Competition compromises

[Cockney Rebel]

I am looking to get back to shooting SASS matches but I keep hearing folks around me say that many clubs are compromising the cowboy aspects (relaxed dress code, no line to say etc).

is this common across the country? 
 

I got into this for the historical aspect as much as the shooting.

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

I don't think so. At least not the four clubs around me that I shoot at. I've done a lot of different competitive shooting in my life. One thing that you can count on no matter what are the die hards who have to micro manage everyone else, and then offer no assistance to newbies, because they "might beat me someday", although I haven't found that attitude so much in cowboy action which is why I keep doing it. The monthly clubs I shoot at have great participants who would give you the shirt off their back, and generaly follow the cowboy spirit of the game. Many monthly clubs here have adapted somewhat with the allowing of a class for .22 rifle/pistols, allowing boots/shoes not exactly up to the rules but needed because of physical conditions. In the heat of the summer clubs around here allow a relaxed dress code in July & August such as a short sleeve shirt and/or shorts, but you still have to have toed shoes. I wouldn't call that compromised. Sure state & national matches need to follow the rules, but monthly matches can be more flexible.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Why don't you attend a few shoots and see for yourownself?  

[Cockney Rebel]

Oh I plan to and I acknowledge that what I hear is other people’s perspectives.

[Black Hills Barb]

I think the vast majority of clubs and the vast majority of shooters are NOT compromising the cowboy aspects of the game.  Yes, in the extreme heat of summer some clubs offer a relaxed dress code and some will call their match a Magnum PI match etc.  Again, there are still many shooters that opt to still dress in cowboy attire at those matches.  The ammo issues were hard on the wallets and many clubs offer a 22 class for everyone, too.  However, the majority of shooters still shoot their match calibers.  But, all state level and above matches go by the handbook all the way.  
Welcome back!

[Cockney Rebel]

Well I intend to attend the WV state match in September to observe.  I am not judging anyone or any club based on other folks opinions, just seeing what folks perspectives are here.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I understand your concerns, but I ain't so sure that remembering a line from a Hollywood movie script

has much historical aspect.

 

..........Widder

 

[Lucky R. K.]

Our local club has relaxed the dress code temporally because of the extremely hot weather we are having. Most of our shooters are older and we would not like to see a rash of heat stroke. 

Lucky 

[Cypress Sun]

2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

I understand your concerns, but I ain't so sure that remembering a line from a Hollywood movie script

has much historical aspect.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Neither does a blue plastic timer or gun carts. Few cowboys owned a rifle, shotgun and two pistols...let alone get into six scripted gunfights in one day.

 

 

To the OP - A few clubs in Florida have a "relaxed" dress for the summer. This is to help keep the attendance up and keep the attendees from dying due to heat related problems. A few club matches still have starting lines and all large matches do also. If they don't have a starting line, nothing prevents anyone from saying one of their choosing.

 

Keep in mind that SASS/CAS is NOT for historical reenactments or some type of "reliving" the old west...it's for fun and fellowship with like minded people.

Edited August 21 by Cypress Sun

[Anvil Al #59168]

Most clubs around here in Texas relax the dress code in the summer. It's been around 104-108.

 

We have lines to say. But it's not a requirement to say them. But most do. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

4 hours ago, Cockney Rebel said:

I am looking to get back to shooting SASS matches but I keep hearing folks around me say that many clubs are compromising the cowboy aspects (relaxed dress code, no line to say etc).

is this common across the country? 
 

I got into this for the historical aspect as much as the shooting.

 

All the clubs around here have always had a starting line.  Some stages have a "story" to be read before the scenario, some don't.  Sometimes there is a story but it doesn't get read.  Very often shooters will change the starting line.  Some folks always say the exact same line (Let'er buck, Let's Go, etc).  I tend to try to make the starting line more humorous.  But there has to be a starting line of some sort before the beep.

 

In the hot summer, some clubs around here do relax the dress code.   I don't particularly care for it (my motto: it's more important to look good than shoot good), but it doesn't keep me from going to matches.  During the rest of the year, the biggest dress code faux pas is footwear.  I know some people will say they have problem feet and athletic shoes are the only things they can wear.  I don't argue the point and choose to ignore it.  After ignoring "summer dress" for a few months, it is easier to ignore the footwear for the rest of the year, and it is only a few people.  Just my opinion.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

9 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

I understand your concerns, but I ain't so sure that remembering a line from a Hollywood movie script

has much historical aspect.

 

..........Widder

 

I agree the start lines often don't have a lot to do with history, often being the only thing a stage writer could come up with.  Some are good for a laugh - like the Halloween match I saw where shooters held up a witches broom and said, "of course I can drive a stick".  Laughs are a good thing in our matches!  You didn't indicate if you object to the start lines or like them, so pls understand that I'm not directing this to you.  Your remark struck a chord for me.  My comment relates mostly to the OP. 

 

  But there is another side to start lines.  They were included in our game/sport for a reason.  The SHB calls out "... refusal to say a line..."  as an explicit example of a SOG violation.  

 

I shoot with several experienced and accomplished/championship shooters who are used to getting away with robotically saying "shooter ready" at every stage, while everyone else is expected to make an effort to say the start line, briefly interrupting their focus and concentration on the stage course of fire and transitions. Many other shooters, including myself, see refusal to say/approximate the line as taking unfair competitive advantage.   That matters in close matches. 

 

When I'm running the timer, I do not call the SOG violation.  Rather I wait quietly for the shooter to say the line as published in the stage direction.  If the shooter asks about the delay, I tell them I'm still waiting for the proper line.  But I see other Timer Operators letting them take advantage uninhibited. 

 

(Most clubs where I shoot post the line at the starting positions, so memory doesn't really become a factor. )

 

To be fair competition, the same set of rules must be applied to everybody, regardless of how well known or accomplished they may be.   It's a part of the game and was created for a purpose.

If the consensus is to get rid of that aspect, that's fine.  Many people would miss it.  Stage writers would probably rejoice. 

 

Edited August 21 by Dusty Devil Dale

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

The starting line exists to allow the shooter to signify they are ready.

It keeps the TO from asking "Is the shooter ready?" and bothering the shooter during their firearms staging and positioning.

 

If anyone refused to start the timer because I didn't say the start line to their satisfaction...

I would have another TO on the line pretty quickly.

 

And if that occurred at a shoot I was responsible for - that person would never touch a timer at my shoots ever again.

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

9 hours ago, Cockney Rebel said:

Well I intend to attend the WV state match in September to observe.  I am not judging anyone or any club based on other folks opinions, just seeing what folks perspectives are here.

Unless there have been changes the WV St Championship is pretty old school.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

31 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The starting line exists to allow the shooter to signify they are ready.

It keeps the TO from asking "Is the shooter ready?" and bothering the shooter during their firearms staging and positioning.

 

If anyone refused to start the timer because I didn't say the start line to their satisfaction...

I would have another TO on the line pretty quickly.

 

And if that occurred at a shoot I was responsible for - that person would never touch a timer at my shoots ever again.

I agree that the line signifies when ready, but there are reasons why the rule authors  didnt simply be nonspecific or use "ready" for every stage, as in other shooting sports.  And there must have been a reason why they made failure to make an effort to say the line a major (30 sec) violation.   I wasn't there so I won't represent myself as all-knowing, but the original Rules Committee appears to have been looking for more than simply informing the TO that we are ready.  

  

The T.O. (and all other responsible match officials) are expected to assure that the SASS rules are followed by everybody, so shooters have a level playing field. 

 

My pausing/coaching, as I described, is a pretty inoffensive way to make the point, without any penalties.   Alternatively, as a T.O. I would need to assign a SOG violation, per the explicit rules.   If we don't like those circumstances we should change the rules as written, but apply the same standards to EVERYONE.  It's about fair play, not T.O. chest pounding or being a hard a$$.  

 

No need to take offense.  If you simply say the lines properly and follow the other stage instructions, there won't be any conflicts warranting either of us leaving, and the two of us should get along just fine.  Looking forward to it!

Edited August 21 by Dusty Devil Dale

[Captain Bill Burt]

49 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I agree the start lines often don't have a lot to do with history, often being the only thing a stage writer could come up with.  Some are good for a laugh - like the Halloween match I saw where shooters held up a witches broom and said, "of course I can drive a stick".  Laughs are a good thing in our matches!  You didn't indicate if you object to the start lines or like them, so pls understand that I'm not directing this to you.  Your remark struck a chord for me.  My comment relates mostly to the OP. 

 

  But there is another side to start lines.  They were included in our game/sport for a reason.  The SHB calls out "... refusal to say a line..."  as an explicit example of a SOG violation.  

 

I shoot with several experienced and accomplished/championship shooters who are used to getting away with robotically saying "shooter ready" at every stage, while everyone else is expected to make an effort to say the start line, briefly interrupting their focus and concentration on the stage course of fire and transitions. Many other shooters, including myself, see refusal to say/approximate the line as taking unfair competitive advantage.   That matters in close matches. 

 

When I'm running the timer, I do not call the SOG violation.  Rather I wait quietly for the shooter to say the line as published in the stage direction.  If the shooter asks about the delay, I tell them I'm still waiting for the proper line.  But I see other Timer Operators letting them take advantage uninhibited. 

 

(Most clubs where I shoot post the line at the starting positions, so memory doesn't really become a factor. )

 

To be fair competition, the same set of rules must be applied to everybody, regardless of how well known or accomplished they may be.   It's a part of the game and was created for a purpose.

If the consensus is to get rid of that aspect, that's fine.  Many people would miss it.  Stage writers would probably rejoice. 

 

Where in the SHB does it say this?

[Cypress Sun]

4 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I agree that the line signifies when ready, but there are reasons why the rule authors  didnt simply be nonspecific or use "ready" for every stage, as in other shooting sports.  And there must have been a reason why they made failure to make an effort to say the line a major (30 sec) violation.   I wasn't there so I won't represent myself as all-knowing, but the original Rules Committee appears to have been looking for more than simply informing the TO that we are ready.  

  

The T.O. (and all other responsible match officials) are expected to assure that the SASS rules are followed by everybody, so shooters have a level playing field. 

 

My pausing/coaching, as I described, is a pretty inoffensive way to make the point, without any penalties.   Alternatively, as a T.O. I would need to assign a SOG violation, per the explicit rules.   If we don't like those circumstances we should change the rules as written, but apply the same standards to EVERYONE.  It's about fair play, not T.O. chest pounding or being a hard a$$.  

 

No need to take offense.  If you simply say the lines properly and follow the other stage instructions, there won't be any conflicts warranting either of us leaving, and the two of us should get along just fine.  Looking forward to it!

 

How exactly does adlibbing a starting line or saying "shooter ready" create an uneven playing field?

 

If the starting line is Train's coming and I change it to Train wreck coming...I should get a SOG? 

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Start lines, to me, help set a tone for the stage and indicate the shooter is ready.  However, if a shooter doesn't want to say it and just says, "Shooter ready." that's their business.  As a TO at least I know they are ready.  As for me, I will always say it or at least something like it.

 

Possum

[Captain Bill Burt]

If I can't remember the line I usually just say "I work for Mel Brooks" or "Are you going to pull those pistols or whistle Dixie".  Thirteen years and counting and I've never seen anyone pick up a penalty for not saying the line correctly, or for saying "Shooter Ready".  As @Cypress Sunpointed out, there's no competitive advantage to not saying the line, so I don't see how there's a penalty.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

8 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Where in the SHB does it say this?

Kind of wondered that myself.

There are 47 instances of the term "Line" within the SHB - Not a single instance saying anything about starting line.

 

The closest example would a "Failure to engage" of not attempting a non shooting activity as writen in the stage description.

 

But MY understanding of that - is that was a failure to "Stab the dummy" or "rope the steer" by simply discarding the required element instead of "attempting the task" to gain a competitive edge.

 

I read nothing - nor have ever heard anything that leads me to believe its intent was to dictate saying the line verbatim.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

2 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

How exactly does adlibbing a starting line or saying "shooter ready" create an uneven playing field?

 

If the starting line is Train's coming and I change it to Train wreck coming...I should get a SOG? 

No.  Don't overplay or put words into my mouth. . 

 Any reasonable attempt at the line, or creative approximation is OK and welcome with any T.O. I've ever known.   Creative  approximations to the lines are common and  many are pretty entertaining.  

 

 But saying "shooter ready" at every stage in every match is not OK.  That  gives you an easier path through the matches than the other shooters who are expected to follow ALL of the stage instructions. 

 

Again, I didn't write the rules, but I do associate very closely with friends who were original SASS Rules Committee members.  My pause/coach approach was their recommendation, andhwhat I've watched them repeatedly do.  It was also the advice given in response to questions aaked at my latest ROII course. 

Again, change the rule if it's important to you, but let's require the same things of all shooters and not play favorites by allowing corner cutting.  

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

4 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Again, change the rule if it's important to you, but let's require the same things of all shooters and not play favorites by allowing corner cutting.  

I just went thru the rulebook - where is this rule?

[Dusty Devil Dale]

18 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

If I can't remember the line I usually just say "I work for Mel Brooks" or "Are you going to pull those pistols or whistle Dixie".  Thirteen years and counting and I've never seen anyone pick up a penalty for not saying the line correctly, or for saying "Shooter Ready".  As @Cypress Sunpointed out, there's no competitive advantage to not saying the line, so I don't see how there's a penalty.

Capt, Pls remember that the top ranks of our matches are sometimes separated by fractions of seconds.  Interrupting one person's focus to say a reasonable start line (like your first two examples) v. not requiring it of others seems to me to be a differential time factor at that level of competition; particularly in a sport where focus and rapidly remembering a course of fire on top of transitioning plans is such a big part of the competition. 

 

Like you,  I never have seen a SOG penalty of any kind assessed, so there is obviously a lot of flex, as there needs to be.  But following the stage instructions seems like an easy thing to expect --otherwise, let's  just write all the stages to require "ready" as the start line.   Easy enough.  

Edited August 21 by Dusty Devil Dale

[John Kloehr]

I find the line an aid to imprinting the shooting pattern. Does not always work. And if I forget the line, I'll ad-lib something.

 

I try to make my error humorous/random. "You ain't gonna hold no dog with that story." "Where I come, details sorta matter sometimes."

 

If I can't remember the line, I'm probably going to get a P.

 

But no, no "Shooter ready!." That is for Steel Challenge and such. The line in this sport is part of the fun and mental challenge.

Edited August 21 by John Kloehr
I will find Otto and I will make him rue the day he "fixed" my writing. I will make home rue it twice dammit!

[Dusty Devil Dale]

6 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I just went thru the rulebook - where is this rule?

Look at the front under Spirit of the Game.

[Cypress Sun]

16 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

No.  Don't overplay or put words into my mouth. . 

 

 

41 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 

  If you simply say the lines properly and follow the other stage instructions, there won't be any conflicts warranting either of us leaving, and the two of us should get along just fine.  Looking forward to it!

 

Your words Dale, not mine.

[Captain Bill Burt]

29 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Look at the front under Spirit of the Game.

You put “refusal to say a line” in quotes and cited SOG. Page number please?

1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I agree the start lines often don't have a lot to do with history, often being the only thing a stage writer could come up with.  Some are good for a laugh - like the Halloween match I saw where shooters held up a witches broom and said, "of course I can drive a stick".  Laughs are a good thing in our matches!  You didn't indicate if you object to the start lines or like them, so pls understand that I'm not directing this to you.  Your remark struck a chord for me.  My comment relates mostly to the OP. 

 

  But there is another side to start lines.  They were included in our game/sport for a reason.  The SHB calls out "... refusal to say a line..."  as an explicit example of a SOG violation.  

 

I shoot with several experienced and accomplished/championship shooters who are used to getting away with robotically saying "shooter ready" at every stage, while everyone else is expected to make an effort to say the start line, briefly interrupting their focus and concentration on the stage course of fire and transitions. Many other shooters, including myself, see refusal to say/approximate the line as taking unfair competitive advantage.   That matters in close matches. 

 

When I'm running the timer, I do not call the SOG violation.  Rather I wait quietly for the shooter to say the line as published in the stage direction.  If the shooter asks about the delay, I tell them I'm still waiting for the proper line.  But I see other Timer Operators letting them take advantage uninhibited. 

 

(Most clubs where I shoot post the line at the starting positions, so memory doesn't really become a factor. )

 

To be fair competition, the same set of rules must be applied to everybody, regardless of how well known or accomplished they may be.   It's a part of the game and was created for a purpose.

If the consensus is to get rid of that aspect, that's fine.  Many people would miss it.  Stage writers would probably rejoice. 

 

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

30 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Look at the front under Spirit of the Game.

What the heck does this mean?  Front of what?  If you are talking about the rule book cite a page and paragraph.  SOG's are not addressed in the rule book until page 23.  Is that the front?

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

Time for one of my favorite anecdotes. I was at a St Championship and for whatever reason we got started saying “these pretzels are making me thirsty” as our starting line. Some old bitty complained claiming this was giving us an unfair advantage. The MD told us if we used that line one more time we would get a SOG. Of course we complied, but every so often if you shoot with me you hear the line from a Seinfeld episode. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

3 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Time for one of my favorite anecdotes. I was at a St Championship and for whatever reason we got started saying “these pretzels are making me thirsty” as our starting line. Some old bitty complained claiming this was giving us an unfair advantage. The MD told us if we used that line one more time we would get a SOG. Of course we complied, but every so often if you shoot with me you hear the line from a Seinfeld episode. 

I think it would have been close to impossible for me not to either use that line again or use a different Seinfeld line. 

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think it would have been close to impossible for me not to either use that line again or use a different Seinfeld line. 

We were saying it a different way each time just to stay true to the episode. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Darn, I can't believe I started a ruckus and somehow didn't get TN Williams involved.  

 

Anyhow, my favorite line that I quote, whenever I forget the OFFICIAL starting line, is from Shane"

"You're a Low Down Yankee Liar".

 

If that earns me a SOG,  I'll whistle Dixie in the key of C.

 

..........Widder

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Dale is saying that not saying the line is contrary to SOG by attempting a competitive advantage.

 

BUT I don't believe the definition of SOG supports his argument. 

SOG applies to actions AFTER the beep - that might be taken to mimimize the effect of an error (i.e. dumping rounds after earning a P).

 

The only other thing that could be (wrongly) applied is Failure To Engage.

I.e refusing to perform a non shooting activity on the clock.

But again; this is a penalty that only applies AFTER the beep.

 

As far as I can recall - other than safety/ loading/ unloading related and interpersonal conflicts - there are no penalties for anything outside the time beep to beep.

 

IF the timer is following procedure - regardless of the shooter signifying ready by saying,

"It's a hell of a thing killing a man - taking away everything he has or will ever have".

or

"Shooter ready"

or

"Yabba dabba doo"

 

The timer "should" follow that by

"Shooters ready - Standby"...

BEEP.

 

There is no time or focus advantage to any of the above.

No advantage - no penalty.

[CASS, Singing Hills Ranch]

2 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Unless there have been changes the WV St Championship is pretty old school.

"Changes, we don't need no stinking changes!"  We dug the stage lanes out 30 years ago when we were younger and now we are pretty old to move them in closer. LOL.  Changes are few and far between. As far as starting lines, Walker Colt always has good ones. 

Still time to send your Showdown applications in for 9/22-24  

Shoot in the shade and you only walk uphill half the time. 

[Mustang Gregg]

Here at the Lancaster County Bounty Collection Agency at Firth, NE, we still do it pretty old school.

At least one or two of the Saturday stages have some corny cowboy props to do something with. 

And when I write stages, I still use a "line" to get started.  Not all say it though. 

We usually have a stage with a bonus too.