although its not stated in the

stage instructions.  The shooter may prefer to shoot from, the right table.   The only requirement

was to 'STAGE' the shotgun, not necessarily shoot from that position.   Shooter has options.

 

THEN..... you visit a Non-Sister club, and the stage writer says...... "Shotgun staged on left table" and

it means that is also the location you are mandated to shoot from.   The shooter has no option.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

Edited September 28 by Widder, SASS #59054

[Matthew Duncan]

If’n the rules or stage instructions don’t say you can’t then you can.  
 

 

[Cemetery]

9 hours ago, Griff said:

The only "thing", that I've seen that differed East from West, was the "Shoot in Order" thing.  More clubs east of the Mississippi seem to follow the convention that one shoots in the order you're listed on the scoresheet... whereas out west, more freedom is allowed and one shoots when there's an opening at the loading table or when you feel like shooting.  Not a rule per se... but more like a some places seem to stifle freedom.  (No, I'm not a fan of having to shoot in any particular order).

 

Thankfully in my circle of clubs/matches I go to, it's been quite a long time since I've experienced the shooting in order as listed on the scoresheets.

[Eyesa Horg]

2 hours ago, Cemetery said:

 

Thankfully in my circle of clubs/matches I go to, it's been quite a long time since I've experienced the shooting in order as listed on the scoresheets.

Same here! Only the club that I started with did it. As a new guy, it was a PIA, as I didn't know/remember all the aliases and was just one more thing to worry about. Especially if spotting and suddenly realizing that I better be at the loading table! Just more stress on a new guy! Unfortunately however, that club is no longer in existence. 

Edited September 28 by Eyesa Horg

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

When I started, there was one club that shot in order.  The first two in line at each stage moved to the bottom of the list for the next stage.  When the next shooter was announced, they also announced who was on deck and in the hole.  It worked okay.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

"Make Gun Safe" in my neck of the woods gives the shooter all the options of "where" to place guns at the end of the string.  i.e. Set the shotgun down or take it with you.  Set first pistol on prop or holster.  Set the rifle on prop or take it with you.  Options dontcha know.  Of course, if the instructions don't say "make it safe" you put it back where you got it from.  Hopefully you remember where you got it from.  

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I use "make gun safe"

Then I state name of location; shooter then knows the given firearm is to be discarded at X position.

If I just say "Make gun safe", but no location is given - then shooter knows any condition of "make safe" is acceptable.

 

I do like to use "Make safe" even if not really needed - as it "reads better" to me and ensure the instruction pertinent to that firearm is complete.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I too get a kick out of the phrase, "make gun safe."  As noted, if you don't write that, does it mean to do something unsafe?

But as Creeker and others noted, the phrase has become "code" for allowing flexibility of where to place the empty gun.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I quit writing in “make safe”.  And I’ll only write restage at X if that’s what I require.  Everyone knows you have to make your guns safe after use.  If I want folks to shoot from a specific location, I write that in.  Otherwise they can shoot from wherever suits them best.

[SHOOTIN FOX]

The discussion was about the SASS rules in general. 

Ie, stage shotgun at x. No specific place stated to shoot it. Again the question, permissive or prohibited language. 

 

If the rule does not prohibit something, it is allowed.

 

If the rule does not say you can, it is prohibiter.

 

That is the question about the intent of the rules. .

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

If I want a firearm at a specific location - Generally; I will have you stage the firearm there.

 

IF I want you to specifically stage "here" but specifically shoot "there" -

I will either say exactly that

OR

I will "Barrier" or "View Block" the firearm appropriate targets so you cannot see the targets UNTIL you are in an appropriate position to engage them

OR

by use of prop/ markers - use a "Rounds must pass the LEFT (or right as applicable) side of the prop/ marker.

 

IF I fail to provide such instruction - AND assuming it can be done safely (in accordance with SASS conventions and any range specific rules) - you can engage the firearm appropriate targets as you see fit.

[Tennessee williams]

2 hours ago, SHOOTIN FOX said:

The discussion was about the SASS rules in general. 

Ie, stage shotgun at x. No specific place stated to shoot it. Again the question, permissive or prohibited language. 

 

If the rule does not prohibit something, it is allowed.

 

If the rule does not say you can, it is prohibiter.

 

That is the question about the intent of the rules. .

 

   I've never seen instructions that said "don't cheat".

   So much depends on the stagewriter AND from club to club AND on the knowledge of the person making the call. Just because one set of TO's and spotters doesn't know something is prohibited in the SHB or RO course or in a clarification, doesn't mean it's not prohibited. And vice versa. Just because someone says "you can't do that" doesn't make it so. I think we have a pretty good SHB but it takes actually reading it and knowing how to find the answer you're looking for. I lean pretty heavy on giving a shooter options. It let's brains and experience compete with athleticism. Most people tend to enjoy it that way, but there's people that like to be told every move to make. Nothing wrong with that, it's what they like.

  To me, if they follow the instructions I give and all the various rules and covenants then they're good to go. For example, if I say "start holding shotgun in hand." I said hand, not hands. That means you can hold it in one hand instead of two. That does not mean your other hand can be touching your sg ammo even though I didn't say you couldn't. In ammo covenants, pg 26 or 27 it says A shooter may not start a stage with ammunition in hand.

  

  

 

[watab kid]

all i have to say is SCARLETT is RIGHT 

[Assassin]

We write scenarios "assuming" shooters know the rules.  If we want to dictate every move and shot, shooters will be very unhappy with 6 stand and deliver stages. I would stay home and paint or finish concrete before going.

[Rancho Roy]

On 9/27/2023 at 11:10 PM, Griff said:

The only "thing", that I've seen that differed East from West, was the "Shoot in Order" thing.  More clubs east of the Mississippi seem to follow the convention that one shoots in the order you're listed on the scoresheet... whereas out west, more freedom is allowed and one shoots when there's an opening at the loading table or when you feel like shooting.  Not a rule per se... but more like a some places seem to stifle freedom.  (No, I'm not a fan of having to shoot in any particular order).

I live in the East and have been shooting for 14 years. I shoot from Georgia to Maine to PA to Kentucky and everywhere in between, just about every week......Never been to a shoot where we shot in order of score sheet....Never.

[Hawkeye Kid]

Roy you just don’t get out enough. Some PMs will ask shoot in order or when ready. Most of the time when ready wins.

[Tequila Shooter]

@SHOOTIN FOX since I live right on the border of SE and SW regions I shoot in both.  I haven’t seen the allowed/not allowed scenario that you mentioned, at least not yet.  I think it’s more of knowing the stage writers vs. a club that you don’t know who wrote the stage.  Each club seems to get into a groove of how the stages are written, often taking questions that will be asked into account. 

 

@Tennessee williams the stage written the way you posted “That does not mean your other hand can be touching your sg ammo even though I didn't say you couldn't. In ammo covenants, pg 26 or 27 it says A shooter may not start a stage with ammunition in hand.“  can start a whole WTC discussion, which I think is what Shootin Fox was getting at.  Is having your fingers resting on the top of the shells “ammunition in hand”?   I can see a lot of questions coming up.  

[SHOOTIN FOX]

Thanks Tequila. Good shooting with you at Comin  at cha. That is another example.