Problem Slip Hammering Vaquero

[Big Horn Bari]

Newby to the sport here so please have mercy!  I have new to me a set of Ruger SASS 357 Vaqueros.  Took them to the range for live fire for the first time after getting a feel for them with dry fire.  I was looking forward to seeing how these would compare to the Cimmeron Colt clones I used in my first few matches. One of the pair performed as I had hoped.  The other one not so much.

 

The problem was not being able to pull the hammer back with the trigger pulled. The first round is no issue.  It is the subsequent attempts to slip hammer the following shots that is the problem.  The hammer will not pull back unless I let up slightly on the trigger.  With the trigger release just a bit, the remaining shots can be slip hammered.  

 

Here some more info.  This doesn't happen with an empty cylinder.  But as soon as I put rounds or snap caps in - no bueno.  The revolvers were originally purchased in 2017 from Long Hunter who also did action jobs on them for the original owner.  Free spin mod was also done.

 

Thanks for getting this far in my post and thanks in advance to anyone who cares to reply.

[Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646]

Talk to Jim at Longhunter, he's a great guy and can probably solve your problem.

 

Imis

[Griff]

While slip-hammering is valid technique, IMO it is of little consequence in cowboy action.  You'll waste more time than you could possibly gain slip-hammering in transitions between guns.  The shot-to-shot time in moving between targets and acquiring a sight picture will be longer than the time it takes to cock the hammer & pull the trigger.  The only time slip-hammering can be of real use is for a five round dump... and even then, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between fast shooters using either technique.   

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I found that slip hammering was a bad habit.  Everything is fine as long as the targets are big and close.  Move the targets out and make them smaller and you'll be getting a lot of misses trying to slip hammer them.   Trying to change techniques depending on the stage was problematic for me too.  It's best to just cock, aim, fire.  

[Big Horn Bari]

1 minute ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

I found that slip hammering was a bad habit.  Everything is fine as long as the targets are big and close.  Move the targets out and make them smaller and you'll be getting a lot of misses trying to slip hammer them.   Trying to change techniques depending on the stage was problematic for me too.  It's best to just cock, aim, fire.  

 

 

Awesome feedback.  Thanks.  My first couple matches I worked slow and cocked the hammer and pulled the trigger. But I watched what the more experienced guys in my club were doing and was trying to learn from them.  They all slip hammered.  But yes - the targets at the local match are big and close. Shot my first (and only) clean match a couple weeks ago slip hammering.

 

We have another club match coming up next weekend. I'll see if I can shoot clean and match my previous time cocking and firing if I can't find a solution to the question in my original post.

[Doc Shapiro]

8 minutes ago, Big Horn Bari said:

 

 

Awesome feedback.  Thanks.  My first couple matches I worked slow and cocked the hammer and pulled the trigger. But I watched what the more experienced guys in my club were doing and was trying to learn from them.  They all slip hammered.  But yes - the targets at the local match are big and close. Shot my first (and only) clean match a couple weeks ago slip hammering.

 

We have another club match coming up next weekend. I'll see if I can shoot clean and match my previous time cocking and firing if I can't find a solution to the question in my original post.

Did you ask them if they slip hammered?  Several of the fastest shooters I know squeeze a trigger with every shot.  There are situations where slip hammering can help save a few hundredths of a second, but I would strongly urge you to set that aside until you really are looking for those small improvements. 

 

Fundamentals first.  Then speed.  Then speed.  (but not by slip hammering).  Eventually you may get to a point where it can help with certain situations, but I am pretty darned sure you aren't there yet unless your stage times are in the teens.

[Griff]

10 minutes ago, Big Horn Bari said:

Awesome feedback.  Thanks.  My first couple matches I worked slow and cocked the hammer and pulled the trigger. But I watched what the more experienced guys in my club were doing and was trying to learn from them.  They all slip hammered.  But yes - the targets at the local match are big and close. Shot my first (and only) clean match a couple weeks ago slip hammering.

 

We have another club match coming up next weekend. I'll see if I can shoot clean and match my previous time cocking and firing if I can't find a solution to the question in my original post.

Did you actually ask them if they were slip-hammering?  For you'd be hard pressed to tell just from watching a fast shooter.    See that?  That Doc fellar has always been faster'n me!

[Shawnee Hills]

BHB - you've described the exact same problem that I had with one of my NMV 45s last year.  It's an easy fix if you're familiar with the tear-down of your Ruger and handy with tools.  Oh, having the right tools helps too.

 

You likely already know this but as the trigger is pulled the transfer bar rises.  On some revolvers, pulling and holding the trigger fully will cause the transfer bar to depress the firing pin just enough for it to protrude from the recoil shield and interfere with the head of a cartridge.  As you saw, releasing the trigger slightly will let the firing pin relax just enough for the cartridge to pass by.

 

Look at how the transfer bar rides in the frame of the gun.  Pay special notice to the curve on the upper back of the bar.  Hold your hammer back and pull the trigger slowly and fully.  See how that curve causes the transfer bar to move up and towards the firing pin?  The bar should not be depressing the pin when the trigger is fully depressed; only touching or a slight distance away.  Yours' is depressing the pin.  What needs to be done is to either relieve that curve on the bar itself or take some material out of the frame so the bar does not engage the firing pin when the trigger is fully depressed.  It's much easier to modify the transfer bar.  Make sure you polish it when you're done so it will slide smoothly.  Hopefully I've explained it well enough to help.  It's a small job and easy to do.

[Tom Bullweed]

There used to be a sayin' in cowbot-action "Win with shotgun; Lose with pistols".

The pistol part was about accuracy, above all else.  A five-second penalty for a miss is hard to make up with speed.

IMO, I use all of my trigger time as training for an instance when I might need to defend myself.  Sliphammering is not something that I want to learn.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

We have had a couple young shooters win world and national championships that slip-hammered. 
(We just are not sure if there were actual humans at the time though.  )

 

Some can do it but the vast majority only look like they are slip hammering.

 

When I was young and in my prime one spectator noted after the stage, "that was slip-hammering."

 

The next stage I asked him to watch again, then said, I slip-hammered one pistol, which one.  He guessed the slightly faster pistol was slip hammered.  That was the one I DIDN'T slip hammer.  I had to be slightly more careful when slip-hammering to not miss once in a while.

[Rip Snorter]

For what it's worth, Elmer Keith knew an old gunfighter who not only was a slip hammer expert, his guns were set up for that only.  Keith tried it, I can't recall his exact comment, but he thought it was good for the intended purpose, but you could shoot that way or by usual methods and slip hammering was kind of a one trick pony.  Might be in Hell, I Was There.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

OP, switch cylinder pins and see if that changes anything. 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

The gun should slip hammer.

If they are new Model Rugers, I think you only have to remove a screw and spring in the back to make them free spin.

I always do this and see if they free spin quietly.  If they click as they spin, the pawl  (hand) is rubbing against the cylinder sprockets and causing friction and wear.  I have that addressed and sometimes return them so they do not free spin.  But tis good to reduce the wear.

 

http://marauder.homestead.com/files/FreeSpin.html

[Big Horn Bari]

43 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OP, switch cylinder pins and see if that changes anything. 

I just tried this and   The hammer can now be pulled back with the trigger depressed!!!  At least with snap caps.   Before I posted here, I actually tried switching the cylinders and keeping the pins the same but that had no effect.  I didn't think swap just the pins.. Can you explain to me how an why that changes the operation? 

[Cholla]

11 minutes ago, Big Horn Bari said:

I just tried this and   The hammer can now be pulled back with the trigger depressed!!!  At least with snap caps.   Before I posted here, I actually tried switching the cylinders and keeping the pins the same but that had no effect.  I didn't think swap just the pins.. Can you explain to me how an why that changes the operation? 

Don't ask. OLG just knows things that aren't for mortal minds to contemplate. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Check the movement of the spring loaded pin at the end of the cylinder pin from the problem gun.

[Big Horn Bari]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Check the movement of the spring loaded pin at the end of the cylinder pin from the problem gun.

I believe that was the culprit.  That pin must have been dirty and binding on the problem gun.  The pins on both guns are moving freely right now and I can interchange them between both guns with no issues.

 

Thanks all who contributed here.  And much thanks to OLG for the fix. 

 

I officially step up to Senior category as of today and I learned something new.  It's a good day.

[Shawnee Hills]

That's awesome that it worked!  Much easier fix than tearing the gun down.  The pins were fine in mine so switching from gun to gun made no difference.  I had no choice but to modify the transfer bar.  Glad that you didn't have to mess with that.

[Pb Mark]

One of my NM Ruger's lost the pin at the end of the cylinder pin.  Put it back in and attempted to squeeze crimp it back in place...a failed attempt.

Think the Belt Mountain replacement cylinder pins were a good investment for both revolvers.  Do not know if the better experienced folks typically upgrade their Ruger cylinder pins but they seem to be better built.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

I hate to keep hammering (Pun??) this at ya (No I don't).  You aren't going to be chasing that elusive Brass Ring anytime soon.  Trying to go faster than you actually can is a slippery road to disaster.  I totally agree with the above guys telling you to skip the "Slip Hammering".  First get real good at hitting ALL of your targets, PULLING THE TRIGGER.  Get consistent.  Then get your transitions down.  Then get good with your shotgun.  Whilst doing all of this, keep in mind, SPEED only comes with PRACTICE.  If you aren't shooting 500 rounds a week in practice, Slip Hammer won't do you a bit of good.

[Null N. Void]

I slip hammer and do well with it.  If it works, don't worry about it.  Practice and a timer will tell the story.  If you're faster one way or another, the timer tells.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

3 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

I slip hammer and do well with it.  If it works, don't worry about it.  Practice and a timer will tell the story.  If you're faster one way or another, the timer tells.

I also slip hammer, as do many of the better shooters that I shoot with and watch.  It works very well for some people, less so for others.  N&V is right-- find out what works for you and practice that.

 

Personally I like being able to maintain my solid strong hand grip with all of my fingers, rather than having to keep moving one finger.  And I find it is nearly impossible to retract a trigger finger without imparting a tiny bit of wrist rotation (try it with arm extended), which for me is sometimes enough to move the 5" barrel off target.  But different things work best under a timer for different people.  

[Griff]

On 5/27/2023 at 4:08 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

...Whilst doing all of this, keep in mind, SPEED only comes with PRACTICE.  If you aren't shooting 500 rounds a week in practice, Slip Hammer won't do you a bit of good.

After his first EOT win, I happened to ask China Camp how many rounds he fired in practice, leading up to his win... He told me for the year prior, in practice alone, he'd fired 50,000 rounds.  So if you only practice with 500 rounds a week... you ain't practicing ENOUGH!  As I doubt the top shooters are doing less if not more than the 750-1,000 rounds a week China Camp did!  And remember, this was 30+ years ago!

[Dantankerous]

There are many, many other techniques and tricks to this game to speed your times than slip hammering. Work on overall accuracy, transitions and shotgun manipulation first.

 

Those will keep you busy for a while.

 

 

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

I find shooting with my eyes open also helps 

[Big Horn Bari]

14 hours ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

I find shooting with my eyes open also helps 

 

Best advice yet!  I hear that's what all the really fast guys do.  I don't know if I'm ready for that yet. 

[Eyesa Horg]

17 hours ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

I find shooting with my eyes open also helps 

And breathing as well

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Eyes open, keep breathing.

Now you tell me!!!

[Eyesa Horg]

2 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Eyes open, keep breathing.

Now you tell me!!!

I know!!! And be able to count to at least 5 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

When shooting, I always work to count no higher than 4 and preferable 2 or 3.  No kidding here.

 

Studies and experience has show that in mildly stressful situations, you can speed and count very far.