What's the Call - Setting SxS down with action closed prior to starting stage

[Ranger Dan]

There is no penalty for a shotgun leaving the shooters hands closed so long as it is "empty" SHB P15. Per the OP, no one noticed the shotgun closed while the shooter was moving from the LT to the staging location. The shotgun could have closed when staging. Since that is all we can say for sure is that it was staged closed, TO instructs shooter to open it and show it is "empty"... No Call.

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

Well, here is our cure for that issue. Shortcake has small hands. It is practically impossible for her to carry her SxS in one hand and keep the action open. This let’s everyone know the gun is open and empty. It has generated some snarky comments in the past on the Wire, but it works for her. One less issue to think about when staging weapons.

[Assassin]

If a SG closes after it's been emptied it's a no call. Why would it be any different? Both situations are empty, closed, with hammers cocked. Just have shooter show the SG is empty and move on.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Does nobody have a sense of humor anymore??  Have your sense of humor removed at birth??  Did nobody notice I said "shooter drops the rifle??"  "Shooter picks up the rifle??"

 

Why are so many so willing to find some fault to add some penalty??  Why are so many so intent to quote "the Rules" and still be wrong??  Get a Life for Pete's sake. 

[Hoss]

4 hours ago, Assassin said:

If a SG closes after it's been emptied it's a no call. Why would it be any different? Both situations are empty, closed, with hammers cocked. Just have shooter show the SG is empty and move on.

That’s not the rule. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

22 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Does nobody have a sense of humor anymore??  Have your sense of humor removed at birth??  Did nobody notice I said "shooter drops the rifle??"  "Shooter picks up the rifle??"

 

Why are so many so willing to find some fault to add some penalty??  Why are so many so intent to quote "the Rules" and still be wrong??  Get a Life for Pete's sake. 

I guess because we're all safety officers and this is a safety rule?  Some enforce the rules as written and others enforce the rules as they think they should be written? Personally I would be fine if there was an exception for shotguns carried from the LT to the stage, the same as there is for rifles, but currently there isn't.

[John Kloehr]

7 hours ago, Ranger Dan said:

There is no penalty for a shotgun leaving the shooters hands closed so long as it is "empty" SHB P15. Per the OP, no one noticed the shotgun closed while the shooter was moving from the LT to the staging location. The shotgun could have closed when staging. Since that is all we can say for sure is that it was staged closed, TO instructs shooter to open it and show it is "empty"... No Call.

That (page 15) is in the course of fire. The question is in regards to transporting or staging before the course of fire. Transport requires action open and empty (page 17).

[John Kloehr]

7 hours ago, Lawdog Dago Dom said:

Well, here is our cure for that issue. Shortcake has small hands. It is practically impossible for her to carry her SxS in one hand and keep the action open. This let’s everyone know the gun is open and empty. It has generated some snarky comments in the past on the Wire, but it works for her. One less issue to think about when staging weapons.

I have no objection. Well, maybe get a leather flag, that would look cool... That is all the snark I can come up with.

[Assassin]

2 hours ago, Hoss said:

That’s not the rule. 

Not to be argumentative. What is the difference between both situations?

 

[Major Crimes]

5 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Not to be argumentative. What is the difference between both situations?

 

Watch the video I posted earlier in this thread. It provides the relevant references.

[Assassin]

11 minutes ago, Major Crimes said:

Watch the video I posted earlier in this thread. It provides the relevant references.

The subject of the video is moving with closed shotgun. Not, staging the SG with closed action. Very similar rule to closed action after clearing empty SG shells and having gun close when it's re-staged. 

 

[Sam Sackett]

On 8/20/2023 at 5:05 PM, Barry Sloe said:

So ... I'm moving from the loading table to stage my long guns and the SG swings closed.  Rifle in one hand, SG in the other, who is going to open my SG?

This is another rule that makes no sense whatsoever.  

 

BS

Get in the habit of putting your little finger in the trigger guard of the double as you pick it up. If you do this, it can’t go closed as you are carrying it to the stage. If folks have sloppy gun handling and the shotty closes, there is a penalty. Same as with other rules. 
 

Might be some of the rules are to keep folks from careless gun handling?  Or maybe I’m all wet…..

 

Sam Sackett 

[Major Crimes]

3 hours ago, Assassin said:

The subject of the video is moving with closed shotgun. Not, staging the SG with closed action. Very similar rule to closed action after clearing empty SG shells and having gun close when it's re-staged. 

 

He does say (in the video) what the penalty and reasons are when you stage (take your hands off) the shotgun.

 

Also the OP is about moving from the LT to stage the SG. It is not about post the commencement of firing and it explains why the difference in the rules too.

 

Not saying anything is right or wrong, just saying those are the rules.

 

If you don't like the rules work for a change, live with the consequences or don't play the game.

[Flying W Ramrod]

20 hours ago, Ranger Dan said:

There is no penalty for a shotgun leaving the shooters hands closed so long as it is "empty" SHB P15. Per the OP, no one noticed the shotgun closed while the shooter was moving from the LT to the staging location. The shotgun could have closed when staging. Since that is all we can say for sure is that it was staged closed, TO instructs shooter to open it and show it is "empty"... No Call.

The penalty it "moving with a cocked, closed, long gun" the ONLY exception is for a RIFLE. SDQ if it's a shotgun.

[Assassin]

7 hours ago, Major Crimes said:

He does say (in the video) what the penalty and reasons are when you stage (take your hands off) the shotgun.

 

Also the OP is about moving from the LT to stage the SG. It is not about post the commencement of firing and it explains why the difference in the rules too.

 

Not saying anything is right or wrong, just saying those are the rules.

 

If you don't like the rules work for a change, live with the consequences or don't play the game.

My SG doesn't close when I'm carrying it or when I stage it.  Might be an issue for smaller people or those with small hands. The rule as written appears to conflict with another rule. I'll have to post something on the TG wire. Thanks!

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

17 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Does nobody have a sense of humor anymore??  Have your sense of humor removed at birth??  Did nobody notice I said "shooter drops the rifle??"  "Shooter picks up the rifle??"

 

Why are so many so willing to find some fault to add some penalty??  Why are so many so intent to quote "the Rules" and still be wrong??  Get a Life for Pete's sake. 

 

It's possible you are not as humorous as you think you are.  These are written words, it can be difficult to communicate sarcasm.  I read your original post the same way as others here apparently did...no humor detected.  BTW, I do have an excellent sense of humor.

[Ranger Dan]

16 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

That (page 15) is in the course of fire. The question is in regards to transporting or staging before the course of fire. Transport requires action open and empty (page 17).

And I addressed the moving with closed cocked shotgun as not relevant since no one actually saw that per the OP. The rule states "Safe to leave the shooters hands" "Empty" staging or re-staging, safe to leave the shooters hands is the only call that can be made in this situation. TO could leave the shotgun staged closed and call a procedural for improperly staged, same as if the shooter put it in the wrong place, or as most TOs would do, correct the improperly staged shotgun and move on. There is no penalty for putting down (leaves the shooters hands) closed empty shotgun. Everyone wants to make the assumption that the shooter moved with the shotgun closed. If a shooter stages their shotgun closed, yet no one observed them moving with it closed, how can you call a SDQ for something no one saw?

[Tennessee williams]

On 8/19/2023 at 6:18 PM, Chief Rick said:

Somewhere between the loading bench and the staging table for the shotgun, the SxS shotgun closes.

My guess is the shooter knows where the shotgun closed. 

On 8/19/2023 at 6:18 PM, Chief Rick said:

What's the call when the shooter sets the shotgun down on the table, in the closed position?

Pg 15 shb. Safety and Handling Conventions-Shotguns: Shotguns are always staged OPEN and empty and are always loaded on the clock unless the stage begins with the shotgun in the shooters' hands.

 

On 8/19/2023 at 6:18 PM, Chief Rick said:

If noticed while in transit should the shooter stop, or be told to stop immediately, and be provided assistance?

SDQ penalty is assessed as soon as they moved with closed and cocked sg, regardless of what kind of shotgun. 

[Tennessee williams]

[Bull Skinner]

[Flying W Ramrod]

23 hours ago, Assassin said:

The subject of the video is moving with closed shotgun. Not, staging the SG with closed action. Very similar rule to closed action after clearing empty SG shells and having gun close when it's re-staged. 

 

If you made it to the staging location with an open shotgun, and it closed upon setting it down, and the TO saw all this, it should be a no call.

If you walked to the staging location with the shotgun closed, and cocked, it's a SDQ.
The provision for fixing the coming to the line with a cocked, closed, long gun is for RIFLE only.

Shotgun closed and walking, sucks to be you.

[Rancho Roy]

The whole idea of "letting go of the gun causes the penalty"  is so strange to be ridiculous......A firearm sitting there with no one touching it is as safe as it can be. The human element, touching the firearm, makes the situation unsafe.....I hate this new rule......Screaming at a shooter as he comes to the line with a cocked rifle..."Don't let go of the Rifle!!!".... Rule needs to be amended....

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

So, like I asked 4 days ago, what if it's an "exposed hammer" double and the hammers are in the down position and NOT in the cocked position? 

[John Kloehr]

34 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

So, like I asked 4 days ago, what if it's an "exposed hammer" double and the hammers are in the down position and NOT in the cocked position? 

For transport, the only two requirements are unloaded and open. Cocked is not one of the criteria.

[Mister Badly]

 

[Tennessee williams]

41 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

So, like I asked 4 days ago, what if it's an "exposed hammer" double and the hammers are in the down position and NOT in the cocked position? 

I answered this already. I gave 4 sg examples.

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

So, like I asked 4 days ago, what if it's an "exposed hammer" double and the hammers are in the down position and NOT in the cocked position? 

Yes TN, and your last answer was "closed and "cocked."

[John Kloehr]

15 minutes ago, Mister Badly said:

 

Yes, I know, but the last question was easy, right out of the rules and covered earlier.

 

At least I thought so. So now I just offer this. It might require an NSFW warning but since I can't understand a word of this kind of music, here it is raw:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhdnbauIFKE

Edited August 23 by John Kloehr

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Some of y'all seem to be confusing the rules for moving from the LT to the staging point vs. changing location/discarding a long gun "During a Course of Fire".

REF:
SHB pp.15-16 & 22 

 

[Tennessee williams]

1 hour ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

So, like I asked 4 days ago, what if it's an "exposed hammer" double and the hammers are in the down position and NOT in the cocked position? 

Yes TN, and your last answer was "closed and "cocked."

Look at number 2. Labeled Hammered double from page 1.

 

Some examples. The following shotguns being carried muzzle up to or from the stage.

 

1). 1897 -The shooter carries it by only the forearm and the weight of the gun closes the action. The long gun is now cocked with action closed. It is not safe to move in this condition. SDQ if the shooter continues to move with the hammer back and action closed. 

 

2). Hammered double -The shooter carries the long gun in such a way it closes on the way to or from the LT or ULT. If the hammers are back and it closes, SDQ if the shooter keeps moving. If the hammers are not back and it closes and they keep moving then no call because it is not cocked and closed.

 

3). 1887 -Shooter somehow closes the action to or from the LT or ULT with the hammer back. SDQ if the shooter moves with it in that condition. If the hammer is not back, no call because it is not cocked and closed.

 

4) Hammerless double- Shooter is moving to or from the LT or ULT and the shotgun closes. SDQ if it is cocked and closed. ****This can be easily proven or disproven on the course of fire by pointing the sg at the berm and pulling the trigger. If it clicks, it was cocked. If it doesn't, it wasn't.

 

[Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L]

On 8/21/2023 at 9:32 AM, Lawdog Dago Dom said:

Well, here is our cure for that issue. Shortcake has small hands. It is practically impossible for her to carry her SxS in one hand and keep the action open. This let’s everyone know the gun is open and empty. It has generated some snarky comments in the past on the Wire, but it works for her. One less issue to think about when staging weapons.

Cowboy shooting is one of the few shooting sports that does not require chamber flags for long guns and yes I understand the difference between a lever gun and a semiautomatic. With that said anybody who has a snarky comment over an item that enhances safety or allows a shooter to move to and from the line in safe manner should probably rethink their comment. 

[Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L]

16 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

I am thinking we can get at least 4 pages out of this topic.

[Crawdaddy]

Shooter finishes course of fire and heads to the unloading table, somewhere along the way the shotgun closes, shooter arrives at unloading table with closed shotgun, What’s the call?

[Tennessee williams]

55 minutes ago, Crawdaddy said:

Shooter finishes course of fire and heads to the unloading table, somewhere along the way the shotgun closes, shooter arrives at unloading table with closed shotgun, What’s the call?

Some examples. The following shotguns being carried muzzle up to or from the stage.

 

1). 1897 -The shooter carries it by only the forearm and the weight of the gun closes the action. The long gun is now cocked with action closed. It is not safe to move in this condition. SDQ if the shooter continues to move with the hammer back and action closed. 

 

2). Hammered double -The shooter carries the long gun in such a way it closes on the way to or from the LT or ULT. If the hammers are back and it closes, SDQ if the shooter keeps moving. If the hammers are not back and it closes and they keep moving then no call because it is not cocked and closed.

 

3). 1887 -Shooter somehow closes the action to or from the LT or ULT with the hammer back. SDQ if the shooter moves with it in that condition. If the hammer is not back, no call because it is not cocked and closed.

 

4) Hammerless double- Shooter is moving to or from the LT or ULT and the shotgun closes. SDQ if it is cocked and closed. 

[Max Payne]

On 8/20/2023 at 9:27 PM, Major Crimes said:

 

 

Great video, good reminder!