Nimrod help on scoring better

[Gungadin]

My first time out I averaged 60 sec over 6 rounds with 2 misses and one sequence penalty.  My last round was 41, clearly my trend improved.  Is it a reasonable goal to be in the low 40's with my raw score on the second time out?  My practice is more transitions 2, 2, 2 and 4 shotgun at 25 seconds.    I mix up the gun order.  That is what I'm working on not trigger speed.

 

Am I reading beginner strategy correctly?

[Hoss]

Your times will go down fairly quickly, as you get more experienced. Once you break 30, it gets tougher. Every plateau is harder to climb. That’s when the really little things start mattering. This game is really more about transitions than just running your guns fast.  
But if you want to shoot fast, push yourself to shoot fast. You will have misses, but over time those will go away. If you focus too much on accuracy you won’t ever shoot fast. 

 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

As to speed and misses, think of a see-saw.  You work on one side, then the other.  Start with speed, then thing deliberate - not slower.  It is much easier to teach a fast shooter to be accurate than to teach an accurate shooter to be fast.

 

Also, don't think of being "more accurate" it is either accurate or a miss.

 

And as other have said, moving quickly and efficient transitions are vital.

[Bingo Montana]

If you are anywhere near the Central VA area shoot me an email or IM.  We have a great group of folks always willing to help you in your Cowboy Action Shooting journey.  We have folks that come down from NOVA, come from the beach area, and even from out west.  There are 5 clubs hosting matches within 45 to 1:15 minutes of Richmond where you can pick up a lot of trigger time.  I have to plug my own posse, the Cavalier Cowboys at Cavalier Rifle & Pistol Club, but we are not the only game in town.  We are also hosting the 2023 VA State Cowboy Action Shooting Championship this Labor Day Weekend, please come check it out.  

 

Heck, my first match I didn't even realize the shotgun I borrowed had two triggers and can still hear that voice in my head from the posse "pull the back trigger!" What a hoot that was.  I still had fun because of all the great help and mentors.  

 

Good luck Pard and check us out if can.

 

bingo.montana @ gmail.com

 

 

Edited August 4 by Bingo Montana

[Texas Maverick]

1 hour ago, Gungadin said:

My first time out I averaged 60 sec over 6 rounds with 2 misses and one sequence penalty.  My last round was 41, clearly my trend improved.  Is it a reasonable goal to be in the low 40's with my raw score on the second time out?  My practice is more transitions 2, 2, 2 and 4 shotgun at 25 seconds.    I mix up the gun order.  That is what I'm working on not trigger speed.

 

Am I reading beginner strategy correctly?

I started out in 2018 and averaged 65 seconds per stage for a 6 stage match. I worked hard on a lot of things to get better. Coming from the law enforcement arena I was taking more time being accurate than fast. I have a lot of help from fellow shooters over the years and now shoot 25 second averages for a 6 stage match. I am working on breaking the 20 second mark and hopefully will get there. I don't think I have reached my peak yet but at 73 who knows. I have fun which is the main thing. I don't know of anyone else keeping track of their matches but I have a spreadsheet of every match I have been to with all my times, misses and procedures. I can look back at anytime and see how I am doing. It is interesting that out of 107 total matches I have 32 clean matches.  

 

TM

[Choctaw Jack]

When I first started CAS, there seemed to be two schools of thought :

" Go as fast as you can, the misses will get smaller"

And

" Dont worry about speed, you'll get faster. You can't miss fast enough to win"

I still don't know which school of thought is more productive. 

I  tend to concentrate on keeping my movements smooth and efficient, and making every action count.

But every once in a while you gotta just " let it loose " and go for it.

After all,we're out there to have fun!

Choctaw

[J-BAR #18287]

If you are serious about reducing your times, use a competition timer when you practice, both dry fire and live fire.

 

Live fire without targets helped me...just shooting into the dirt as fast as I could to learn transitions and speed.  It was easy to transfer and maintain the speed while picking up the front sight when I addressed targets.

[largo casey #19191]

Choctaw

  It also helps to use less powder.?????

                                                                 Largo

[Cypress Sun]

2 hours ago, Gungadin said:

My first time out I averaged 60 sec over 6 rounds with 2 misses and one sequence penalty.  My last round was 41, clearly my trend improved.  Is it a reasonable goal to be in the low 40's with my raw score on the second time out?  My practice is more transitions 2, 2, 2 and 4 shotgun at 25 seconds.    I mix up the gun order.  That is what I'm working on not trigger speed.

 

Am I reading beginner strategy correctly?

 

 "If your hands aren't doing something while the timer is going, then neither are you."

[Choctaw Jack]

9 minutes ago, largo casey #19191 said:

Choctaw

  It also helps to use less powder.?????

                                                                 Largo

Hey,

Squibs don't help your time,either!

[wyliefoxEsquire]

6 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

 "If your hands aren't doing something while the timer is going, then neither are you."

I see three areas,

Speed

Accuracy

Transitions

 

Of the three it is best, being new,  to practice transitions.  Train you muscles to remember.  Minimize hand movements. One hand puts the gun down while the other is picking another one up.  Be smooth.  I have been told smooth is fast.  Once you have mastered transitions then work on the other two.  It is much easier to lower each transition by 2-5 seconds.

 

Watch videos of the top shooters.  Watch the transitions.   See how both hands are always dong something.

 

 

[Cholla]

Check out Dead Eye's YouTube videos.

[Gungadin]

Thanks guys,

 

I know I've watched  Dead Eyes YouTube and many others.

 

The guns point well and my eye hand coordination is good at getting them on target without much sighting.  Call it point shooting if you like.  One miss was due to thinking about the pistol sequence.  I don't remember a rifle or shotgun miss.  I felt reasonably fast shooting.  The slowness was in the sequence thinking and the gun handling transitions.  Slowness was also related to learning curve and safety focus.  I suppose at this point I should accept a few misses and not 'aim' for perfection.

 

I want to balance the getting better with having fun .  

[MizPete]

5 hours ago, Hoss said:

If you focus too much on accuracy you won’t ever shoot fast. 

Disagree.  I don't shoot but I've watched (& scored) more than most of you have shot.  Do accuracy first; speed will follow.

[Hoss]

6 minutes ago, MizPete said:

Disagree.  I don't shoot but I've watched (& scored) more than most of you have shot.  Do accuracy first; speed will follow.

Respectfully disagree. If you don’t try to shoot fast, you will never shoot fast. 

[J-BAR #18287]

1 hour ago, Gungadin said:

 

I want to balance the getting better with having fun .  

 

Getting better (faster) IS fun.  I enjoyed my practice time more than matches.

[Gungadin]

'A man must know his limitations'

 

Somebody less well known said something about missing fast....its deadly?  But luckily these targets don't shoot back.

[John Kloehr]

The concept of simply shooting clean and speed will come is flawed, but there is a truth hiding in the adage.

 

Shooting consistently will result in better match times than pushing too hard and mixing fast clean stages with fast misses on other stages.

 

Safety first, but go as fast as you can and still be consistent and accurate. I do think transitions are where to learn to reduce time, unless you need a lot of time to fire esch round.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Long Hunter produced some videos for the NSSF.  Here is one on shooting faster: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS5s3rgP_vU.

 

Here is another on how to practice: 

 

There are several others regarding shooting various firearms.

 

Evil Roy produced a series of DVD on CAS and practicing.  They are worth purchasing.  Evil Roy and Long Hunter are established champions who are good instructors.

[Tell Sackett SASS 18436]

5 hours ago, Choctaw Jack said:

When I first started CAS, there seemed to be two schools of thought :

" Go as fast as you can, the misses will get smaller"

And

" Dont worry about speed, you'll get faster. You can't miss fast enough to win"

I still don't know which school of thought is more productive. 

I  tend to concentrate on keeping my movements smooth and efficient, and making every action count.

But every once in a while you gotta just " let it loose " and go for it.

After all,we're out there to have fun!

Choctaw

“Go as fast as you can” is the way to go to be a top gun!

I went the other way!

[Hoss]

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I'll never be fast.   I just try for a clean match and to have fun if I get one or not.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Long Hunter covered it.  He is a World and national Champ.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Unless you're super-human, have perfectly working guns, flawless ammo,  and have a LOT of practice time on your hands, don't expect to be shooting very many clean stages under 30 seconds during your first year. 

 

 The practice advice above is all good, but only if you put in the time and expense.  

Get a good timer that is capable of reviewing split times shot by shot.  Then practice for a time, checking the timer afterwards and recording times for pistol, rifle and shotgun strings,  plus transition times between them.  You will quickly realize where you can cut seconds off your total times.   You will find that transitions and shotgun loading are the big time consumers.  You will not be a fast shooter until you master those two items.  

 

Pistol and rifle speed will come with practice, as will precision.   But don't neglect transition practice. 

 

Here are a couple exercises that I found helpful.  

 

Pistols:  Draw - Fire 1 round -  reholster.  Do it over and over again.  Same for GFs, except fire one rd with each hand.

 

Rifle:  Dry fire a LOT, until the timing and cadence become natural to you.  Set up a handful of Post-it targets on your living room wall and dry fire away.  ( BE SURE TO DOUBLE-CONFIRM THAT  THE GUN IS UNLOADED-- sounds obvious, but accidents have occurred)

File the top of the rim off of a dummy/snap cap round so it does not eject when you work the lever, then practice rapid levering and trigger timing.  You need to have your lever-trigger timing under control to avoid jacking out rounds, costing reload time in matches. 

 

Shotgun:  More time is used for shotgun loading than any other stage activity, so PRACTICE LOADING. 

 

If shooting a double barrel, hold the open empty shotgun at roughly firing position and repeatedly load the chambers with dummy rounds.  With two shells in-hand, go back and forth from the belt/ bandolier to the chambers,  (never releasing your grip on the shells), and  push them only halfway into the chambers, then back to the belt.  Go back and forth 100 times, then repeat and repeat with multiple sessions until you can hit the chambers every time - with minimal watching.    (Hint:  align the top of the cases to the top curves of the two chambers, then tip them in)

In this exercise,  you're only developing muscle memory for finding the belt and alignimg shells to the chambers rapidly, so it isn't necessary to take time to release the shells and re-grab them.  Those tasks require different exercises.  Practicing shucking of empties pretty much will  require live fire practice.   

 

If shooting a 97, load your SG belt with snap caps and repeatedly load the chamber either over the top (left handed) or dropping them in right handed and working the action to chamber, then eject them until you have the motions, positions and timing down.  

 

There are lots of ways to practice, and I suggest you ask other shooters for advice.  I'm only a medium fast shooter, usually breaking 30 sec in only about 70% of stages and 20 sec in maybe 5%.   The above practice hints were shared with me early on, and I found them helpful.  And they reduced practice cost and reloading time considerably.   Once you reach the plateau where this kind of practice ceases to help you improve further, you're on your own to develop live-fire practice techniques that work for you. 

Best of luck.  Hope this is helpful.  

 

Edited August 5 by Dusty Devil Dale

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I'm curious about something in the title of this thread.

 

"Nimrod help."   What exactly is "Nimrod help?"

Are you using Nimrod in the modern sense of the word, to mean a buffoon, or in the older, original sense, to refer to a great hunter?

The modern meaning of the word was coined by Daffy Duck, when he called Elmer Fudd, "Nimrod," in a mocking sort of a way since he was such an obviously inept hunter.  Somehow, it caught on, and the word has just come to mean a goofball.

But that was not always the case.   Daffy was actually using the real meaning of the word, albeit in a mocking way.   Nimrod, is a character from history, famous for his prowess as a warrior and a hunter.   He's even mentioned in the Bible, which says that he was "a mighty hunter before the Lord."  So traditionally, calling someone a Nimrod, was something of a compliment.  

And yet, probably quite unintentionally, Daffy Duck, (and Bugs Bunny, who called Yosemite Sam a nimrod as well) changed the meaning of calling someone a nimrod into a generic insult for a clueless person.

Thus endeth the triva/Biblical lesson for the day. 

 

Edited August 5 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

[Eyesa Horg]

Guessing he was calling himself a nimrod in the modern use of the word.

[Gungadin]

I didn't recognize nimrod was so derogatory.  A neophyte or novice cowboy might be more correctly called 'greenhorn' an Indian a 'tenderfoot'?  An apprentice is sometimes called a devil so a  'Cowboys Devil'?  Nimrod is more stupid not inexperienced.

 

My vocabulary is improved...if I can only recall the word when needed.

 

 

[Gungadin]

• Transitions were slow
• I half cocked the pistols a few times
• Lot of opportunity loading the 97
• Some safety time on making sure the rifle and shotgun are open as well as making sure the revolver is unloaded and not recocked before holstering.

Lots of 'muscle memory' to develop.  First time everything is a checklist...very mechanical.

 

And Cowboys need some  shorts ... it gets hot.  Can I wear a kilt?

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

18 minutes ago, Gungadin said:

I didn't recognize nimrod was so derogatory.  A neophyte or novice cowboy might be more correctly called 'greenhorn' an Indian a 'tenderfoot'?  An apprentice is sometimes called a devil so a  'Cowboys Devil'?  Nimrod is more stupid not inexperienced.

 

My vocabulary is improved...if I can only recall the word when needed.

 

 

I don't know that I'd say it was derogatory, as much as it is a more "silly" term of approbation.   Kinda like nincompoop or ultra maroon.   Context of course, is everything, and it is important to be humorous from time to time.

 

Except an night on Tuesday, when you'd be disqualified. 

[One Gun Jimmy]

My first time out was a blast, slow and misses for sure. 

 

What I do for a goal is very very simple but obtainable improvement.

 

I just simply look at my overall time from the previous match and try to beat it.

 

That simple. 

 

I 1000% garentee trigger speed is the very last of your issues at this stage.

 

My issues are :

 

rehostering both guns

 

drawing my week side and transferring it to strong and back

 

Getting my shotgun loaded and reloaded in a timley manner

 

Getting a fast sight picture on pistols and shotgun, especially after movement.

 

I am currently in the low mid 40sec average range. 

 

there are some smoking fast people at my local club...world champions and all.

 

I watch these guys and gals and just see the common things they do and tey to work them into my way of thinking.

 

They are all also very willing to leand pointers if you ask, or just look like you are hitting a wall.

 

My true advice is to have fun and keep getting comfortable,  make sure you are developing good habbits and keep pushing.....you will get there.

 

And until you can pick a gun up or grab from a holster as smooth and economically as possible then there is many seconds to shave without ever firing a round.

 

[Hoss]

Be as close to you next gun as possible. I see lots of folks stand on center or even left side of a shooting position, when the should be as far right (or vice-versa) as possible to be closer to their next gun. Every step is a second. If moving to shotgun, should have shells in hand by the time you get there. If moving to pistol position, try to have pistol drawn ( being ever mindful of the 170!) by the time you get there. 
I always draw my crossdraw pistol first. Moving left to right it’s pretty simple. Moving right to left it’s very hard to do without breaking 170. (I’m right handed) 

 

[Texas Maverick]

On 8/5/2023 at 11:51 AM, Gungadin said:

• And Cowboys need some  shorts ... it gets hot.  Can I wear a kilt?

Our club allows shorts in the summer along with t-shirts and tennis shoes. Kilts are worn by a few of the shooters and actually is considered legal SASS attire. Just don't bend over in front of anyone. Remember they can't unsee what they do see. LOL

 

TM

[WOLFY]

On 8/4/2023 at 4:07 PM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I'll never be fast.   I just try for a clean match and to have fun if I get one or not.

Me too, H K.

 

I have been getting more n more clean stages per match.  I, average closer to :50 per stage than :45.

Edited August 7 by WOLFY