Question: Winchester 32 WS

[Fallon Kid]

Gotta a question and I know this site is A.I. powered (Actual Intelligence) I picked up a Winchester model 64 and caliber is 32 WS.  I want to get this old girl running. S/N dates this as a 1933 manufacture. The problem: When I load a bullet to SAMI (2.565 OAL) it will not fully chamber and stops with about .200 to go before fully chambered. If I f try force bullet in, the bullet will engage rifling and stick in barrel. When ejecting, the bullet is sucked out of the brass. I loaded some dummy rds and find that about 2.375 vice 2.565 bullet will chamber without incident.  I am using Starline 32 WS brass/RCBS 32-170-RN bullet/ appox 40gn 2FF/  Bullets sized to .321 and lubed via Lyman 4500. To reload RCBS dies and Rock Chucker press.

This is not my first bullet reloading but IMHO the bullet looks a bit too seated and appears to be past bottle neck and base of bullet in main brass cavity. I’m only 78 but I know some of you old timers have experienced differences in yesteryear guns. Thanks Jerry

Lesson Learned: True confession, yesterday I took a few rounds seated at 2.435 to the range. I chambered the first round and fired normally. I levered in a second round and bolt did not fully close, so I jacked that out and levered in another one. The third try did not chamber so I unloaded gun and tried to blow down barrel and visually check. Barrel was obstructed and I punched out a bullet stuck in barrel after I got home. Had the third round chambered, I would be wearing that gun now. A momentary lack awareness on my part I admit but someone was watching out for me. I have already beat myself up over this. Just passing on info for you to use as you like.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Well, when I load this caliber my cartridges look like the one on the left and they work just fine.   The one on the right is way too long, and the crimp groove is way too far above the top of the case.

 

That may have something to do with your troubles.

[Fallon Kid]

HK. Thanks. I feel better a bit. The one on the right is SAMI 2.565 and that will not chamber. There is not much data on this cartridge and kinda making it up. I think when the gun was made the cartridge standards were a wee bit loose. And being a Winchester gun and bullet nobody told Oliver what to do. LOL  Also not too many options for bullet molds.  .321 is not an everyday size.   Thanks again Jerry

[Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485]

Just checked a factory load, 2.56". Maybe you need to get your chamber cast. see if something else is going on.

[Caladisi kid]

Hello Fallon Kid,  Check your fired case against these specs.  In the pictures it looks like your crimp may not be enough or at all.  Having never used BP for a load, is the powder in the case full/slightly compressed?  Should be, no air space allowed.  You may have to have a chamber cast and compare it to the specs but a fired case should be close enough.  Good Luck.

[Fallon Kid]

Thanks for info Caladisi.   I’m sure you are right about chamber cast and that is what I think is wrong. The gun itself does not like the recommended length for a 32 WS.  When it was made specifications were not uniform throughout industry. I tried to force a factory spec dummy bullet into the chamber and the rifling marks were very pronounced all the way down  to about half the exposed bullet. A fired brass was measured per your sketch above and most measurements were appox .002 under the SAMI specs. ( all brass was complete FL sized) Also a fired empty case goes in and out with ease. I guess what got my attention is I cast a bullet very close to original and the gun don’t like it. I understand changing the bullet profile (increase ogive radius) would allow engaging rifling deeper. Being a tube magazine limits nose configuration. Any who, thank you again. I’m just old and stupid and should  have been put down a long time ago. lol

[Caladisi kid]

Fallon, you are quite welcome. The older stuff always gives me some treats and adventures.  Since your fired case meets the specs., then look at your bullet nose profile.  I would also take a look , if possible, at your throat lead, is it dirty, rusty, etc.  You also mentioned that your first bullet got stuck in the barrel.  A full load should have expelled it out.

Always an adventure, Caladisi Kid. 

[Sedalia Dave]

Accurate Molds will make you a mould. They will customize the diameter at no additional charge.

 

These should work for 32 WS  

 

https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=32-170A

 

https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=32-180A

 

https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=32-195D

[Caladisi kid]

Morning Fallon, I was wondering what the marking on the barrel for the caliber looked like? Have you slugged the barrel?  Is it at all possible that you have a 30-30 barrel for a .308 and the chamber was reamed for the 32 WS and it has been  mis-marked?  A possible barrel relining?  These questions are based on your OP that the first bullet was stopped in the barrel.  CK 

 

  

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Question, why are you trying to seat the bullets out so far?  A little background.  The .32 Special is a hunting round that was designed at a time when people were still loading black powder as the new smokeless came into wider use.  The .32 was supposed to be dual purpose.  The slightly larger bore of the .32 was to help reduce fouling over the smaller .30-30.  The biggest difference is that the .32 has a 1 in 12 inch twist and the .30 has a one in ten.  Again this was to help with fouling but gave the .32 a reputation as not being terribly accurate because the slower twist does not stablize long bullets as well as the .30-30.  These guns do NOT have any freebore.  The rifling basically starts at the very end of the chamber.  The ogive of the bullet fits into the rifling but does not touch it as it is below bore diameter.  This is demonstrated by the photo you posted.  The ogive is the green arrow.  What you have done by loading the ammo wrong is to expose a driving band which is bore diameter and it is hitting the rifling.  Orange arrow.  You do not need a chamber cast you need to load the ammo correctly for the gun you have.

 

[Caladisi kid]

Morning all,

From the OP, Fallon had loaded to the correct OAL and the fired case has been found to be in spec.  The left cartridge in the photo shows the bullet to protrude about .5" per spec.  I still think that a firmer crimp should be done based on the photo as well as a smaller nose profile for the chamber.  As long as the bore is slugged and found to be correct then a different bullet nose profile is needed.   Larson is correct on the chamber/throat/lead info as I have some older 32 WS rifles. As long as the barrel is the correct bore size.

Carry on,  CK  

[Fallon Kid]

WOW.  Thanks Larsen and Caladisi.  Clears up a lot in my thinking. I did go out today and tested the left bullet (COAL 2.375) Chambered and fired good. Tried 5 rds as would be shot in Wild Bunch (Roosevelt) and not as fast as a 73 but should hold own with any other long cartridge.   I will back off the 2FF currently loaded at 42 gn to about 37ish. I am so glad you guys are on my side. Actual Intelligence is better than anything out there. Thanks Pards, your friend, Jerry (Fallon Kid)

[Caladisi kid]

Per Fallon ;  ( I will back off the 2FF currently loaded at 42 gn to about 37ish. )

 

As you probably know but bears reminding, no air space in the case for BP loadings.  CK  

[Griff]

7 minutes ago, Caladisi kid said:

Per Fallon ;  ( I will back off the 2FF currently loaded at 42 gn to about 37ish. )

 

As you probably know but bears reminding, no air space in the case for BP loadings.  CK  

That 42 grains in a 32WS is probably a compressed load.  As I actually suspect the 37 grains will still be... just not as compressed.

[Fallon Kid]

Thanks Caladisi. Also a good friend will remind you to unplug the Lube/sizer heater before going to bed.  LOL Thanks my friend

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The bullet nose shape and the throat length in the beginning of the barrel both make a LOT of difference in what OAL is suitable for a rifle cartridge.  You NEVER are loading safely if the bullet jams into the rifling.  

 

2 reasons:

As you experienced, a bullet jammed in the rifling will pull itself out of the case if the round is NOT fired, but just ejected.  If you ever placed another round in that gun and it fit in the chamber, it would have been a disaster for you and the gun.

 

But even if you never "pull" a slug out of a case, the bullet being jammed into the rifling and fired will raise pressures A LOT.   The SAAMI specification for a cartridge overall length is the longest length of cartridge that a gun has to be designed for, to be able to feed through magazine and action.   SAAMI does not take into consideration how long or short the throat ahead of the chamber is, or what shape the nose of the bullet has!  And, since you have a short-throat gun, you have to seat the bullets deeper than you might in, say, a .30-30.   

 

So, back down the amount of powder to just bring powder up to the bottom of the neck of the case.  Load a round with a dead primer so it can be safely tested through the action.   Seat the bullet but apply no crimp that might hide the fact you are able to get the rifling to pull the slug.  Seat the bullet to put the crimp groove (very top groove) at the mouth of the case.   Run that through action.   Failures would be either rifling marks showing up on the nose of the bullet, or a pulled slug when you eject it from gun.    If you get either of those two failures, you will need a different bullet, one that is designed for the .32 Win Special and it's short throat.  

 

Now, if it worked fine, you can re-set the crimp pressure on the round, to form a nice roll crimp on your loaded rounds.

 

If the case with bullet loaded to the crimp groove feeds properly, that length will most likely shoot very well!     The proper maximum OVERALL LENGTH of the cartridge is one that never lets the bullet touch the rifling enough to start engraving the nose of the bullet.

 

good luck, GJ

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Looked in my Lyman reloading handbooks, both Cast Bullet and General loading.  They recommend a different overall length for every bullet they list for the .32 Win Special cartridge, both cast and jacketed.  They are PROPERLY matching bullet shape to fit the shortest throat that they consider a .32 WSpl rifle will have.  The cast bullets are seated as short as 2.400" in their data.  You need to be doing the same kind of short seating to avoid rifling interference.

 

But, you look at their data for .32-40 Winchester, and they show all loads out to the maximum SAAMI length.  It really depends upon the way chambers and throats are cut!

 

good luck, GJ

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

Maybe  that the nose diameter is slightly larger than your bore....it doesn't take but a .001 to jam up the works.  Do some measuring!

[Fallon Kid]

Garrison. Thanks for your spot on recommendations. I think I found my magic number for COAL. As you point out I really did have the great spirit of the west watching over me last time out.  I could have had myself a really bad day described a few posts ago. Today testing that gun/bullet I could have walked across egg shells. Thanks for your info and insight. Jerry

[Bailey Creek,5759]

Mike Venturino's book Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West.

Cast length 2.040.

Cast Bullet Diameter .321 to 323.

Overall Cartidge Length 2.56.

That length was with a 170 gr, bullet.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

44 minutes ago, Bailey Creek,5759 said:

Overall Cartridge Length 2.56.

 

Better show us a drawing or picture of the bullet design, or tell us the mold designation.   That's very long to fit a short throated chamber in .32 Win Special.    As written before, it depends very much on the nose design from crimp point forward.

 

good luck, GJ 

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

I ran 35 hrs of FFG 777 in my 32SPL with good results.  Bullet just touched the powder.  I loaded the cast bullet to the crimp groove.