Primer backing out of 44-40 brass

[The Revenuer]

I have had at least one primer partially back out of my 44-40 brass after shooting it in my 1873 rifle and we found a second one on the range that I think is most likely mine. .  I am loading APP powder.   What are the possible causes for this?

 

 

[Ya Big Tree]

The only time I've had that happen was a light powder charge.  

[Goody, SASS #26190]

2 minutes ago, Ya Big Tree said:

The only time I've had that happen was a light powder charge.  

Yep. Every time a shot isfired the primer backs out. You have to have enough powder that the shell is propelled backwards into the the bolt or recoil shield to re-seat the primer.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Excessive Head Space allows the primer to "back out" as well.   To have backed out that far, there has to be considerable excessive Head Space and excessive slop in the Toggle Links.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Headspace issues or the bolt wasn't closed all the way.

Get it ck'd out ASAP.

[Dallas McBoomboom]

Hey Rev, great shooting with you at Spring Round Up! Typically a light load is the first suspect, and the easiest to address before getting into gunsmithing. I'd be happy to share my load data with you, I've never had this problem. It's like this: 

1) Pour black powder into case until full. 

2) Brush off excess from case mouth.

3) Cram bullet on top.

 

POSSE 6!

 

Dallas

[Scarlett]

 APP does NOT require or like to be compressed like real black powder. I have had that happen with my pistols but never my rifle. Are you seating your primers really well to start with? 

 

very SLIGHT compression is ok.

 

hugs!

Scarlett
 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

The OP is loading APP not real black powder.  Here are cartridge loading instructions from the manufacturer of APP:

 

 

(Heed Scarlett's warning.)

[Dallas McBoomboom]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

 APP does NOT require or like to be compressed like real black powder. I have had that happen with my pistols but never my rifle. Are you seating your primers really well to start with? 

 

very SLIGHT compression is ok.

 

hugs!

Scarlett
 

Scarlett is right, I didn't see it was APP. Don't compress it.  

[Griff]

Since mechanical issues have been addressed, I'll add a couple of others:  Have you removed the trigger block safety?   Put it back in.   Have you drilled out flash holes to use ammo as blanks?  Quit using that brass for live ammo.  Or... how any reloads on that particular brass?  If it doesn't split, eventually, the brass will fatigue enough that it won't hold primers.  Possibly hundreds of reloads later... but... it will eventually!   Have you recently changed brand of primer?  Are you sure your new primers meet specifications?  

[The Revenuer]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

Since mechanical issues have been addressed, I'll add a couple of others:  Have you removed the trigger block safety?   Put it back in.   Have you drilled out flash holes to use ammo as blanks?  Quit using that brass for live ammo.  Or... how any reloads on that particular brass?  If it doesn't split, eventually, the brass will fatigue enough that it won't hold primers.  Possibly hundreds of reloads later... but... it will eventually!   Have you recently changed brand of primer?  Are you sure your new primers meet specifications?  

Trigger safety is in place.  The rifle is basically new (January).  Not using any ammo for blanks.  The piece of brass in the picture is of unknown age, it was purchased from another cowboy when 44-40 brass was impossible to find.  Always use Federal Primers.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Tell us how you loaded the APP in the 44-40 cartridge.  Was there any space between the powder load and the bottom of the bullet?

 

I have seen primers back out in revolvers with light loads but not in rifles.  That primer is out pretty far and would have locked up a revolver for sure.

[Scarlett]

7 hours ago, Dallas McPewPew said:

Scarlett is right

The BEST sentence EVER! Might make bumper stickers!   Thank you @Dallas McPewPew  

 

Big “You KNOW I’m right” hugs!

 

Scarlett

[Savvy Jack]

Unless the primer is loose and falling out, there is not enough aft force from the blast to keep the primer pushed in after ramming into the face of the bolt.
Too light of a load...the primer is round like a donut, no signs of hitting the face of the bolt with any force.

[DeaconKC]

Okay, who else wants a "Scarlett is right!" bumper sticker for your guncart?

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, DeaconKC said:

Okay, who else wants a "Scarlett is right!" bumper sticker for your guncart?

You know they all want one but a chicken to ask! Stay tuned! ♥️

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[Hashknife Cowboy]

I had the same thing happen with off brand brass.  I just stick with the well known brass and have had no problems. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Well HI SCARLETT!!  Just to continue, the primer as shown has backed out way farther than a "light load" will cause.  I shoot APP exclusively.  Lots and Lots of APP.  I also shoot APP in reduced loads, using Cream-0-Wheat as a "filler."  Have never had a primer back out with any of my APP filed cartridges.

 

I agree with Lump Lump as well.  It's a Head space issue.  Since it isn't "every" round, the Head Space issue may well be cause by the shooter.  Setting the cartridge off when the links are not in parallel and "locked" will also result in way excess Head Space and allow a gross backing out of the primer, as shown. 

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

I can check your headspace at next Evansville match.

[The Revenuer]

1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Well HI SCARLETT!!  Just to continue, the primer as shown has backed out way farther than a "light load" will cause.  I shoot APP exclusively.  Lots and Lots of APP.  I also shoot APP in reduced loads, using Cream-0-Wheat as a "filler."  Have never had a primer back out with any of my APP filed cartridges.

 

I agree with Lump Lump as well.  It's a Head space issue.  Since it isn't "every" round, the Head Space issue may well be cause by the shooter.  Setting the cartridge off when the links are not in parallel and "locked" will also result in way excess Head Space and allow a gross backing out of the primer, as shown. 

Is this possible with the trigger safety still in place?  

 

[The Revenuer]

Thanks for all the feedback and conversations.  

 

The load in this brass was 17 grains of APP with no filler.  Before people jump on me for not using filler I have talked to quite a few people using APP light loads without filler that do not have any problems.

 

There is no slop in the links, it is basically a new gun.  

 

I have feeler gauges on the way and will check the headspace.  If I am not confident in my measurement I will have Sgt Eli check it for me the next time I see him.

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

1 hour ago, The Revenuer said:

Is this possible with the trigger safety still in place?  

 

It can be in place, but make sure it is actually working.

[The Revenuer]

12 minutes ago, SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER said:

It can be in place, but make sure it is actually working.

Good point, what I should have said is in place and working.

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yeah, 17 grains of APP.   Pretty light, and that's probably about half a case.   Room for more.  Why not follow manufacturer's recommendations.   Just because a few other pards may run light, doesn't guarantee your guns can.

 

good luck, GJ

[Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407]

10 hours ago, The Revenuer said:

 

The load in this brass was 17 grains of APP with no filler.

17 grains of APP seems mighty low.

It’s easy to load a few with a more powerful load and try them...

[Griff]

Quote

we found a second one on the range that I think is most likely mine. . 

On the basis of two hulls, (one sure and one probable), I'd head to the range with 50 rounds and determine if I really had a problem.   Video to diagnose what it is that you're doin' to have one primer back out of the case.  

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Revenuer,

 

Yes.  that can still happen even with the trigger block safety in place.  17Gr APP is light.  You have talked to "others" who load APP LIGHT without fillers with no problems.  No problems they recognize.  Not to be snarky (YES I AM) but what makes you believe "they" actually know any more than you do??

 

I suggest you READ the instructions on the bottle.  Pay attention to the part about NO AIR SPACE.  Take up the air space with a good filler.  I'd suggest Cream-0-Wheat.  In a rifle, a full case of APP won't give you enough recoil to really notice.

[Savvy Jack]

Most modern black powder loaded 44-40 cartridges produce very little chamber pressures compared to original 1873/1874 loads, through the 1950's and even the 60's. Factory loaded cartridges, black or smokeless, are already loaded lighter than originals...smokeless pistol powders since the 1970's.

 

To further the reduction, factory cowboy loads where introduced.

 

Any further reduction in loads is just asking for inconsistent problems......but what do I know.

Everyone goes to all the trouble and expense to shoot CAS, but then want to shoot light loads.....incomprehensible. 

[Savvy Jack]

I never got a chance to test Sub BP powders. However, below are the test results, typically using 40gr by WEIGHT and compressed as needed to seat the 210gr lead bullet.

• The powder charge weight was consistent.
• The amount of powder compression depended on the case design..i.e. semi-balloonhead, etc., typically between .17" (original cases) and .21" (modern cases)
• The velocity results coincide with historical published data from the time frame of the cases used.
• The case design affected pressure results.
• Original 1873 velocity was 1,325fps @ unknown pressures to me.
• 1917 factory data shows 13,000 service pressures for the Model 73' (smokeless), and 18,000 service pressure for the 44 W.H.V. loads for the Model 92'
• Black Powder pressures coincide with early "Bulk for Bulk" smokeless powder pressures.
• Winchester suggested FFg powders rather than FFFg powders, Goes FFFg powder actually gives less performance than Swiss FFg.

 

From Winchester's August 1895 catalog

For the 32, 38, and 44 WCF rifles and ALL center-fire pistol cartridges:

• American Powder Mills' "Rifle Cartridge, No. 4
• "Hazard Powder Company's "Kentucky Rifle F.F.G.
• "E. I. DuPont. de Nemours & Co.'s "Dupont Rifles F.F.G.
• "Laflin & Rand Powder Co.'s "Orange Rifle Extra, F.F.G."

 

The 44-40, and other "low pressure" black powder cartridges, needs those higher end 13,000cup pressures in order to perform properly, soft lead to expand and fill the bore, for the case neck to expand and seal the chamber,  and keep that primer pushed into the primer pocket when pushed back into the bolt face.

 

 

 

 

 

[Scarlett]

On 5/16/2023 at 7:41 PM, DeaconKC said:

Okay, who else wants a "Scarlett is right!" bumper sticker for your guncart?

Well… here it is! 4” circle! @Colorado Coffinmaker@Dallas McPewPew

[DeaconKC]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Well… here it is! 4” circle! @Colorado Coffinmaker@Dallas McPewPew

I want one!

[Scarlett]

@Dallas McPewPew - they’re being delivered next week at The Iron’s. YOU get the first one! 
 

Am I right?   
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

1 minute ago, DeaconKC said:

I want one!

PM me your address. 

[Dallas McBoomboom]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

@Dallas McPewPew - they’re being delivered next week at The Iron’s. YOU get the first one! 
 

Am I right?   
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

PM me your address. 

Awesome! Thanks Scarlett! 

[DeaconKC]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

@Dallas McPewPew - they’re being delivered next week at The Iron’s. YOU get the first one! 
 

Am I right?   
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

PM me your address. 

Thank you!

[The Revenuer]

3 hours ago, DeaconKC said:

I want one!

I need one!