ATF picking up FRTs

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Wonder how they know who bought them and if they are legally doing this?

 

[Badlands Bob #61228]

The FRT issue is similar to the arm brace on the AR-15 pistols.   I'm pretty confident that the ATF won't be given the authority to make millions of people felons with the swipe of the pen from some administrator.   For the time being, I would separate them from the firearm and store them in a very good hiding place until all the challenges have worked their way through the courts and the laws are firmly established.

[Pat Riot]

“Hi, no you can’t come in and I will talk to you after I speak with my lawyer. I am being cooperative and will continue to cooperate after I speak with my lawyer.”

[Dantankerous]

Someday soon, some gun hating Karen is gonna hear the term "short stroke kit" and get scared and cry to Mom's Against Everything Cool and they are gonna find out it helps a lever action rifle shoot faster. Watch out cowboys! "Short stroke kit" does sound ominous.

 

And just think of the panic when said Karen learns about the WIDDERMADDIC! That's used in a .22 caliber rifle that KIDS can use! OMG! Oh the humanity!

[sassnetguy50]

5 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

Someday soon, some gun hating Karen is gonna hear the term "short stroke kit" and get scared and cry to Mom's Against Everything Cool and they are gonna find out it helps a lever action rifle shoot faster. Watch out cowboys! "Short stroke kit" does sound ominous.

 

And just think of the panic when said Karen learns about the WIDDERMADDIC! That's used in a .22 caliber rifle that KIDS can use! OMG! Oh the humanity!

Shhhh, don't  give them ideas.  I bought a short stroke because it is easier on my injured shoulder.

[sassnetguy50]

Full video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FHhc4byi46w

[sassnetguy50]

The internet story goes

The ATF sent letters declairing FRT to be machine guns.  They were told off when they went directly to manufacturers for sales records.  Then they went to retailers and threatened to charge them with violating the NFA if they didn't voluntarily hand over records.

 

https://www.scribd.com/document/566408674/Open-Letter-to-All-FFLs-Forced-Reset-Triggers-FRTs

[Tell Sackett SASS 18436]

Okay, what’s an FRT??

[Rip Snorter]

Resetting AR trigger.

[John Kloehr]

31 minutes ago, Tell Sackett SASS 18436 said:

Okay, what’s an FRT??

Forced Reset Trigger.

 

When you pull the trigger, the gun goes bang. The bolt slides back to charge the next round and also pushes the trigger forward (forcing the reset). Shooter's finger is also pushed forward.

 

As long as the shooter maintains pressure on the trigger, the gun will go bang again as soon as the bolt is fully closed.

 

So each shot is due to a separate action of the trigger, as long as the shooter maintains continuous backward pressure on it...

 

So I have questions. Is it a single function of the trigger? Is the FRT designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun?:

 

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act the term Machinegun means:

• Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger
• Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, or

 

IANAL, I think the ATF may be overstepping the definition, but can also see the legislature updating the definition to include this device.

[Alpo]

1 minute ago, John Kloehr said:

I think the ATF may be overstepping the definition,

So what else is new? The ATF has been overstepping the law and the definitions of firearms since the ATF came in existence.

[Subdeacon Joe]

What will SCOTUS say?

[John Kloehr]

2 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

What will SCOTUS say?

SCOTUS tends to rule narrowly, Per my thinking above, SCOTUS would possibly determine the ATF overstepped without ruling on the constitutionality of laws passed in 1934.

 

IMO, SCOTUS might rule on 1934 in another decade or so. Let's hope our society and nation are healthy enough to deal with overturning it as unconstitutional. We do have some problems to solve. Family life, work stress, purpose in life...

 

I am in favor of working on those problems in the meantime, and continue to lead the world to a healthy productive future.

[J.D. Daily]

5 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

 

Because of recoil if your AR has a Fostech Echo II binary trigger it is hard not fire two rounds with a single pull of the trigger.  You have to 1st replace the aluminum weights in the buffer to reduce the cyclic rate to minimum.  Then you have to lean into the butt & pull hard on the hand guard.  If you don't force the butt into you shoulder it will be similar to bump fire.  It took me a while to learn the technique down.  The 1st time I tried binary fire I inserted a 60 round drum mag in the AR.  I used my usual soft trigger pull & forearm grip.  I sen 20+ rounds down range before I got my finger off the trigger.

[Still hand Bill]

6 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

Forced Reset Trigger.

 

When you pull the trigger, the gun goes bang. The bolt slides back to charge the next round and also pushes the trigger forward (forcing the reset). Shooter's finger is also pushed forward.

 

As long as the shooter maintains pressure on the trigger, the gun will go bang again as soon as the bolt is fully closed.

 

So each shot is due to a separate action of the trigger, as long as the shooter maintains continuous backward pressure on it...

 

So I have questions. Is it a single function of the trigger? Is the FRT designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun?:

 

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act the term Machinegun means:

• Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger
• Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, or

 

IANAL, I think the ATF may be overstepping the definition, but can also see the legislature updating the definition to include this device.

Per the definition in current law, a frt is not a machine gun.  The atf took the stance that the shooter makes one action and it fires multiple rounds and is machine gun.  Same as a bump stock.   May be overturned as they are using chevron deference to expand the definition.   Obviously the guy who designed the frt was spoiling for a fight and was very clever. 
 

now in practical terms it is as close as you can come to a machine gun without being one.  If you want to see people shoot them, look up YouTube videos.  There was one guy who compared it to his m16 and it equaled the rate of fire.   Faster than a binary trigger which is still “legal” but fires once on pull and once on release. 
 

[sassnetguy50]

2 hours ago, J.D. Daily said:

Because of recoil if your AR has a Fostech Echo II binary trigger it is hard not fire two rounds with a single pull of the trigger.  You have to 1st replace the aluminum weights in the buffer to reduce the cyclic rate to minimum.  Then you have to lean into the butt & pull hard on the hand guard.  If you don't force the butt into you shoulder it will be similar to bump fire.  It took me a while to learn the technique down.  The 1st time I tried binary fire I inserted a 60 round drum mag in the AR.  I used my usual soft trigger pull & forearm grip.  I sen 20+ rounds down range before I got my finger off the trigger.

The soft trigger pull is the problem.  Install the binary kit in a milspec AR.  Shoot it like a you're doing speed steel, quick and deliberately.  Hold the trigger back while your palm is around the pistol grip, the recoil will be irrelevant.   Deliberately let the trigger back out for the next round.  A soft release has caused issues.

[John Kloehr]

9 hours ago, Still hand Bill said:

... using chevron deference to expand the definition. 

But Chevron deference does not apply to criminal penalties. Chevron is apparently valid only for civil infractions..

[Subdeacon Joe]

Playing Devils Advocate here. 

This is a great example of hair splitting.  "As long as the shooter maintains pressure on the trigger, the gun will go bang again as soon as the bolt is fully closed."  Does that count as a single pull of the trigger?  Yes, it forces the trigger finger forward, but since you are still maintaining the pressure on the trigger, is that a single pull?  Or have you in actuality released the trigger and pulled again.  Can maintaining a steady pressure reasonably be interpreted as being a separate action, or pull of the trigger, after the first round is fired.

For all practical purposes FRTs do cause the firearm to act as a fully automatic (as opposed to full semi-auto) weapon.  So does a bump stock, but since a person can learn to bump fire without a bump stock, unless you are going to outlaw sticks, belt loops, and thumbs there is no point in banning them.  

[Capt. James H. Callahan]

I had one of those Hellfire gizmos years ago, guess I never got the hang of it. I could never get it to fire more than 2-3 rounds, and to do that I had to hold it away from my shoulder or shoot from the hip. I could shoot faster just pulling the trigger and more accurately so I sold it. Haven't missed it since.

JHC

[Alpo]

It's funny. People that have fully automatic firearms would not be able to shoot these things and make them work. Neither a forced reset trigger nor a bump stock.

 

People that own machine guns learn very quickly that the purpose is not to hold the trigger back until you fired all your ammunition. You are supposed to get on and off the trigger, quickly, so that you fire two or maybe three rounds at a time. Pow pow. Pow pow pow. Pow pow.

 

This allows you to hit your target with two or three rounds, but allows you to hit your target.

 

But for an frt or a bump stock to work, you need to pull the trigger and hold it. Its only purpose is to dump the magazine.

 

Now when someone buys a machine gun, generally the first thing they do is a magazine dump. And they might do that two or three times. And they realize that all they were doing was making noise and burning up money. Then they learn how to shoot one.

 

So I figure that when someone buys an frt or a bump stock, they will do three or four magazine dumps, then realize that's a waste of money, then realize they can't use that thing they just bought to do anything besides do a magazine dump, and they will probably remove it.

 

Because it's a worthless piece of nonsense.

 

[sassnetguy50]

3 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

Playing Devils Advocate here. 

This is a great example of hair splitting.  "As long as the shooter maintains pressure on the trigger, the gun will go bang again as soon as the bolt is fully closed."  Does that count as a single pull of the trigger?  Yes, it forces the trigger finger forward, but since you are still maintaining the pressure on the trigger, is that a single pull?  Or have you in actuality released the trigger and pulled again.  Can maintaining a steady pressure reasonably be interpreted as being a separate action, or pull of the trigger, after the first round is fired.

For all practical purposes FRTs do cause the firearm to act as a fully automatic (as opposed to full semi-auto) weapon.  So does a bump stock, but since a person can learn to bump fire without a bump stock, unless you are going to outlaw sticks, belt loops, and thumbs there is no point in banning them.  

The law is "single function of the trigger" nothing about finger pressure. 

[sassnetguy50]

4 minutes ago, sassnetguy50 said:

The law is "single function of the trigger" nothing about finger pressure.  I think FRT found the legal loophole by letter, not spirit. 

Or better explained here (2years ago)

https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2021/08/13/atf-sued-by-trigger-manufacturer-n48833

[Eyesa Horg]

29 minutes ago, Alpo said:

It's funny. People that have fully automatic firearms would not be able to shoot these things and make them work. Neither a forced reset trigger nor a bump stock.

 

People that own machine guns learn very quickly that the purpose is not to hold the trigger back until you fired all your ammunition. You are supposed to get on and off the trigger, quickly, so that you fire two or maybe three rounds at a time. Pow pow. Pow pow pow. Pow pow.

 

This allows you to hit your target with two or three rounds, but allows you to hit your target.

 

But for an frt or a bump stock to work, you need to pull the trigger and hold it. Its only purpose is to dump the magazine.

 

Now when someone buys a machine gun, generally the first thing they do is a magazine dump. And they might do that two or three times. And they realize that all they were doing was making noise and burning up money. Then they learn how to shoot one.

 

So I figure that when someone buys an frt or a bump stock, they will do three or four magazine dumps, then realize that's a waste of money, then realize they can't use that thing they just bought to do anything besides do a magazine dump, and they will probably remove it.

 

Because it's a worthless piece of nonsense.

 

There's a reason the military went to 3 shot burst on the M16.

[John Kloehr]

31 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

Playing Devils Advocate here. 

This is a great example of hair splitting.  "As long as the shooter maintains pressure on the trigger, the gun will go bang again as soon as the bolt is fully closed."  Does that count as a single pull of the trigger?  Yes, it forces the trigger finger forward, but since you are still maintaining the pressure on the trigger, is that a single pull?  Or have you in actuality released the trigger and pulled again.  Can maintaining a steady pressure reasonably be interpreted as being a separate action, or pull of the trigger, after the first round is fired.

For all practical purposes FRTs do cause the firearm to act as a fully automatic (as opposed to full semi-auto) weapon.  So does a bump stock, but since a person can learn to bump fire without a bump stock, unless you are going to outlaw sticks, belt loops, and thumbs there is no point in banning them.  

It is hair splitting, so pulled up the actual definition (and added my bold):

 

Section 5845(b) of the NFA defines “machinegun” as “any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.”

 

It comes down to "single function of the trigger." As an engineer, I see this assembly working by multiple functions of the trigger. And the ATF seems to be trying for either of two other interpretations... The single function of the shooter on the trigger (continuous pressure), and the single function(ality) of the FRT trigger (more than one shot per "single" trigger pull).

 

The last sentence of the definition is also of concern... I am not going to buy one of these as I have no assurance the courts will rule under my understanding of the actual law; and legislation may change the definition to include the various solutions under discussion.

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

1 hour ago, sassnetguy50 said:

The law is "single function of the trigger" nothing about finger pressure.  I think FRT found the legal loophole by letter, not spirit. 

 

Thanks.   Obviously I had conflated the two.  But, please, don't call it a loophole.  It's applying the letter of the law, and that isn't a loophole.

 

8 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

It comes down to "single function of the trigger." As an engineer, I see this assembly working by multiple functions of the trigger

 

Thanks.  I agree.  Resetting the trigger creates a clearly separate function of the trigger.

[Still hand Bill]

This would not even be a thing or an issue if the nfa registry had not been closed in 1986.  In many ways it wasn’t as anyone with an sot can still build machine guns.   Unfortunately a lot of people invested in machine guns as they appreciate every year and they have a huge interest in not reopening the registry.  
 

if the registry was opened and you could buy a tax stamp for a FRT, people would do it and they would be worth a lot.  Will see where it ends up after the courts are done.  

[sassnetguy50]

2 hours ago, sassnetguy50 said:

The law is "single function of the trigger" nothing about finger pressure. 

@Subdeacon Joe fixed it.

[Subdeacon Joe]

9 minutes ago, sassnetguy50 said:

@Subdeacon Joe fixed it.

Thanks.  To me, and to many others, "loophole" carries an implication of something underhanded. a distortion of the law.  You know, like what the BATFE os doing with redefining words.  We need to take the language back.  They aren't "gun rights" but "civil rights." Not "assault weapon/rifle" but "semi-automatic rifle."  Or, as so many law enforcement agencies, local, county, state, and federal say, "self-defense rifle."

[J.D. Daily]

On 5/12/2023 at 7:50 PM, sassnetguy50 said:

The soft trigger pull is the problem.  Install the binary kit in a milspec AR.  Shoot it like a you're doing speed steel, quick and deliberately.  Hold the trigger back while your palm is around the pistol grip, the recoil will be irrelevant.   Deliberately let the trigger back out for the next round.  A soft release has caused issues.

Fostech recommended in their installation instructions that for best reliability use the heaviest buffer (all tungsten weights).

Thanks for the recommendation for trigger technique.

[Michigan Slim]

Wouldn't mind having half a dozen. Wish I would have picked them up when I saw them.