bcraig Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 I have read throught the years that the Safest (less likely to experience Magazine detonation due to bullet nose striking the primer of another cartridge and causing the cartridge to fire in the Magazine )Bullet style to use in Lever Action tubular Magazines such as the 92 action is the safest to use a RNFP Lead bullet which is the bullet style the action was designed for. And the Lead nose was relatively soft,again from what I have read. I also know that there have been a lot of people claim that a Roundnose design with a more rounded shape than spitzer type shape was fine to use. But from what I have read a Meplat of greater Diameter than the Primer/Primer Pocket also helps. Now after looking ,I can find Factory loaded 38 Special ammunition using a RNFP Bullet and I can find Factory Loaded 44 special Ammunition but Most describe the Lead bullets as RNFP Hardcast such as HSM. I also know that there are some who describe any bullet when cast as 'being Hardcast ' instead of Just saying it is a cast bullet. Given that, does anyone know the actuall Hardness of the HSM RNFP Hard Cast 38 Special / 44 Special bullets used in their Factory Loaded Ammunition ?? Are there any Company's that Make Factory loaded 38 Special/44 Special RNFP ammunition that use a softer lead than Hard Cast to farther Preclude Magazine detonation ?? Thank's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 All you need is RNFP, whether it be of soft lead, hard lead, JSP or full metal jacket (i.e. only lead bullets for CAS though). As long as the primer of the foreword cartridge is recessed properly, no issues with any of them. This is why we use pistol primers and not rifle primers for our leveraction magazine loaded cartridges. The design "with" the "soft lead" and then "soft lead point" was so it will expand when it hits flesh...somewhat like a hollowpoint. Here is a pure soft lead 44-40 bullet that met with clear ballistics gel Here is a 1920's 44-40 JSP soft lead point that also met with clear ballistics gel. Later, hard lead points do not expand as well, but also do not deform when loaded/unloaded/loaded/unloaded multiple times. Same bullet gel test results. Ignore the "High Velocity" part. Although 1,157fps is High Velocity from a large frame revolver, it is below normal muzzle velocity for a rifle. The Impact Velocity is what is actually being demonstrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 It will be harder than ever now to shoot Cowboy matches by buying loaded ammo. Shortages are rampant due to many small ammo companies running out of labor and components during the pandemic, so they closed. Really recommend you look at loading yourself, or having one of the few small commercial loaders make ammo. Yes, you want a round nose flat point, or a truncated cone (also has a large flat point) bullet. Both will feed well in a lever action rifle. Softer lead is better than hard lead for accuracy and for fitting your barrel well enough that you do not get leading. A bullet hardness of about 9 or 10 Brinell is just about perfect for Cowboy shooting, since we rarely try to make more than 900 FPS velocity. You mentioned HSM - that commercial reloader features real hard lead slugs at high velocities, usually meant for hunting big game, AFAIK. Not all that suitable for Cowboy matches. I know one small company which specializes in Cowboy ammo - Bullets By Scarlett. Here;s some of their ammo listings: https://bulletsbyscarlett.com/shop/ols/categories/cowboy-cartridges Contact her for availability of .44 special, which is not a real common cartridge for SASS games. Hope some other pards who have used commercial loaders for their ammo will chime in with good vendors. good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 Hornswaggle. It has been known for years, Round Nose bullets are a hazard in Tubular Magazines. The possibility of a Magazine Detonation is quite real. Does it happen often?? No. It does, however happen. But consider, you only have ONE left hand. Do you really want to risk it to sketchy practices when all it take is to load Round Nose Flat Point bullets. Round Nose commercially loaded cartridges are primarily intended for use in Hand Guns. Your Call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcraig Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 8 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: It will be harder than ever now to shoot Cowboy matches by buying loaded ammo. Shortages are rampant due to many small ammo companies running out of labor and components during the pandemic, so they closed. I am not shooting Cowboy matches but rather I joined to learn about it. As of right now My interest lies with 2 Rossi 92 carbines both with 16 inch barrel,one Is a 38Special/ 357 Magnum and the other is a 44Special/44 manum. As of now I am just an almost 64 year old man interested in stepping outside in my backyard and plinking with both rifles. And Will keep both loaded in the house for Home defense. I just want ammo that will cycle and as safe as possible to use in them. Really recommend you look at loading yourself, or having one of the few small commercial loaders make ammo. I have reloaded off and on for about 50 years both for pistols and rifles but really don't care to anymore unless I have to. I figure that i will be lucky to shoot 250 rounds a year due to my health. Yes, you want a round nose flat point, or a truncated cone (also has a large flat point) bullet. Both will feed well in a lever action rifle. Softer lead is better than hard lead for accuracy and for fitting your barrel well enough that you do not get leading. A bullet hardness of about 9 or 10 Brinell is just about perfect for Cowboy shooting, since we rarely try to make more than 900 FPS velocity. I am just wanting Ammunition for both calibers that will be safe for both calibers and subsonic . Say somewhere between 900 at the lower end and 1,100 FPS at the upper end. You mentioned HSM - that commercial reloader features real hard lead slugs at high velocities, usually meant for hunting big game, AFAIK. Not all that suitable for Cowboy matches. Yes I Have looked at What HSM sells and in eithe caliber they Have a round that uses a RNFP that has about 850 FPS which I guess was taken from a pistol but might stay under 1,100 when shot from 16 inch barrels. My concern is that they show them as 'Hard Cast' and from what I have read the softer a lead bullet is the better because if part of the bullet does come in contact with the round in front it that the softer lead will sorta deform and soften the blow on the primer. I also like that I can buy them for less than a buck a round. I know one small company which specializes in Cowboy ammo - Bullets By Scarlett. Here;s some of their ammo listings: https://bulletsbyscarlett.com/shop/ols/categories/cowboy-cartridges Contact her for availability of .44 special, which is not a real common cartridge for SASS games. Thanks for the link and I will check her ammo out more. Hope some other pards who have used commercial loaders for their ammo will chime in with good vendors. Yes that would be nice. good luck, GJ Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcraig Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 12 hours ago, Savvy Jack said: All you need is RNFP, whether it be of soft lead, hard lead, JSP or full metal jacket (i.e. only lead bullets for CAS though). As long as the primer of the foreword cartridge is recessed properly, no issues with any of them. This is why we use pistol primers and not rifle primers for our leveraction magazine loaded cartridges. The design "with" the "soft lead" and then "soft lead point" was so it will expand when it hits flesh...somewhat like a hollowpoint. Here is a pure soft lead 44-40 bullet that met with clear ballistics gel Here is a 1920's 44-40 JSP soft lead point that also met with clear ballistics gel. Later, hard lead points do not expand as well, but also do not deform when loaded/unloaded/loaded/unloaded multiple times. Same bullet gel test results. Ignore the "High Velocity" part. Although 1,157fps is High Velocity from a large frame revolver, it is below normal muzzle velocity for a rifle. The Impact Velocity is what is actually being demonstrated. Yes I would liketo find some 38 special and 44 special Factory loaded RNFP softer Lead that would give the kind of Performance that the first Picture shows of the 44-40 ammo. I will be shooting the Ammunition from rossi 92 stainless carbines and want to stay somewhere in the range of around 900 and 1,100 FPS with both calibers. For Plinking and Maybe shooting a coyote. I would want the softer lead RNFP as the RNFP would Lessen the chance Jams due to the bullets profile and lessen the chance or a magazine detonation in case the bullet nose contacts the primer of the round in front of it round in front of it as the softer lead nose would dampen the blow to the primer. Thanks for the pics and the Information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcraig Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 7 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: Hornswaggle. It has been known for years, Round Nose bullets are a hazard in Tubular Magazines. The possibility of a Magazine Detonation is quite real. Does it happen often?? No. It does, however happen. But consider, you only have ONE left hand. Do you really want to risk it to sketchy practices when all it take is to load Round Nose Flat Point bullets. Round Nose commercially loaded cartridges are primarily intended for use in Hand Guns. Your Call Yes I am going to use a RNFP for the Rossi 92 stainless Carbines with 16 inch barrels I just got one in 38 Special/357 Magnum and one in 44 Special/44 Magnum for occasional plinking and maybe Coyotes. Thank's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 2 hours ago, bcraig said: Yes I would liketo find some 38 special and 44 special Factory loaded RNFP softer Lead that would give the kind of Performance that the first Picture shows of the 44-40 ammo. I will be shooting the Ammunition from rossi 92 stainless carbines and want to stay somewhere in the range of around 900 and 1,100 FPS with both calibers. For Plinking and Maybe shooting a coyote. I would want the softer lead RNFP as the RNFP would Lessen the chance Jams due to the bullets profile and lessen the chance or a magazine detonation in case the bullet nose contacts the primer of the round in front of it round in front of it as the softer lead nose would dampen the blow to the primer. Thanks for the pics and the Information The 44-40 Winchester or Remington loads is what you are looking for. It is hard to find such factory loads any more. There are some here but the price is premium. https://www.gunbroker.com/Ammunition/search?Keywords=44-40&PageSize=24&Sort=13&View=1&PageIndex=2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcraig Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 2 hours ago, Savvy Jack said: The 44-40 Winchester or Remington loads is what you are looking for. It is hard to find such factory loads any more. There are some here but the price is premium. https://www.gunbroker.com/Ammunition/search?Keywords=44-40&PageSize=24&Sort=13&View=1&PageIndex=2 The rifle I have is a 44 Special/44 Magnum not a 44-40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 Bang & Clang bullets also has cowboy ready ammo and George is a SASS member and all around supporter of the game. His ammo is of the correct bullet profile for tubular magazines! https://bangandclangllc.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcraig Posted July 18 Author Share Posted July 18 2 hours ago, Captain Clark said: Bang & Clang bullets also has cowboy ready ammo and George is a SASS member and all around supporter of the game. His ammo is of the correct bullet profile for tubular magazines! https://bangandclangllc.com/ Thanks for the link but I dont see any 44 special ammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 30 minutes ago, bcraig said: The rifle I have is a 44 Special/44 Magnum not a 44-40 ooops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcraig Posted July 18 Author Share Posted July 18 2 hours ago, Savvy Jack said: ooops Mistakes Happen Heck I think I may have even made one myself !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 11 hours ago, bcraig said: Mistakes Happen Heck I think I may have even made one myself !! Your 44 Special loads fall under the same theory.....but probably cheaper https://www.gunbroker.com/item/999217191 https://www.gunbroker.com/Ammunition/search?Keywords=44 special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 16 hours ago, bcraig said: Thanks for the link but I dont see any 44 special ammo I am a lover of .44.spcl as the first pistol I had was a Colt New Frontier in .44 spcl and a Winchester 94 in .44 mag. It was easy to marry up a Ruger Vaquero in .44 mag and shoot .44spcl factory loads at about $12/box back in the early 2000s. Then I was shooting at the same outdoor range and ran into a range master who sold me a Square Deal B for $125 that was set for .44 mag. From then on I started reloading and perhaps as others have suggested for you that is the way to go. A SDB press is available but a lot more expensive as is everything else but still cheaper than 50 rounds of .44 special. Might want to think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 Georgia-arms usually has cowboy 44 Special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcraig Posted July 18 Author Share Posted July 18 4 hours ago, Dantankerous said: Georgia-arms usually has cowboy 44 Special. I will check them out Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcraig Posted July 18 Author Share Posted July 18 7 hours ago, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said: I am a lover of .44.spcl as the first pistol I had was a Colt New Frontier in .44 spcl and a Winchester 94 in .44 mag. It was easy to marry up a Ruger Vaquero in .44 mag and shoot .44spcl factory loads at about $12/box back in the early 2000s. Then I was shooting at the same outdoor range and ran into a range master who sold me a Square Deal B for $125 that was set for .44 mag. From then on I started reloading and perhaps as others have suggested for you that is the way to go. A SDB press is available but a lot more expensive as is everything else but still cheaper than 50 rounds of .44 special. Might want to think about it. I am just going to stick with Factory loaded ammo for my needs of extremely low volume, Mainly Just plinking. I have reloaded off and own for over 50 years and really dont want to do it anymore Thanks though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcraig Posted July 18 Author Share Posted July 18 5 hours ago, Dantankerous said: Georgia-arms usually has cowboy 44 Special. I just looked at Georgia arms and it say they are closed right now due to a fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 11 minutes ago, bcraig said: I am just going to stick with Factory loaded ammo for my needs of extremely low volume, Mainly Just plinking. I have reloaded off and own for over 50 years and really dont want to do it anymore Thanks though Understood good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 On 7/17/2023 at 2:04 AM, bcraig said: I have read throught the years that the Safest (less likely to experience Magazine detonation due to bullet nose striking the primer of another cartridge and causing the cartridge to fire in the Magazine )Bullet style to use in Lever Action tubular Magazines such as the 92 action is the safest to use a RNFP Lead bullet which is the bullet style the action was designed for. And the Lead nose was relatively soft,again from what I have read. I also know that there have been a lot of people claim that a Roundnose design with a more rounded shape than spitzer type shape was fine to use. But from what I have read a Meplat of greater Diameter than the Primer/Primer Pocket also helps. Now after looking ,I can find Factory loaded 38 Special ammunition using a RNFP Bullet and I can find Factory Loaded 44 special Ammunition but Most describe the Lead bullets as RNFP Hardcast such as HSM. I also know that there are some who describe any bullet when cast as 'being Hardcast ' instead of Just saying it is a cast bullet. Given that, does anyone know the actuall Hardness of the HSM RNFP Hard Cast 38 Special / 44 Special bullets used in their Factory Loaded Ammunition ?? Are there any Company's that Make Factory loaded 38 Special/44 Special RNFP ammunition that use a softer lead than Hard Cast to farther Preclude Magazine detonation ?? Thank's For anyone that doesn’t know RNFP stands for round nose, flat point. FYI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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