Black Powder Substitute

[Nightlatch]

   I have a question about American Pioneer Powder. I have been shooting Black Powder since the early ‘80’s, and I thought I would try a substitute. I bought a couple lbs of APP in FFF granulation. It is very course vs FFF Black Powder, it is actually courser than FF Black Powder. Is this normal, or do I have a mis labeled container? I tried calling the dealer I got it from and also the manufacturer but was unsuccessful. This stuff does not feed well in my Dillon 550.

   What is y’all’s input? 
 

[Crisco]

Much coarser than 2F or even 1F BP. I will not run it through a powder measure, it’s worse than pumice. I like it as a sub, but always use dippers to load it. 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I too dip it (into .32 H&R mags for my wife).  Try Triple Seven for a finer-grained sub.  However, load it sparingly as it is a potent sub.  

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I recently loaded several hundred .38's on my 550 with Shooter's World Multi-Black, which is made by APP, and it metered fine.  I don't know if the granulation size is exactly the same as APP or not.  I'm sure @Scarlett could verify.

[Nightlatch]

Yep, I dipped it as well. It was quite different looking & smelling powder, kinda strange smell. Just thought I’d try it out. Thanks for your input. 

[Dantankerous]

I stack discs on my Lee Classic Turret press to load FFFg APP in 45 Colt. Works pretty good. Like you, the granulation of APP's FFFg does seem larger than real black. Works well enough though.

[Tequila Shooter]

I use a xl650 with the powder measure, make sure you’re using the large charge bar.  But then again I don’t really meter it, the charge bar is set to almost fill the case. 

[Too Tall Bob]

APP 3F is coarser than what you are used to in true black. I load it with my dillon 550 using the Dillon powder feed with no problems. That being said -  Last fall I got 3 lbs of 2F that was mislabeled as being 3F. 2F will not feed  worth a darn through the Dillon powder feeder due to the size of the grains. They (2F) are big and very angular and will bridge the mouth of the powder funnel. 
 

[Tequila Shooter]

Yeah I forgot to mention to use 3F. 

[Sedalia Dave]

I've loaded tens of thousands of 38 specials with 3F APP through my Dillon SDB with no bridging issues. Use the large charge bar.

You do need to thoroughly clean the powder measure and powder die when you finish. Clean mine with hot soapy water and a couple nylon bottle brushes. 

 

To keep the powder funnel/expander from rusting I make sure it is dry inside and out and then spray it with Hornady 1 Shot gun lube. 1 Shot is a dry film lube and one it dries powder will not stick to it.

[Warden Callaway]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

I've loaded tens of thousands of 38 specials with 3F APP through my Dillon SDB with no bridging issues. Use the large charge bar.

You do need to thoroughly clean the powder measure and powder die when you finish. Clean mine with hot soapy water and a couple nylon bottle brushes. 

 

To keep the powder funnel/expander from rusting I make sure it is dry inside and out and then spray it with Hornady 1 Shot gun lube. 1 Shot is a dry film lube and one it dries powder will not stick to it.

 

Me too.  But with BlackMZ.  Also polished the hopper funnel. 

 

[Scarlett]

5 hours ago, Nightlatch said:

   I have a question about American Pioneer Powder. I have been shooting Black Powder since the early ‘80’s, and I thought I would try a substitute. I bought a couple lbs of APP in FFF granulation. It is very course vs FFF Black Powder, it is actually courser than FF Black Powder. Is this normal, or do I have a mis labeled container? I tried calling the dealer I got it from and also the manufacturer but was unsuccessful. This stuff does not feed well in my Dillon 550.

   What is y’all’s input? 
 

Howdy Nightlatch - I replied to your email a little while ago. I must have missed your call while I was at the range. I’m in Delaware shooting the state match. Send me pictures - I, too, am wondering if your jars were mislabeled? Were all three the same? 
 

As for Shooters World Multi-Black, it is made by APP. The label on the jar says 3F. When it first came out Brett, the owner of APP, said it was the “same formula as Black MZ that APP made for Alliant”.  
 

I’ve loaded thousands of rounds on my 650 and don’t have any bridging or anything. It is dusty but I clean everything up after a loading session. I’m not quite as thorough as @Sedalia Dave… something to aspire for! 
 

I’ll forward your concerns to Brett and let you know what I find out. Shooting tomorrow and Sunday. Home Tuesday. I WILL be in touch. 
 

Big hugs!

Scarlett

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

I’ve used 2F and 3F APP for years.  I’ve not seen any mislabeled containers.  I also picked up several pounds of Alliant Black MZ when Sportsman’s Warehouse was closing it out.

 

My MEC uses a sliding bar powder measure and appears to measure well but that is a larger volume cavity than most people are using for pistol ammo.

 

I get good results metering APP with a rotating drum measure.  My Hornady LNL-AP came with this type of measure.  The problem is that Hornady steel parts are quick to discolor and to rust and I am too lazy to disassemble my powder measure after each APP/MZ loading session.

 

My workaround was to purchase a Lee Auto Drum powder measure mounted atop a Lee Powder Through Expander Die for my Frontier Cartridge loads.  It’s another rotating drum measure but the parts that contact the powder are made of nylon and pot metal.  I can easily clean the steel internals of the powder die and riser at the end of the session.  It’s pretty consistent in handling the subs although I always use an RCBS Lockout Die to verify my charge.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

OK!! 

 

And HI SCARLETT 

 

I'm with the guys that have been running 3f APP thru DILLON powder measures.  I've loaded several thousands.  Loaded 38s, .44 Special, .45 Schofield, and Cowboy 45 Special.  3F meters just fine so long as you use the LARGE Powder Bar.  I get an occasional "bridge" but with my Powder Alarm, no problem, just slows me down a little.

 

I have found 2F to be useless unless it's "scooped."  It bridges terribly in my DILLON measure.  BUT:  I run 2f, scooped, for my All Brass 12Ga.  Scooped for the 12Ga, 2F is perfect.

 

I'll repeat, just for grins and giggles, APP does NOT like the small Powder Bar.  Kinda like trying to eat peanuts without yer dentures.

[Scarlett]

And HI SCARLETT !! 
 

Hi @Colorado Coffinmaker!!

 

Big hugs!

Scarlett

[Toby Two Mules]

Why not use real black ? Its plentiful and less expensive generally !

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

I too use my 550 to prep my cases but I use the Lyman #55 powder measure to charge my cases with BP separately.  I've used 2F and 3F powders with no problem.  Both real BP and subs metered well with my Lyman.  It's a little slow process but it works.  I also shoot smokeless using my 550 to load, I just hate on going through cleaning up my 550 after loading BP.  Good enough for me.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

For a long time I would only shoot the Holy Black Powder.

It just keeps getting harder and harder to get. 

I tried APP 3f a few years ago and was impressed with the power and the amount of smoke.

Also the fact it's self lubrication and don't need any special lubrication or any lubrication for that matter .

Fill up the cartridge with a Lee dipper , Press on a bullet and your good to go.

When Gander mountain went belly up .

Everything was 50% off .

So I bought everything the store had for APP 2f 3f 4f .

Round ball 32 36 & 44 .

And every Remington #10 they had on hand .

Yes it was a expensive day .

But it was all 50% off .

So I'm shooting APP for life now .

I miss the Holey Grail Black Flash and Flame .

I have found that 32 really shoots great with 4f Powder. 

I did load with dippers 99% of the time when loading cartridges. 

But as of the last year or maybe two or three  I guess .

I have been rolling paper cartridges and shooting only Cap Guns. 

It's time consuming but a lot of fun and shooting goes much slower now too .

You really can't go wrong with APP if your not shooting the real deal .

So Saith The Rooster. 

[Kansas Annie]

I also run mine thru the Lee auto drum on my turret press.  So far, so good.  I do eyeball the load when I pull it off to add filler. 

This brings me to another question.  I'm loading light for my .45 colts. edit, just realized I posted load data.  One pistol runs it fine, one gets too dirty after 3 stages and my '66 yellowboy will jamb after 4 stages.  Is it the powder or the corn meal?  Has anyone had similar issues? 

 

All 3 guns are Uberti.  1860 Mason conversion, Dakota SAA & '66 Winchester.

 

[Sedalia Dave]

2 minutes ago, Kansas Annie said:

I also run mine thru the Lee auto drum on my turret press.  So far, so good.  I do eyeball the load when I pull it off to add filler. 

This brings me to another question.  I'm loading light for my .45 colts.  .7cc topped with corn meal & 200gr coated bullets.  Chrono on pistols is +-406 (PF 81.2), rifle +-593 (PF 118.6)  One pistol runs it fine, one gets too dirty after 3 stages and my '66 yellowboy will jamb after 4 stages.  Is it the powder or the corn meal?  Has anyone had similar issues? 

 

All 3 guns are Uberti.  1860 Mason conversion, Dakota SAA & '66 Winchester.

 

No where near enough powder. Whether shooting real BP or Subs, mouse fart loads will cause you nothing but problems. 
 The lack of sufficient recoil is actually slowing you down as your split times are greater than they would be with more recoil. 
 

I shoot more powder that that in my 38s. Using APP I can easily shoot 18 stages with no issues. No swabbing barrels, pulling cylinders, or anything else. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

56 minutes ago, Kansas Annie said:

I also run mine thru the Lee auto drum on my turret press.  So far, so good.  I do eyeball the load when I pull it off to add filler. 

This brings me to another question.  I'm loading light for my .45 colts. edit, just realized I posted load data.  One pistol runs it fine, one gets too dirty after 3 stages and my '66 yellowboy will jamb after 4 stages.  Is it the powder or the corn meal?  Has anyone had similar issues? 

 

All 3 guns are Uberti.  1860 Mason conversion, Dakota SAA & '66 Winchester.

 

Annie, even medium power loads in a 45 Colt case will get the guns dirty since there is not enough pressure to seal the chamber, and fouling gets back past the case into the action on the rifle.  This gets worse with lighter loads, and worse still shooting smoky stuff since there is more fouling.  Spritzing the carrier every couple of stages can help keep it running, but really those are too light as Sedalia Dave said.  Might be close to failing the smoke minimum as well.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

12 hours ago, Kansas Annie said:

I also run mine thru the Lee auto drum on my turret press.  So far, so good.  I do eyeball the load when I pull it off to add filler. 

This brings me to another question.  I'm loading light for my .45 colts. edit, just realized I posted load data.  One pistol runs it fine, one gets too dirty after 3 stages and my '66 yellowboy will jamb after 4 stages.  Is it the powder or the corn meal?  Has anyone had similar issues? 

 

All 3 guns are Uberti.  1860 Mason conversion, Dakota SAA & '66 Winchester.

 

Don't ad filler ! 

I use no filler and have Zero issues with any set of guns I use.

[Dantankerous]

I noticed cleaner guns with more APP powder. For what it's worth. I can do 7 stages with my current loads w/o any problems.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

KANSAS ANNIE,

 

The problem/problems you are experiencing are from Blow-By.  The 45Colt case WILL NOT expand enough to seal the chamber in your Uberti 1866.  Heavy loads WILL NOT fix the problem.  The only fixes for Blow-By in your rifle are Annealing of the cases or to start with 44-40 cases.  Run 44-40 cases carefully thru your 45Colt dies then fire form them to 45Colt.  Blow-by will stop.

 

Your Hand Guns are fouling at the Barrel/Cylinder gap and or the Arbor (1860) or the Cylinder Bushing (Dakota).  Keep a small SPRITZ bottle of PAM handy.  With pam onna rag, Wipe down the cylinder face between stages.

 

Regardless of what anyone CLAIMS, APP does not like Air Space in the case.  You DO need filler with reduced loads and I usually recommend Cream-0-Wheat.  Cream-0-Wheat does not compress.  That caution NOT to leave air space on the APP bottle is there for a reason.

[Griff]

I've loaded 3FAPP on my 550C using the large charge bar.  I've only loaded in Cowboy45Special, but it meters fine.  No vibrator on powder hopper.  I didn't compress it, but loaded to about the base of the 160RFN I use.  It fouled my rifles worse than my 45 Colts using Goex Cartridge.  Hard to get enthused about a sub when the fouling is worse than real black.  

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Hey Griff!!

 

Just because!!  Actually I have loaded lots and lots of APP in Cowboy 45 Special cases.  You are correctly loading without compression (you already knew that ) but C45S cases suffer the same Blow-By Malady as regular 45 Colt cases.  WILL NOT expand to seal the chamber without annealing.  My Henry Trapper (16 inch barrel) and my '73 Trapper (16 inch barrel) both are set up to run C45S.  With annealed cases, they run as clean as Bottle Neck Suppositories.

 

I don't have a "real" problem with C45S cases in my handguns though.  Blow-By yes but I do keep a nice rag (Old T Shirt pieces) and a spritzer of PAM handy to wipe the Cylinder Face.  I do run close tolerances on the Barrel/Cylinder gap.

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Hey Griff!!

 

Just because!!  Actually I have loaded lots and lots of APP in Cowboy 45 Special cases.  You are correctly loading without compression (you already knew that ) but C45S cases suffer the same Blow-By Malady as regular 45 Colt cases.  WILL NOT expand to seal the chamber without annealing.  My Henry Trapper (16 inch barrel) and my '73 Trapper (16 inch barrel) both are set up to run C45S.  With annealed cases, they run as clean as Bottle Neck Suppositories.

 

I don't have a "real" problem with C45S cases in my handguns though.  Blow-By yes but I do keep a nice rag (Old T Shirt pieces) and a spritzer of PAM handy to wipe the Cylinder Face.  I do run close tolerances on the Barrel/Cylinder gap.

I just hate annealing!  But... when I get the Henry Trapper, I'll probably have to!  I don't have problems with my handguns...  The 1851s as set up by Rowdy Yates are pretty much flawless.  If only I could graft on some butterfly thumbs, I'd be unbeatable!  (Maybe)!!  (I could still occasionally mess up)!  No suppository handguns here... unless the range forbids BP due to fire hazards...!!!  

[DeaconKC]

Due to advice from @Colorado Coffinmaker I can run my rifles with 45 Colt by not loading mouse fart loads. Using a solid load [7.5 grains of Unique under 200 grain RNFP] I have very little blowback.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Hi there Deacon 

 

Yep.  You still get Blow-By with Smokeless, just not as bad as with BP or Subs.  I was always able to shoot an entire Match and Side-Matches with smokeless.  The blow-By normally encountered with Smokeless doesn't usually tie up the rifle.  May slow it down a little but no biggie deal.  BP and Subs WILL tie up a rifle.  Before annealing, I always had a smallish spritz bottle of PAM on my Kart to squirt the Carrier Block and Breach Block.

 

44s, on the other hand, will, in very short order, foul out the chamber to the point it needs swabbed to continue.  Usually fouling out in a single stage.

 

Annealed cases may be a little sticky (expanded) on extraction but the rifle WILL run clean.  In fact, the rifle will run clean for multiple matches (Don't ask how I know this fact )

[Scarlett]

On 5/22/2023 at 4:43 PM, DeaconKC said:

Due to advice from @Colorado Coffinmaker I can run my rifles with 45 Colt by not loading mouse fart loads. Using a solid load [7.5 grains of Unique under 200 grain RNFP] I have very little blowback.

FYI - I offer 200gr bullets sized to .454 which help reduce the blowby. Coated or lubed. 
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[DeaconKC]

Just now, Scarlett said:

FYI - I offer 200gr bullets sized to .454 which help reduce the blowby. Coated or lubed. 
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

Clark & Gina keep me well supplied! But thank you!

[Scarlett]

Just now, DeaconKC said:

Clark & Gina keep me well supplied! But thank you!

Well then you are in EXCELLENT hands!!