NCIS episode

[Rye Miles #13621]

I was watching NCIS last night and to condense this story, it was about a Russian bad guy who had devised a plan to attack the WHOLE ENTIRE USA ELECTRIC GRID which would in fact "end civilization as we know it" they said. Well, it never happened but my question is......IS THIS POSSIBLE?

WHADYA THINK?

I don't know enough about the grid to have a theory.

Any grid experts out there??

[Subdeacon Joe]

Look up Northeast Blackout of 1965  One failed relay took out a sizeable portion of the power grid:

 

This is just my WAG, but I bet fewer than 20 sites could be taken out to cut power to 90% of North America.

[Rye Miles #13621]

30 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

Look up Northeast Blackout of 1965  One failed relay took out a sizeable portion of the power grid:

 

This is just my WAG, but I bet fewer than 20 sites could be taken out to cut power to 90% of North America.

Here's one in 2003 

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/blackout-hits-northeast-united-states

 

[Yul Lose]

I sold a used pick up to a guy about 6 years ago that was employed by the local power company. His job was managing a crew that were “hardening” electric substations. According to him there are certain key electrical distribution points across the country that if they are put out of commission it would take years to rebuild the grid and he speculated that tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions would die as a result of the total loss of power. So based on what he told me I’d have to say it’s a real possibility.

[Cypress Sun]

Keep in mind that Texas is on it's own generates it's own electrical energy is on it's own grid that is completely separate from the rest of the US. In this scenario, that would be an upside. There is a downside as witnessed in 2021 during the "great Texas freeze" when parts of Texas were without power for weeks.

 

I don't know if an individual without nuclear weapon capability could completely disable or destroy the grid system. I'm sure they could do a bunch of damage via computer damaging sabotage, but the entire grid? Possible I guess.

 

Countries with nukes and ICBM's could completely destroy our grid system, along with many other electrical items, with EMP nuclear devices. That would mean nuclear war with the culprit though, so at that point...I don't think the grid will mean that much anyway. Once one nuke flies, they'll all fly.

 

The sun could also destroy the grid system (or at least cause severe damage), along with many other electrical items. Nothing we can do about that though. 

 

 

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

Yes, I think an EM Pulse, either from a high altitude nuke or originating from the sun is what we have to be most concerned about.

A mass solar ejection like that which hit the earth in 1859 would be catastrophic today. There have been others since then, but we have been lucky.

Hopefully, efforts to harden the infrastructure against EMPs will be far enough along to save most of us, when one happens and we are in it's path.

The other effects of such a hit on earth, such as the climate change it will trigger, are for another time.

[J-BAR #18287]

Instead of huge Chernobyl-like power plants, we should be building and using a whole lot of "neighborhood" sized nuclear power plants, maybe one for every 200,000 people.  One has a problem, the others can pick up the slack.  Redundancy is safety.

 

Geez if the French can use atomic power we should be able to.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Our lives depend on electricity for everything. Natural gas, water, gas at the gas station, refrigeration, communication, hospitals ( they have a 3 day supply of fuel for the generators).

Any shutdown of the grid not restored within a week would result in chaos and lots and lots of deaths.

 

Imagine going to the sink and no water as the system is down, no pumps. Exception are water towers but once empty they can't be refilled.

5 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Geez if the French can use atomic power we should be able to.

We can. But the "greenies" won't let us.

[ShadowCatcher]

4 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Instead of huge Chernobyl-like power plants, we should be building and using a whole lot of "neighborhood" sized nuclear power plants, maybe one for every 200,000 people.  One has a problem, the others can pick up the slack.  Redundancy is safety.

 

Geez if the French can use atomic power we should be able to.

That is a very viable and "green" solution to the energy/pollution problem, but it violates

the green agenda of driving folks back into a pre-industrial life style.  They can't accept that as

it promulgates the desire to consume more energy and develop as a civilization. 

 

SC

 

 

[Cactus Jack Calder]

3 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Here's one in 2003 

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/blackout-hits-northeast-united-states

 

Rye,

I worked on that outage. I was a System Operator for Orange and Rockland Utilities in NY at that time. As stated in the article the outage started in the Ohio area, cascaded through Canada into New York State. My company on the NY-NJ border went down as well as most if not all of NY State. Fortunately our ties to Public Service of NJ separated and PSE&G remained in service. Once we determined that PSE&G had power we requested and received a helping hand in restarting generating plants in our territory. These plants were used to help CONED of NYC to begin restoring their generation capacity. Then the Utilities north of us were assisted in restoration.
This sounds fairly simple but was a carefully coordinated effort fraught with complications. These efforts were overseen by the Power Authority of the State of New York (PASNY). This entity is NOT a NY State agency but a cooperative public-benefit corporation of the NY Utilities. 
 

It is important to note that this outage was the result of a natural disaster incident, primarily due to poor maintenance of Transmission Line ROW.  A well coordinated sabotage effort without the EMPs of a nuke strike could cause a lot of damage. However, just as PSE&G separated from NY there are protections built into the grid. Obviously that protection system should have kept the outage more localized, so there were failures in design or maintenance along the line. Maintenance and good design are critical to that protection being successful. Also, as many have noted in other posts, our grid is in need of improvement. Just based on projected loads it is going to fall short in some areas. 
 

I live in NC now. Just this last December there as an attack on the local grid. Some people shot a couple of transformers and took out a good bit of my local County for 4-5 days. This was a coordinated attack by parties unknown, at least to the general public. It would take a tremendous coordinated effort to make it nation wide. Not saying it can’t be done, just hope that there is enough loose chatter to expose the effort before it is implemented.

 

I’m retired 18 years now, so nobody listens the the old fart anymore. Don’t count on me getting the grid upgraded.

 

Just for Alpo & Pat, OTTO MUST DIE!!

 

CJ

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

4 hours ago, ShadowCatcher said:

That is a very viable and "green" solution to the energy/pollution problem, but it violates

the green agenda of driving folks back into a pre-industrial life style.  They can't accept that as

it promulgates the desire to consume more energy and develop as a civilization. 

 

SC

 

 

Unless, of course, they make money off of it. Then they'd be fine with it.

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

8 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I was watching NCIS last night and to condense this story, it was about a Russian bad guy who had devised a plan to attack the WHOLE ENTIRE USA ELECTRIC GRID which would in fact "end civilization as we know it" they said. Well, it never happened but my question is......IS THIS POSSIBLE?

WHADYA THINK?

I don't know enough about the grid to have a theory.

Any grid experts out there??

 

Dear Uncle Rye,

                        Have you been drinking with Uncle Alpo lately ?  

[Rye Miles #13621]

13 minutes ago, Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 said:

 

Dear Uncle Rye,

                        Have you been drinking with Uncle Alpo lately ?  

Ha ha!!! 

[Choctaw Jack]

I read an article years ago about the Carrington Event back in the 1800's. Melted the telegraph wires right off of the insulators. I hate to think what would happen if we were hit by a solar flare of that magnitude today.

Another article said that if terrorists took out as few as 6 distribution nodes at the same time, the whole country would lose power.

Makes you think.

[ShadowCatcher]

1 hour ago, Choctaw Jack said:

I read an article years ago about the Carrington Event back in the 1800's. Melted the telegraph wires right off of the insulators. I hate to think what would happen if we were hit by a solar flare of that magnitude today.

Another article said that if terrorists took out as few as 6 distribution nodes at the same time, the whole country would lose power.

Makes you think.

Simply put, after a solar EMP similar to the Carrington event there would be a very ugly die off.  Airplanes will fall from the skies and boats, trains and cars, frankly anything using a computer, will cease operating. Power goes out so all hospitals will run out of power once their Back-up Power supplies run out of gas, and refrigeration will generally cease for grocery stores.  It will become 1850 all over again, with no electric anywhere.  What ever food and ammunition you have at hand will be it until you find a new source.  The very thin veneer of civilization will just go away.  If you haven't enough food to last you until you can grow replacement crops and harvest enough wildlife to survive, as well as means and skills to defend you and your supplies from predatory humans, then you wont need to worry about when it will go back to normal.  TEOTWAWKI - something the preppers worry about and some even hope for - just to test their theories!

 

SC

[Subdeacon Joe]

2 hours ago, Choctaw Jack said:

Carrington Event

 

https://scijinks.gov/what-was-the-carrington-event/

 

https://www.space.com/the-carrington-event

[Subdeacon Joe]

An excellent series.  First episode is about the 1965 event.

 

https://archive.org/details/ConnectionsByJamesBurke

[Oak Ridge Regulator]

I can see there’s a lot of panic about solar flares ending civilization as we know it but fear not, #1 you will know way in advance before that flare hits ( this isn’t the 1800s we watch the sun 24 hours a day) you can watch it yourself on line at a number of different sights. telecommunication satilites are hardened against both solar flares and EMP produced by nukes and will shut systems down until the pulse passes, # 2 planes won’t be flying and trains won’t be running if a flare/EMP pulse that destructive is on its way and grid power stations are already hardened against anything but a nuke level pulse in most places ( not all but most big stations ) #3 shutting down your electric powered devices ( both AC and DC ) including your cell phones and cars until after the pulse passes will protect the majority of your devices. #4 if your not turned towards the sun as the main pulse hits the earth’s body is going to negate a large amount of the effect.

  Not saying a huge solar flare won’t cause a shit show in lots of places but I would worry more about Mother Nature, a terrorist strike could take down a large grid area but utility crews can get to the systems to fix them. Ask people who’s areas have been hit by a hurricane or earthquake where every single pole is gone, every transformer, the roads, nothing left to work with, short of a nuke nothing trumps Mother Nature.

  Buy a propane generator and a 500 gallon bulk tank, propane never gos bad and no one can steal your gas, you will survive !  And your beer will stay cold

[Subdeacon Joe]

13 minutes ago, Oak Ridge Regulator said:

Buy a propane generator and a 500 gallon bulk tank,

 

Great for rural.  But for the 80% or more who live in urban or suburban areas it really isn't an option.

[Choctaw Jack]

A question for those that know:

How will an EMP or a mass coronal ejection impact a solar panel? Do they need to be protected by a Farraday cage?

Just wondering...

[Cypress Sun]

1 hour ago, Oak Ridge Regulator said:

I can see there’s a lot of panic about solar flares ending civilization as we know it but fear not, #1 you will know way in advance before that flare hits ( this isn’t the 1800s we watch the sun 24 hours a day) you can watch it yourself on line at a number of different sights. telecommunication satilites are hardened against both solar flares and EMP produced by nukes and will shut systems down until the pulse passes, # 2 planes won’t be flying and trains won’t be running if a flare/EMP pulse that destructive is on its way and grid power stations are already hardened against anything but a nuke level pulse in most places ( not all but most big stations ) #3 shutting down your electric powered devices ( both AC and DC ) including your cell phones and cars until after the pulse passes will protect the majority of your devices. #4 if your not turned towards the sun as the main pulse hits the earth’s body is going to negate a large amount of the effect.

  Not saying a huge solar flare won’t cause a shit show in lots of places but I would worry more about Mother Nature, a terrorist strike could take down a large grid area but utility crews can get to the systems to fix them. Ask people who’s areas have been hit by a hurricane or earthquake where every single pole is gone, every transformer, the roads, nothing left to work with, short of a nuke nothing trumps Mother Nature.

  Buy a propane generator and a 500 gallon bulk tank, propane never gos bad and no one can steal your gas, you will survive !  And your beer will stay cold

 

Generators make noise, a lot of noise...especially when everything else is silent.

Just sayin.

[John Kloehr]

2 hours ago, Choctaw Jack said:

A question for those that know:

How will an EMP or a mass coronal ejection impact a solar panel? Do they need to be protected by a Farraday cage?

Just wondering...

Not much of an impact as long as it is not connected to long wires.

 

Long wires (the original telegraph system, phone lines, and power distribution lines) can get current flowing through them and the voltages can cause damage. Just disconnect and the equipment will be fine.

 

But the long power lines and distribution equipment can still get damaged. Another concern is gas distribution lines. Some scenarios predict enough current through the pipes to melt and breach the natural gas lines.

 

Also of concern is nuclear power plants, they rely on external power. Generator systems are designed to bridge short interruptions to power, not a months-long outage.

 

There has been a lot of system hardening and contingency planning since I read a (public) report many years ago. At that time, outages and rotating blackouts had the potential to last years. There was even concern the country might lose the ability to build replacement equipment, due to a lack of the same replacement equipment. Some of it is that critical! Since then, much of the information regarding upgrades and preparations is no longer public as it documents infrastructure vulnerabilities.

[Chicago kidd]

I watch a documentary i think it was about yellowstone blowing up they said every 600 000 years and its been longer than that now and if it does it will cause another ice age by blacking the the entire state and dropping the temperatures across the us not sure if thats possible but who knows

[Rip Snorter]

I try to restrict myself to worrying about things where my behavior can influence the outcome.  I live in Montana.  If Yellowstone goes, I'm pretty well toast.  It never even  enters my worry gerbil wheel.

[Irish Pat]

at the southern tip of Concordia Parish Louisiana there is a hydroelectric power plant that keeps the Mississippi river flowing to Baton Rouge and New Orleans. if it was destroyed during a flood stage the river would divert to the Achafalya river and wash away Morgan City and leave shipping unable to use the New Orleans and Baton Rouge ports. That would cause all shipping on the river to shut down

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

17 minutes ago, Irish-Pat said:

at the southern tip of Concordia Parish Louisiana there is a hydroelectric power plant that keeps the Mississippi river flowing to Baton Rouge and New Orleans. if it was destroyed during a flood stage the river would divert to the Achafalya river and wash away Morgan City and leave shipping unable to use the New Orleans and Baton Rouge ports. That would cause all shipping on the river to shut down

 

  ............... that would probably be bad ......  

[watab kid]

long as the government keeps pushing us int more electric use we will continue to be subservientl to the system , 

[Texas Joker]

17 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

Not much of an impact as long as it is not connected to long wires.

 

Long wires (the original telegraph system, phone lines, and power distribution lines) can get current flowing through them and the voltages can cause damage. Just disconnect and the equipment will be fine.

 

But the long power lines and distribution equipment can still get damaged. Another concern is gas distribution lines. Some scenarios predict enough current through the pipes to melt and breach the natural gas lines.

 

 .

Power lines are long wires...

 

Transformers are 2 sets of long wires...

If an emp blows the transformers estimates are a couple YEARS to replace them... very few are made in usa. Solar flare will slag them.

 

The sun is a giant nuclear explosion that isn't finished yet. So in comparison to a human nuke the level of power is unexplainable. Literally brain cannot grasp the difference. A CME in the mid X category will put widespread transmission of electricity off the table.

 

Your house, office building or apartment building has a network of long wires in the walls. When the insulation burns off do you think the fire stops there?

 

If Carrington happened today much different outcome.

 

 

 

 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

That episode episode has a few significant errors 

 

they claim top secret documents but the cover sheets are only SECRET.

 

THEY fake a retinal scan with a picture of an iris. A retinal scan is a picture through the pupil of the retina.

 

Minsk is in Belarus, not Russia.

 

 

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

 ...... picky, picky, picky,   ......... but I, too, agree with you and am, therefore, just as picky .... perhaps moreso ....  

[sassnetguy50]

On 5/24/2023 at 9:47 AM, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Great for rural.  But for the 80% or more who live in urban or suburban areas it really isn't an option.

 

On 5/24/2023 at 10:53 AM, Cypress Sun said:

 

Generators make noise, a lot of noise...especially when everything else is silent.

Just sayin.

Urban people won't survive anyway.  If there isn't enough space for a generator there isn't enough space for sustainable food.

 

Bury it.  

[watab kid]

the push to make everything electric and at the same time shut down our power plants will result in all of us being at the mercy of who controls the power and where they allow it to go , unless you are fortunate enough to have a hydro source on your property and the equipment to generate power - i do and i dont ,