Can too much extractor work cause light primer strikes on Stoeger SxS

[Bearfoot Tracker]

If you had been looking at my previous thread about the 20 gauge factory AA ammo primers set too deep in pocket on some shells, this is kind of continuation of that thread but moving into a different subject.

 

After a visit to the range this morning, I am now convinced that that is not the issue with the light primer strikes I have been getting on my wife's Stoeger Uplander Youth 20 gauge. I took reloaded STS and AA ammo (with primers all set not to low). I still got some light primer strikes sometimes on the first trigger pull and sometimes on the second trigger pull. And, a couple times on both trigger pulls. I shot a box of both the reloaded STS and AA, and got about 5-7 light primer strikes from each box. AND, her is the kicker .... break the gun open and close it again and the light primer strike fires.

 

I am now noticing the extractor. The extractor was worked on by the smith that tuned the gun. If the extractor was beveled and smoothed down too much, could that cause light primer strikes? I don't know.  With the gun broke open and you set a shell into the gun, the back of the shells sets down a little past the outside edge of the extractor. I also noticed with the gun closed there is a minute bit of play in head space.

 

Has anyone experienced an issue with extractors causing light primer strikes?

 

I am at wits end with this gun: I have lightened the break open lever spring. had the gun tuned by a cowboy smith; replaced the firing pins with extended SS pins; sanded the wood inside the butt stock where the hammers operate; and added a washer back into the lever break open spring. Still get light primer strikes. Outside of sending it back to the gunsmith (which I really want to be the last resort), the only ideas I have left is to replace the extractor with a factory untouched one, shaving some more wood in the butt stock of the gun (which I do not think is an issue), and/or add another washer to the break open spring to stiffen it up more (which I don't know if that really has any effect on what is happening).

 

I welcome any thoughts to the issue. Thanks.

 

P.S. My 12 gauge Stoeger SXS was tuned by a different cowboy smith, and the extractor was not touched on it. That gun has always worked well and never had at light primer strike on any ammo.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

I'd try a new extractor. Sounds like somebody got carried away with a dremmel.

[One Gun Jimmy]

If the work is extreame enough to let the shell set in deeper in the chamber than it absolutely could cause light strikes.

 

The advice of a new extractor is solid.

 

They are cheap, try one, if it works then problem solved.

[One Gun Jimmy]

Just read your post closer,  if there is play in headspace I would highly consider that the bevel job is a culprit.

[Bearfoot Tracker]

33 minutes ago, One Gun Jimmy said:

If the work is extreame enough to let the shell set in deeper in the chamber than it absolutely could cause light strikes.

 

The advice of a new extractor is solid.

 

They are cheap, try one, if it works then problem solved.

Just ordered one. They are cheap. I will try that before doing anymore work.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

YES.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Can you post a picture, so we don't have to guess? 

[One Gun Jimmy]

3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Can you post a picture, so we don't have to guess? 

Lumpy, don't come in here with your logical ways to find a solution 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 minute ago, One Gun Jimmy said:

Lumpy, don't come in here with your logical ways to find a solution 

Well, it is 'Fact Finding Friday' after all 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

What I have done to fix some overdone chamber beveling is to take a thin flat jewlers file and make three small notches on the extractor shaft just below the head.  Then snap an E-clip into the notches.  This will raise the extractor and the gun will probably not close.  Then grind/file/polish the face of the extractor until the gun closes.  This usually fixes the problem.

 

 

 

[Bearfoot Tracker]

18 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Can you post a picture, so we don't have to guess? 

You ask a logical question .... here you go.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

The e-clip should fix that.

[One Gun Jimmy]

Looks like the shoulder is gone from the tops of the barrels.

 

Hopefully it's the extractor and not the barrels themselves

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

One quick test is to put a straight edge on the barrels and see if the rims are below the level of the barrels.  This will also show how deep the primers are set.  Stoeger extractors are not well fitted and the extractor cut or the entire extractor can be below the edge of the barrels.  The e-clip fix will often fix poor Stoeger chamber funneling because the rounds will then headspace on the extractor rather than the chamber cuts.

 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Bearfoot Tracker said:

I also noticed with the gun closed there is a minute bit of play in head space.

 

With no shell in the gun there should be ZERO play in headspace. This issue needs to be fixed ASAP as it will only get worse if you continue to fire the gun.

 

A competent SXS smith should be able to fix the headspace issue.

 

 

[Flash]

I would say the gun is not closing and latching properly every time. You stated you get a light primer strike then open and close it and it fires makes me think the locking lug needs some work on it.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

2 hours ago, Bearfoot Tracker said:

I have lightened the break open lever spring

 

2 hours ago, Bearfoot Tracker said:

add another washer to the break open spring to stiffen it up more (which I don't know if that really has any effect on what is happening).

 

I missed that Flash.  After checking with a straight edge to check rim depth the opening lever spring is often the chief culprit of this problem in a Stoeger.  The locking lugs are held in engagement by the top lever opening spring.  When the gun fires inertia moves the locking lugs and the barrel partially disengages.  When that happens no bang.  The lugs are often poorly fitted with little engagement and the only thing holding the gun closed is the spring.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

That lower picture shows the rim shelf has been ground completely off for at least half the circumference around the chamber.  That is just about GUARANTEED to cause excess headspace.  That shelf needs to be there to provide the headspace that is needed to hold the shell against the standing breech face, and any smith that grinds it to a full smooth conical surface is a HACK.   Sorry for cussin'.   Sorry your gun got cut up that badly.  

 

Fixes - the extractor replacement or shimming up will only support one side of the shell.  May work, may not be enough support.

 

A better fix is to sleeve the chambers with a new piece of steel.  Brownells sells a chamber sleeve for 12 gauge.  Careful lathe and soldering or epoxying work will let that sleeve return the chamber to factory profile.  Then, if you want the rear of the chamber beveled enough for fast loading, go ahead, BUT STOP WHEN ABOUT HALF OF THE WIDTH OF THE RIM SHELF STILL EXISTS ON THE REAR OF THE CHAMBER!  The gun will still load fast, but now it will fire shells successfully, either factory or reloads.

 

good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, Bearfoot Tracker said:

You ask a logical question .... here you go.

Put an E clip under the extractor 

[Bearfoot Tracker]

Thank you everyone for the input. It sounds like there could be a lot of culprits in a light primer strike on these type guns.

 

Jimmy, the pictures are a little deceiving as there is still a little shoulder at the tops of the barrel.

 

I think my course of action will be:

 

1. Go to the range and take my tools. Dang ...  I wished had land where I could just step out the back door and shoot.

2. Take the barrels off and straight edge it as Larson. said .... see what it looks like. (My worry if the shells drop too deep in the chamber, the new extractor is not going to be in line with everything).

3. Put new extractor in with barrels off and  and check it to see if new extractors are going to line up ok with the work that has already been done to the chambers.

4. If looks ok, put gun back together. Check the head space, and fire some rounds through it and see if that solves the problem. (I better hope that solves the headspace issue).

5. If new extractor does not fit good with the work that's already done to the chambers, put put the old extractor back in and add washers to the lever spring to see if that solves the issue (but that will not solve the head space issue).

6. If it hasn't been solved at by this point, It looks like it's going back to the gunsmith as I would rather he fix the issue whether requiring e-clip or the chamber issue.

 

[Bearfoot Tracker]

1 minute ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Put an E clip under the extractor 

If everything else does not work, I will try the e-clip under the old extractor and try it before sending it back to the smith. Thanks.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 minute ago, Bearfoot Tracker said:

If everything else does not work, I will try the e-clip under the old extractor and try it before sending it back to the smith. Thanks.

Keep us updated.

Use factory ammo, then try reloads.

[Bearfoot Tracker]

It will take a few days to get the new extractor.

I will update everyone what worked and didn't work once I get back from the range again.

I may have a few questions about the e-clip if it comes down to that.

Thank you everyone.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Here's a picture markup to show where the headspace shelf (ledge, shoulder, etc) has been just about completely removed.   Bad smithing in my book.

 

good luck, GJ

[Bearfoot Tracker]

Here are some more pictures with the barrel off and extractor in. I does look like there the face of the extractor sets a little below the chamber face just a little. May be I should try the e-clip first.

[Bearfoot Tracker]

1 minute ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Here's a picture markup to show where the headspace shelf (ledge, shoulder, etc) has been just about completely removed.   Bad smithing in my book.

 

good luck, GJ

You are correct. You do not see a line on the upper part of the chambers. Although, the shells seem to fit fine in the chambers .... I think. See the pictures I just added.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

No, left chamber is allowing that shell to sit about 20 thousandths too deep, if my eyeballs are correctly calibrated. Right chamber half of that.  Stick a feeler gauge in that gap and "feel" for yourself.

 

good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

OP, I suggest that you also get a set of aftermarket firing pins from a SASS vendor. 

 

[Bearfoot Tracker]

15 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OP, I suggest that you also get a set of aftermarket firing pins from a SASS vendor. 

 

Yes I already installed a stainless steel extended set I got from a SASS vendor. I was hoping that would resolve the issue but not. I do not give up on things normally as I am a little stubborn that way, but I only have so much capabilities and tools for this kind of work. If some of the fixes mentioned in this thread do not fix it ..... I'm punting.

[Griff]

I'd give up on that 'smith being able to fix that gun.  I hate to see folks get 7/8s of a gun's life shaved off in the attempt to shave a tenth of a second.  

[John Kloehr]

Masking tape can also serve as a temporary self-sticking shim under the extractor. Combine with feeler gauges to build up as needed and see if that solves the problem.

 

I have a problem with my Stoeger SxS, and just really have not had the time to actually focus on it and solve it. Really only posting this to give something (anything) back as thanks for those who have got me in the right direction.

[Bearfoot Tracker]

1 minute ago, Griff said:

I'd give up on that 'smith being able to fix that gun.  I hate to see folks get 7/8s of a gun's life shaved off in the attempt to shave a tenth of a second.  

No. The smith has worked on three other of my guns and done a very good job on them. I gave him the gun before my wife had used it and gave him some some Fiocchi Low Recoil shells to test with that were not the right type of shells for this sport (thin ribbed wall). They would not shuck and he worked and worked on the gun trying to get them to shuck to no avail. In addition, he has asked me to send back to him so he can work on it again.

[Griff]

Good technique will last far longer than ruining a chamber's mouth by overly aggressive "funneling".    That level of funneling is overly aggressive.  Sorry, but that shotgun's been 'smithed past it's useable life.   Nuff said.

[Assassin]

I remove the extractor when tapering a chamber mouth. Why would anyone grind or polish the extractor? 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE for Griff.  Additionally, "Funneling" a shotgun's breach destroys its value to anyone but a SASS Shooter.  regular shotgunners won't touch it.  It is unsellable as is.  Your 20Ga doesn't need "bandaids," it needs to have the chambers sleeved.  The rim shelves are "gone" and the grinding has the barrels "off face."  At this point, without sleeving, it's actually a write-off.  Unless you're willing to have the chambers sleeved, just send me the money.  At least one of us will be happy with your purchase.