97 Winchester Action will not open

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

 Yesterday my better half was shooting her 97. After her second round the action would not close. After the stage I noticed the small pin above the trigger was half way out. Pushed it back in and close the action. Now the action is closed tight and will not open. I tried pulling the hammer back, pulling it and working the forearm nothing. Pushing the release button nothing happens. It is a take-down model. Does anyone have an idea how I can open the action so it can be taken apart??

Any help would be appreciated

Thanks

Nawlins

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Firmly push the forearm forward and then try to pull back.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Crowbar??

[Cypress Sun]

Along with OLG's advise, try pushing the bolt forward until it is all the way into battery and push the carrier up from the bottom.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

I'm not sure what the problem is, but there are a number of videos and old posts available, which might help.  Try typing in "Winchester 1897 locked up" on the browser.  Good luck.

[Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646]

Mine gets like that when the hook pin in the bolt shears the pin

 

Imis

[Rough 'N Ready Rob]

Be sure the hammer is down, if in safety noch gun won't open.

[Dead Eye Jake]

Mine did that.  The action hook pin was sheared.  Replaced it and back in business.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

IF it is the action hook pin there are competition grade replacements available.

 

https://pvgunworks.com/product/winchester-189797-hardened-hook-screw/

 

https://the-online-outpost-licensing-corporation.myshopify.com/products/copy-of-1897-winchester-norinco-iac-shotgun-action-slide-hook-screw-by-the-smith-shop-97

[Yul Lose]

Well if it is indeed a broken hook screw and you can’t get the bolt out you may have to do as I did on one of my numerous 1897’s. After a few conversations with Jim Bowie at The Cowboys and Indians store I did as he suggested and drilled a 5/16” hole on the left side of the receiver and drove the end of the hook screw out with a punch, actually it was just a lite nudge once the hole was drilled. I had tried everything to try and get the end of that broken screw out without success. Once it was out the hook and bolt came right out. I’ve been asked about that extra hole  at the loading and unloading table a few times and after explaining why it’s there they want to know where they can get a hardened hook screw. I replaced all of the hook screws in my 1897’s with the ones from the Smith Shop, that Larsen references above. In the one picture you can see the end of the hook screw through the hole. There’s also a few pictures of the bolt, hook and hook screw.

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

7 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

Along with OLG's advise, try pushing the bolt forward until it is all the way into battery and push the carrier up from the bottom.

 The bolt is already in battery . All I can do is cock the hammer and pull the trigger. Nothing else in the action  or the fore arm moves.

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

Does it still feel like it has good hammer spring tension? Sometimes if the mainspring screw is ran loose to get a lighter feeling action the screw can back out and lock gun up or let the mainspring pull out of position (some mainspring don't have much of a groove for the retaining pin) and lock up gun.

Disassembly required. 

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

 It has good hammer spring tension. It's a take down model and I can't open the action. Is there a way to disassemble it with opening the action?

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

The barrel and tube should still come off. If it does, see if you can use a small non marring tool between the bolt and carrier to drop the carrier and free the bolt.

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

Thanks.  The locked up one has the push button (Bad_97) and the spare has a screw (Good_97).  I am not very familiar with different styles of 97s, so is there a reason why one has a push button and the other has a screw?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

29 minutes ago, Nawlins Kid SASS #36107 said:

I am not very familiar with different styles of 97s, so is there a reason why one has a push button and the other has a screw?

 

The Winchester Model 97 was in production for 60 years.  During that time there were numerous refinements during production.  Major refinements were designated by a "C", "D" or "E" stamped above the serial number.  On the one with the screw its serial number should be below the one with the button as the button is a later refinement.

 

Oh, the button allows the magazine to be emptied without cycling the action.

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

Thanks

[Stump Water]

9 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Firmly push the forearm forward and then try to pull back.

 

'97s have this unique feature... you stop the slide travel a nano-meter short of completely home and try to start rearward and it locks up like this.  OLG said "firmly push".  You gotta push like he__.  One time I had to put the muzzle on the ground (on a board) and put full body weight into it before the slide would "snap" that final nano-meter forward.  I've seen it happen to shooters of all walks.

 

YMMV.

[Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407]

It could also be the bolt not being all the way forward.

 

If the gun is known to be unloaded,

aim gun in safe direction.

 

Cock hammer.

 

Using a non marring hammer hit the rear of the bolt.

 

Pull trigger and rack as you normally would.

 

I actually used to carry a rawhide hammer in my guncart for exactly this issue when 1897’s were more popular.

[Renegade Plowboy]

14 hours ago, Nawlins Kid SASS #36107 said:

Thanks.  The locked up one has the push button (Bad_97) and the spare has a screw (Good_97).  I am not very familiar with different styles of 97s, so is there a reason why one has a push button and the other has a screw?

1) The top gun the carrier is not up far enough. Compare it to the lower and you’ll see the difference. 

2) make sure the bogered up flat head screw on the side of the bolt that you see through the ejection port is tight, and also is not contacting the ejection port. I have experienced this screw coming loose and it locking up the 97 a couple times, as well as a fellow shooters 97.  It looks to me by the pictures that the bogered up flat head screw in the top gun is loose and backed out just enough to interfere and is what has caused your lockup. 

 

 

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

7 hours ago, Renegade Plowboy said:

1) The top gun the carrier is not up far enough. Compare it to the lower and you’ll see the difference. 

2) make sure the bogered up flat head screw on the side of the bolt that you see through the ejection port is tight, and also is not contacting the ejection port. I have experienced this screw coming loose and it locking up the 87 a couple times, as well as a fellow shooters 97.  It looks to me by the pictures that the bogered up flat head screw in the top gun is loose and backed out just enough to interfere and is what has caused your lockup. 

 

 

 You were right about the screw and I tighten it. I finally got the action to open but it toke multiple tries pulling the trigger and really brute force to open the action. The other thing I noticed was the bolt did not move when the hammer hit the bolt.

Now that the action is opened I would need a lot of force to try to close it. Any suggestions what to look for?

[Outlaw Gambler]

A copentent gun smith 

[Renegade Plowboy]

2 hours ago, Nawlins Kid SASS #36107 said:

 You were right about the screw and I tighten it. I finally got the action to open but it toke multiple tries pulling the trigger and really brute force to open the action. The other thing I noticed was the bolt did not move when the hammer hit the bolt.

Now that the action is opened I would need a lot of force to try to close it. Any suggestions what to look for?

Glad you got it opened. Your posted pictures for comparison really helped. I’ll be honest on saying I’m pretty novice on the inner workings of a 97. If’n I’m not mistaken, Classic Old West Arms has some pretty good tutorials on YouTube or maybe his business page that might help you. Hickok45 has some great YouTube videos on it as well. However, if’n I was in your shoes at this point, I’d be looking up a competent gunsmith for the 97’s and let them do their thing. They work really well when they work. But we run them super hard so knowing what to maintain and when is key. Bonus, the last SASS shooting gunsmiths I had do some work on my guns they shared and showed me what they did so I could better maintain it myself.  Good luck! 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

7 hours ago, Nawlins Kid SASS #36107 said:

Now that the action is opened I would need a lot of force to try to close it. Any suggestions what to look for?

 

Let's get this statement ^  clarified. 

 

Have you tried to close it normally now?  Or too spooked to try? 

 

If you did try to close the action, how far did it go, and what parts were contacting other parts or the frame to make a collision that you cannot force through?

 

If you take a pic and post it where the action stops in it's travel, we can help more easily.

 

good luck, GJ

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

 The picture on the right is the action opened. The one on the left shows how far it goes it easily. From that spot up to about a 1/4 before going in full battery it starts to get harder to move the slide. If it goes in full battery I have to put it on the bench and use my full body weight on the forearm to get it to open

[Yul Lose]

Work the slide enough to where you can back the screw out that holds the hook screw. Take the hook screw out and see if it is broken, it should have a smooth machined bottom surface. Compare it to the hook screw in my picture that I posted above. If it’s much shorter the hook screw is broken and the end is lodged in the hook. If it’s broken you’ll have to figure out how to get the tip out. I had one break that the tip came out rather easily and then the one on the 97 above that I posted. Both guns were hard to open as you describe.

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

 Thanks for all of the help that was given to solve the problem !!!!

Nawlins

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Sounds as if you might have found a broken hook screw.  Might confirm for us if this was the root problem.  And if so, make sure a tool steel hardened screw is used to repair the problem.  Cowboy/WB shooters slam 97s harder than the guns were originally designed to be run.

 

good luck, GJ

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

 I will be ordering one soon. We will be leaving tomorrow for a match, I will remove the screw when I come back.  LPL has a spare that she can use. Good thing because she definitely does not want to use my hammered SG.

Thanks GJ for you help

 

Nawlins

[Rough 'N Ready Rob]

Looking at your pictures it looks like the right shell stop screw is coming out  allowing the shell stop to get out and stopping the carrer, be sure the shell stop is in position and tighten the screw.

[Sedalia Dave]

Make sure the hook fits the notch in the bolt well or you'll keep breaking the screw. I bought two original 97s that came as a box of parts.  The parts were supposed to be all original Winchester but it turned out several were not.

 

By the time I got them both assembled correctly I learned A LOT. 

 

I discovered that the bolt from a chinese clone will fit in a real Winchester and will cycle. I'm pretty sure an original Winchester carrier will fit a clone (no idea if it'll function) but I am certain that a clone carrier will not fit an original. (Too wide by a couple thousandths of an inch)

 

I also learned that the hooks APPEAR to be interchangeable but in reality are not. You have to make sure that the hook fits the cut out in the bolt well or you'll constantly break the screw. The screw is there to keep the hook in the slot. It is not there to take the full load of cycling the bolt.

 

Several other parts from a clone will fit an original but the fit is sloppy and will cause issues later on.

[Fallon Kid]

Funny you should ask. Had same(?) problem last month. The carriage r/h release screw fell and bolt would not move. That had potential cause for reaction but the operating rod had disengaged from the bolt  and was jammed. The fix was to get rod all the way fwd and use a flat edge to realign rod to proper orientation and reengage. I’m sure it is was slightly out of straight due to pulling n pushing trying to get it to open.

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

Update,

A friend helped me open the action. Once we opened it and remove the mag tube. Decided to check the hook screw (with a new one purchased) the original screw was still in good shape. Replaced the mag tube but did not lock it in and the action worked. Once the tube was locked in I could not open the action. Loosen it and it would work. Any ideas what I could try? Could the action slide be torqued?

Thanks

Nawlins

[Yul Lose]

Did you have the hook out of the receiver? Wonder what it looks like? One thing I had happen one time is the left side extractor broke and one of the pieces got jammed between the hook and the receiver. You can tell if it s broken by pushing on it with an Allen wrench or small screw driver and see if it springs back. Like Fredrick Jackson Turner says in his song The Wreck Of The Old 97, there’s a lot of things that can go wrong with 1897 shotguns.

[Rough 'N Ready Rob]

13 hours ago, Nawlins Kid SASS #36107 said:

Update,

A friend helped me open the action. Once we opened it and remove the mag tube. Decided to check the hook screw (with a new one purchased) the original screw was still in good shape. Replaced the mag tube but did not lock it in and the action worked. Once the tube was locked in I could not open the action. Loosen it and it would work. Any ideas what I could try? Could the action slide be torqued?

 

Thanks

 

Nawlins

 

Like in my earlier post, did you check the right shell stop and screw ? the screw shouldn't be out like that.