mousefarts

[Cutthroat Cody]

Sometime back when my dad was living, he had 4 squibs in the barrel of his Ruger Vaquero. At the time he was using 2.9gr of Titegroup, federal primers. I didn't understand  why the barrel didn't blow itself up. I can see not having enough powder but 4 in a row? Has anyone ever had something similar

Quote

When you have to shoot shoot, don't talk.

happen?

[Texas Jack Black]

 May not have been Mouse Farts I have sat up in the Hay barn for hours and have never heard a mouse fart.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

As a matter of fact, YES!!  Two different circumstances.  Had a gentleman bring a Rossi 92 to my shop to fix the sights.  He3 shared as it was brand new and he couldn't get it "on the paper."  The iron sights were properly centered on the bore.  Humm says I.  took a peek with a Bore Scope.  No light.  Sent a range rod down, didn't go very far.  Pulled out my favorite 4lb short sledge and wailed on the range rod (Brass).  After letting some penetrating oil work its way down, I pounded SIX 125Gr bullets out of the barrel.  No Bulge.

 

The other time was a similar customer statement.  Couldn't get his Brandy Knew Ruger Vaquero "on the paper."  Please fix the sights says he.  Same same, no light through the bore.  Was THREE 125Gr bullets about half way down.  No Bulge.

 

Did have a somewhat educational conversation with both guys about their "Race to The Bottom."  I still get a laugh out of the situation(s).  Could have been quite serious though.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

I was timing a future world champion one time.  He was shooting from a gallows down into a bed of ivy where the pistol targets were.

Well, his gun went "pop" -- it always went "pop" -- but the ivy around the target was shaking, so all three spotters and I were fooled.

2nd round went "pop", but again, the ivy was shaking, so.........

Well, the 3rd round made a very muffled "pop", so I stopped him, telling him he might have had a squib, and gets a re-shoot if I'm wrong.
Well, none of the first three 125 grain bullets left the barrel.
No bulges   

Glad the gun didn't blow.

The bummer for him, was that he had just loaded over 1000 rounds like this, preparing for a shooting trip, and had to pull them all apart.
I hate timing for the shooters who use mousefart loads.

Very difficult to know if/when they have a squib.

--Dawg

[Flying W Ramrod]

Had a cowgirl shooter at Tombstone, last year, had 5 stuck in her revolver.

Husband had switched powder, couldn't find his normal stuff, and forgot to check powder load requirements.

No bulge, no crack no banana peel. Just a plug of 105g .38's in the tube.

It got drilled out and passed around at the shoot.

 

[Stump Water]

42 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

As a matter of fact, YES!!  Two different circumstances.  Had a gentleman bring a Rossi 92 to my shop to fix the sights.  He3 shared as it was brand new and he couldn't get it "on the paper."  The iron sights were properly centered on the bore.  Humm says I.  took a peek with a Bore Scope.  No light.  Sent a range rod down, didn't go very far.  Pulled out my favorite 4lb short sledge and wailed on the range rod (Brass).  After letting some penetrating oil work its way down, I pounded SIX 125Gr bullets out of the barrel.  No Bulge.

 

The other time was a similar customer statement.  Couldn't get his Brandy Knew Ruger Vaquero "on the paper."  Please fix the sights says he.  Same same, no light through the bore.  Was THREE 125Gr bullets about half way down.  No Bulge.

 

Did have a somewhat educational conversation with both guys about their "Race to The Bottom."  I still get a laugh out of the situation(s).  Could have been quite serious though.

 

Cody Conagher  told a similar story a while back.  Except it was a '73 and all ten were in there.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

feed him beans, wait 6 hours then squeeze him really hard

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

A fellow on my posse at EOT had three bullets lodged in one of his Rugers on one stage.  Our posse Marshall borrowed a squib rod and a hammer and drove them out for him.  There was no damage to the Ruger and the shooter completed the match.  He did not finish in the Top Ten in his category.

[Two Dot, 14911]

Years ago I helped a guy knock 7 38 bullets out. He couldn’t tell the difference between the squibs and those that left the barrel.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

TightGroup is very sensitive at the low levels.  Some powder measures handle it okay, but I tried 2 different ones and will not go below 3.7 grains for any loads due to it being unreliable with my measures.  It just wasn't consistent with my two setups.  Three different Lee power systems and one RCBS. 

 

I hear people with Dillon get by but many of them won't go below 3.1 grains.  Just not worth the rist.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

So I guess the danger of a bulged barrel isn't so much stacking up really wimpy loads in the bore, but having a single squib followed by regular power round(s).

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

34 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

TightGroup is very sensitive at the low levels.  Some powder measures handle it okay, but I tried 2 different ones and will not go below 3.7 grains for any loads due to it being unreliable with my measures.  It just wasn't consistent with my two setups.  Three different Lee power systems and one RCBS. 

 

I hear people with Dillon get by but many of them won't go below 3.1 grains.  Just not worth the rist.

I have been using TiteGroup at 3.2 grains with a Federal SPM in my 38 specials for over 12 years. Not a single squib or FTF in my guns. Loaded (at various times) on a Dillon 550, 650 or 750 with 125 or 147 grain bullets, with Dillon proprietary powder measure. Once with the 550 my electronic scale took an unexplained dump and while I was checking every 100 rounds for weight (after calibration at the start) it was actually delivering 2.2 grains as measured later by my RCBS/Ohaus. No squibs or FTF from those roughly 300 rounds either. 
So either I am the luckiest shooter alive or something else is going on with all these stacked up squibs. 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

PS gave up on the electronic measures after that and only use my RCBS/Ohaus beam scale now. 

[Cutthroat Cody]

I'll try to bump my powder up a little.....

[Equanimous Phil]

Various handgun power factors in shooting sports:

• SASS WBAS: 150
• USPSA: 125 / 165 (minor / major)
• IPSC: 125 / 170 / 160 (minor / major / open major)
• IDPA: 125 / 165 / 105 / 155 and 95 for the Back Up Gun

And then, there's SASS CAS: 60. Anyone notice something..?  

[Captain Bill Burt]

8 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

I have been using TiteGroup at 3.2 grains with a Federal SPM in my 38 specials for over 12 years. Not a single squib or FTF in my guns. Loaded (at various times) on a Dillon 550, 650 or 750 with 125 or 147 grain bullets, with Dillon proprietary powder measure. Once with the 550 my electronic scale took an unexplained dump and while I was checking every 100 rounds for weight (after calibration at the start) it was actually delivering 2.2 grains as measured later by my RCBS/Ohaus. No squibs or FTF from those roughly 300 rounds either. 
So either I am the luckiest shooter alive or something else is going on with all these stacked up squibs. 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

PS gave up on the electronic measures after that and only use my RCBS/Ohaus beam scale now. 

I’m running 3.0 Titegroup under a 125 grain TCFP bullet with no issues.

[Fretless]

3 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

Various handgun power factors in shooting sports:

• SASS WBAS: 150
• USPSA: 125 / 165 (minor / major)
• IPSC: 125 / 170 / 160 (minor / major / open major)
• IDPA: 125 / 165 / 105 / 155 and 95 for the Back Up Gun

And then, there's SASS CAS: 60. Anyone notice something..?  

Without caliber/weight of bullet that info can be misleading.

Wild bunch requires 45 caliber.  With a bullet weighing 200gr you meet PF at 750 FPS.  Still substantially subsonic.  SASS CAS also has a minimum velocity.  I am willing to bet that many of the loads/sqibs mentioned in this thread fall short of the CAS PF and/or minimal velocity.

 

My point is that the SASS rules are not what's creating mouse farts.

[Equanimous Phil]

21 minutes ago, Fretless said:

Without caliber/weight of bullet that info can be misleading.

Wild bunch requires 45 caliber.  With a bullet weighing 200gr you meet PF at 750 FPS.  Still substantially subsonic.  SASS CAS also has a minimum velocity.  I am willing to bet that many of the loads/sqibs mentioned in this thread fall short of the CAS PF and/or minimal velocity.

 

My point is that the SASS rules are not what's creating mouse farts.

 

Well, there's no exact definition what a "mouse fart" is.

 

The minimum velocity comes to play for bullets above 150gr. I assume that competitors looking for low recoil are shooting .38 max, and probably using lighter bullets than the standard 158gr. If a 105gr bullet is below minimum velocity of 400 fps, it is already way below PF of 60.

I consider a standard .38 with its 150 PF a moderate load. If downloaded to PF 100-120 it's a light load. A round downloaded just above PF 60, and that's just my personal opinion, I call a mouse fart. 

I don't want to campaign for major PFs in CAS, but at least reasonable, let's say 100 or 120.

[Fretless]

31 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

I don't want to campaign for major PFs in CAS, but at least reasonable, let's say 100 or 120

You're correct about standard 38 special being a moderate load.  I will add that that [common] rating of moderate is referring to it's ability to kill things.  As we all know, guns weren't invented/developed for shooting targets until quite recently. 

It sounds like you would accidentally be campaigning to eliminate 32 caliber, 105gr bullets, and actual 19th century pistols (who's barrels are not rated for the pressure developed by modern smokeless powders)

 

I think if we put all the ammo on a Chrono, we would find two things:  

1 - ammo that sounds puny is almost all below the current PF

2 - ammo that gets close to what you called a moderate load really turns heads.  Think of the times a new shooter shows up with factory ammo.  

 

I am not advocating for loads that go pffff instead of bang.  I just think bang happens well within the current rules.

 

[Equanimous Phil]

13 minutes ago, Fretless said:

You're correct about standard 38 special being a moderate load.  I will add that that [common] rating of moderate is referring to it's ability to kill things. 

I meant moderate regarding recoil, I don't know the killing abilities of the ammo I shoot.

 

16 minutes ago, Fretless said:

It sounds like you would accidentally be campaigning to eliminate 32 caliber, 105gr bullets, and actual 19th century pistols (who's barrels are not rated for the pressure developed by modern smokeless powders)

The window to find a load for 105 grainers would indeed be very small with PF of 100 and 1000 fps max velocity. But which was first, the chicken or the egg? Shooters searched for the minimum to comply with the minimal PF of 60.

Maybe original guns built for black powder should just be shot with black powder?

32 caliber is indeed a topic. It shows the conundrum of the whole matter, trying to gather all calibers under the same rule. All (or a lot of) other shooting sports differ the calibers respectively the scoring based on the PF. Requiring caliber > .40 for Classic Cowboy went in the right direction but somehow it was missed to adjust the PF for this category and people are downloading their big bore cartridges now.

 

39 minutes ago, Fretless said:

I think if we put all the ammo on a Chrono, we would find two things:  

1 - ammo that sounds puny is almost all below the current PF

That would be tragic. Why have ammo rules in the SHB if those rules are not followed?

 

44 minutes ago, Fretless said:

2 - ammo that gets close to what you called a moderate load really turns heads.  Think of the times a new shooter shows up with factory ammo. 

Probably depends on the club and part of the world you're playing cowboy.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I've had several friends that shot a lot of larger calibers and loved their 45's.

One rather big guy was master or Grand master in one of the other action sports.

He started SASS with 45's and did very well - World Champ.

Then tried the 38 and just got a big grin.  He then switched - and got World Champ a few more times that he attended.

 

He and several others can no longer shoot much at all due to their hands being injured from the significant pounding from recoil.

 

Another guy loved his over-powered black powder 45 loads (over 1000 f/s).  (He always claimed the chrono was wrong.)  No one wanted to time him.  He was a great guy and was a great story teller, by the way.
He got his young son into that as well.  Of course the son wanted to be "manly" like his dad. When the kid got into his teens, his mother and doctor convinced him he had enough damage due to shooting large calibers when too young. Evidently you have to be a little careful while they are young and bones are still forming.

I believe it was Wiley Capp, a famous shooter and writer that show an xray of his wrist showing it was essentially fused together after years of shooting. He wasn't as old as many SASS shooters.

So not all will have trouble, especially a casual shooter, but do you know?  Are you willing to take the chance?

 

So keep that in mind if you like shooting and wish to continue.

[Warden Callaway]

I have an old first generation Colt that had been converted to 38 Special.  I loaded up some 105 gr bullets and the 10 yard group looked more lake a 30 yard Buckshot load. Good buddy Bill Fuchs,  gunsmith told me these old barriers didn't like light bullets.   I found some 158 Keith bullets. And made great group.  Ones in circle plus flyer - 158. 105 all around.  

 

[Doc Shapiro]

16 hours ago, Cutthroat Cody said:

Sometime back when my dad was living, he had 4 squibs in the barrel of his Ruger Vaquero. At the time he was using 2.9gr of Titegroup, federal primers. I didn't understand  why the barrel didn't blow itself up. I can see not having enough powder but 4 in a row? Has anyone ever had something similar

happen?

 

If your loads are too light, you're just hurting your times.  I seem to recycle this post on a regular basis...  My Forum Search skills are week.

 

Suffice it to say, that 125gr bullets at 825 fps (or something similar), for most shooters, will yield the best results.  Some recoil is needed in the system in order to operate at speed.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/revolvers/the-first-gunfighters-sixgun/

 

https://www.guns.com/news/review/gun-review-classic-cap-and-ball-revolver-calibers-get-the-ballistic-gel-test

[Griff]

I have misplaced my copy of the Shooter's Handbook from my 1st EOT in 1986 and the original SASS official Shooter's Handbook from 1987... but I distinctly recall that there was no PF mentioned, but a minimum fps was listed at 650fps.  I don't recall any penalty associated with any infraction, except maybe being DQ'd for using illegal ammo.  Nor was there any attempts to actually measure same.  The same maximum velocity for rifle & pistol were listed tho'.  The first mention of the PF and minimum velocity requirement was in the 14th Edition of the Shooter's Handbook in 2008.  The competition to have the slowest and least recoiling ammo has been in full force and effect since the earliest days of cowboy action.  

[Widder, SASS #59054]

For those of you who may not have realized it yet......... there is an advantage of shooting short

barrel revolvers.

 

..........Widder

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

8 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

Well, there's no exact definition what a "mouse fart" is.

 

The minimum velocity comes to play for bullets above 150gr. I assume that competitors looking for low recoil are shooting .38 max, and probably using lighter bullets than the standard 158gr. If a 105gr bullet is below minimum velocity of 400 fps, it is already way below PF of 60.

I consider a standard .38 with its 150 PF a moderate load. If downloaded to PF 100-120 it's a light load. A round downloaded just above PF 60, and that's just my personal opinion, I call a mouse fart. 

I don't want to campaign for major PFs in CAS, but at least reasonable, let's say 100 or 120.

Reasonable is not a very definitive term.  I find a PF of 60 to be reasonable.

7 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

I meant moderate regarding recoil, I don't know the killing abilities of the ammo I shoot.

 

The window to find a load for 105 grainers would indeed be very small with PF of 100 and 1000 fps max velocity. But which was first, the chicken or the egg? Shooters searched for the minimum to comply with the minimal PF of 60.

Maybe original guns built for black powder should just be shot with black powder?

32 caliber is indeed a topic. It shows the conundrum of the whole matter, trying to gather all calibers under the same rule. All (or a lot of) other shooting sports differ the calibers respectively the scoring based on the PF. Requiring caliber > .40 for Classic Cowboy went in the right direction but somehow it was missed to adjust the PF for this category and people are downloading their big bore cartridges now.

 

That would be tragic. Why have ammo rules in the SHB if those rules are not followed?

 

Probably depends on the club and part of the world you're playing cowboy.

If the PF were to be increased to 120 as you propose, what are your thoughts about the impact on those who are currently shooting .32 H&R with 105 grain bullets?  Sorry you dropped $2,400 on those Jimmy Spurs pistols, guess you're SOL?

[Dusty Devil Dale]

About 6 years ago, I handed my S&W 686 w/ 6" barrel to a friend to shoot.  We were shooting factory .357 magnum 158 gn full jacketed, solid point bullets.   After missing the target three times, she handed .me back the gun.  Neither of us had seen a bullet strike anything.  I checked with a squib rod, and sure enough, there were three full jacketed  rounds firmly lodged in the barrel.  It took an hour of careful machining back at home (drilling/tapping and pulling on a milling machine)  to get them out, but there was ZERO damage to the gun.  

 

I seriously doubt that 2.9 gn of Titegroup would bulge a Vaquero barrel.  Also, 2.9 gn of Titegroup should not have been a squib load in the first place, unless you were shooting a .45 Colt or other weighty bullets.  I suggest you check your powder dispenser against a good scale.   I normally load 2.6 gn in my wife's .32 H&R Mag with 78 gn bullets and 2.9 gn with 95 gn bullets with never a problem. 

[watab kid]

i had a sqib but stopped shooting when i heard it , one should always look before proceeding if you hear one 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

8 minutes ago, watab kid said:

i had a sqib but stopped shooting when i heard it , one should always look before proceeding if you hear one 

 

You are correct. But when shooting 65pf ammo it's not as easy to hear or notice a squib as it is with higher pf ammo.

[Cholla]

I was spotter at a match. The shooter’s loads were so quiet, all I could hear was the ping when it hit the target. I would say he was walking a fine line of almost being a squib. 

[Vail Vigilante]

There is another issue with very light loads. Detonation. I’m not going to get into the tech of it but there are a lot of writings on it by Hatcher, Cooper, Ackley, and a few more contemporary writers. Not good stuff. Food for thought. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

2 hours ago, Vail Vigilante said:

Detonation.

SEE?  No, I don't see. Not in revolvers with straight wall cartridges, especially.  If SEE could be induced in light (very light) handgun loads, SASS would be the breeding ground for such events.   Never seen or heard of one in SASS.  Seen many many squibs, though.

 

good luck,

GJ

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

18 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

SEE?  No, I don't see. Not in revolvers with straight wall cartridges, especially.  If SEE could be induced in light (very light) handgun loads, SASS would be the breeding ground for such events.   Never seen or heard of one in SASS.  Seen many many squibs, though.

 

good luck,

GJ

You are right, imho. I think most SASS blowups have been due to double charges or two bullets in the case. And most of them don’t happen in SASS.  

[Tequila Shooter]

What is all this talk of Mouse Fart loads??  Fill the case, light compression seat bullet, crimp.  Can’t double charge, no squibs, lots of smoke and a big smile. 

[The Surgeon]

I had a couple squibs at my last match. the load I was loading was 2.8gns of bullseye using a lee autodisk. I usually check about every 10th bullet on a scale and never noticed anything unusual. I got home and pulled a couple of the rest of the batch I loaded and some of them only had like 20 flakes of powder. my guess is the hole on the disk was to small and the powder was bridging every now and again. I had loaded 3.0gns for a couple thousand and never had an issue. went back to hole that does 3.0gns and I weighed about 25 in a row and they were all 2.9-3.1.