Winchester 209 Primers set too deep in pocket on factory AA ammo

[Bearfoot Tracker]

I have been struggling with my wife's Stoeger 20 gauge Uplander Youth shotgun. She loves the size, weight and feel of the gun, but continue to have the light primer strikes with factory Winchester AA shells, and with reloaded Winchester AA hulls with Cheddite 209 Primers.  The light primer strikes happen sometimes on the first shot, and sometimes on the second shot .... more often on the second shot. The gun was tuned by a good smith. I have put the extended SS firing pins in and re-increased the tension on the opening lever spring thinking these might resolve the issue ..... IT DID NOT.

 

At the range today I took a closer look at the Winchester AA factory shells and saw that the shells are not consistent as far as how deep the primer is set within the primer ring. Some primers were more to the top of the ring, and some primers were set lower in the ring. It is those that are set lower in the ring that seems to be getting the light primer strikes. I visually inspected what I had left in a box and tried to separate the higher and lower rings and then shot those. I had more light primer strikes with with those set lower in the primer ring, and only one with the other.

 

THE GOOD: I have put a box of Remington Premier STS shells through the gun (some before the new firing pins / some after the new extended pins) without a single light primer strike. After visually inspecting those factory shells, the Remington STS primer ring sets slightly higher on the back of the shell, and the primer consistently sets higher within the primer ring.

 

I am starting to believe my wife's Stoeger light primer strikes may be due to the quality control of the Winchester AA ammo and not her gun. I will try and upload some pictures of the different shells, but not sure you can see in pictures what you actually see in person.

 

I think my final test is going to be reloading some Remington hulls with Cheddite primers and comparing those with some reloaded Winchester AA hulls with Cheddite primers that are not set so hard into the hull.

 

Your thoughts on the above would be appreciated (especially as to high hard to set primers into the hull). Thanks.

 

 

[Kid Rich]

I have noticed that also with Win primers. I use Cheddite for reloading sg and have not had a problem with them.

kR

[Ringer]

I know of others shooting factory Winchesters having the same problem.

 

Change brands.

[Bearfoot Tracker]

7 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

I have noticed that also with Win primers. I use Cheddite for reloading sg and have not had a problem with them.

kR

 

I had the same problem with some of the Cheddite primers reloaded in the AA hulls, but I might have been setting the primer too deep on the Lee Load All.

[Bearfoot Tracker]

6 minutes ago, Ringer said:

I know of others shooting factory Winchesters having the same problem.

 

Change brands.

My end goal is to get enough fired hulls so that I can load a reduced recoil load for my wife. I do not plan for her to shoot the factory shells very long as they have a little too much kick. I will not buy any more AA factory shells if I can get my hands on the Remington STS factory ammo.

[Renegade Roper]

We too had issues with our skb's and reloading Winchester AA hulls with Cheddite primers.  No issues with Winchester primers.  Knock on wood.

Roper

[Kid Rich]

Rem gun clubs are very good for reloading.

kR

[Ringer]

If you have a local trap club, join.

I was a member for 5 years before I shot a round of trap.

The benefits far outweighed the minimal cost of membership.

At our club I am able to purchase components at much lower prices and many members have stopped reloading and I am getting many Remington hulls given to me.

 

You will also make many new like minded friends. Can't put a price on that!

[Ringer]

I reload Cheddites have for 4 years.

I had to readjust the seating depth but have had no problems with failure to fire. (Knock on wood )

[Sedalia Dave]

8 minutes ago, Ringer said:

If you have a local trap club, join.

I was a member for 5 years before I shot a round of trap.

The benefits far outweighed the minimal cost of membership.

At our club I am able to purchase components at much lower prices and many members have stopped reloading and I am getting many Remington hulls given to me.

 

You will also make many new like minded friends. Can't put a price on that!

 

I'll be too old to shoot by the time I make it to the top of the waiting list for my semi-local shotgun shooting sports club.

[Sedalia Dave]

@Bearfoot Tracker Record the lot numbers off the boxes and call Winchester. Let us know what they say.

[Ringer]

1 minute ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

I'll be too old to shoot by the time I make it to the top of the waiting list for my semi-local shotgun shooting sports club.

Guess I'm lucky to have a smaller club near me.

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

In the past, I've had a few lots of both Federal 209A and the Win 209 primers which had deeply set primer cups in the battery cups.  When I loaded those shells, some of my double barrel guns would have FTF and light strikes.   The firing pins just were not hitting those primer cops - and these were sold as reloading components.  Yes, it's due to poor quality control at the factory.   I got no refunds or even replies from either company about the problems.   Cussed a little and bought replacement primers and moved on.  I would expect that those companies put the same primers in ammo, and there were light strikes for some guns there too.

 

The 5000 primer lot I had of Fed 209A primers I gave to another shooter and he fired them successfully in a semi-auto and a 97.  He may have been happy, but I wasn't quite so much.  

 

good luck, GJ

[Bearfoot Tracker]

10 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

In the past, I've had a few lots of both Federal 209A and the Win 209 primers which had deeply set primer cups in the battery cups.  When I loaded those shells, some of my double barrel guns would have FTF and light strikes.   The firing pins just were not hitting those primer cops - and these were sold as reloading components.  Yes, it's due to poor quality control at the factory.   I got no refunds or even replies from either company about the problems.   Cussed a little and bought replacement primers and moved on.  I would expect that those companies put the same primers in ammo, and there were light strikes for some guns there too.

 

The 5000 primer lot I had of Fed 209A primers I gave to another shooter and he fired them successfully in a semi-auto and a 97.  He may have been happy, but I wasn't quite so much.  

 

good luck, GJ

I would pay the extra $$ for the Remington STS 209 Primers over the others, but I doubt we will see those anytime in the near future.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

That (stepping up in price to high-priced Remington primers) would be tougher for me to chew.  Glad (somewhat) that Rem primers are all being put into ammo and none of their reloading component line is being marketed right now at what would be their high, even probably very high, prices.  Cheddite primers are widely available and more reasonably priced.  The French/Italians may just about take over the primer market unless American producers get their supplies, manufacturing and distribution together.  Reloaders really are feeling like the unwanted cousin at the dinner table right now.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

3 hours ago, Bearfoot Tracker said:

My end goal is to get enough fired hulls so that I can load a reduced recoil load for my wife. I do not plan for her to shoot the factory shells very long as they have a little too much kick. I will not buy any more AA factory shells if I can get my hands on the Remington STS factory ammo.

STS and Nitro hulls are available in large lots on gun auction sites for about 10-cents a hull.  Just order some .

[Bearfoot Tracker]

On 5/1/2023 at 2:30 PM, Ringer said:

If you have a local trap club, join.

I was a member for 5 years before I shot a round of trap.

The benefits far outweighed the minimal cost of membership.

At our club I am able to purchase components at much lower prices and many members have stopped reloading and I am getting many Remington hulls given to me.

 

You will also make many new like minded friends. Can't put a price on that!

Waiting list on shooting clubs that do trap and/or skeet in my area. My club does not have that. Today I played with loading some STS and AA hulls with the Cheddite primers. The STS went in firmly and never set to deep in the hull. The AA hulls you had to be light on the lever to set the primers in order to keep from them setting too low. I will try them out in a couple days to see if the setting of the primers help.

[Bearfoot Tracker]

On 5/1/2023 at 2:14 PM, Kid Rich said:

Rem gun clubs are very good for reloading.

kR

Kid Rich, Aren't the Gun Club shells ribbed. Her SxS would not shuck the ribbed Fiocchi shells, and don't know if the Gun Club shells would shuck either. Have you used them in a SxS?

[Diamond Jake]

On 5/1/2023 at 3:55 PM, Renegade Roper said:

We too had issues with our skb's and reloading Winchester AA hulls with Cheddite primers.  No issues with Winchester primers.  Knock on wood.

Roper

Same here, except with a Huglu-made Navy Arms.  I had about 40% FTF with AA hulls and Chedite primers, and 50% FTF with AA factory in some tests yesterday.  Handloads with WIN primers and factory Remington and Estate fired every single time.  I hadn't thought about the depth of primer; I'll try to check that.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

1 hour ago, Bearfoot Tracker said:

Kid Rich, Aren't the Gun Club shells ribbed. Her SxS would not shuck the ribbed Fiocchi shells, and don't know if the Gun Club shells would shuck either. Have you used them in a SxS?

I just shot Cal State using Gun Clubs in a SxS.  They all shucked with no hangups.  I find all the Gun Clubs I could possibly need for free at local clays ranges.  Try some at a local match where a buckle is not on the line.  You might like them.

[Kid Rich]

12 hours ago, Bearfoot Tracker said:

Kid Rich, Aren't the Gun Club shells ribbed. Her SxS would not shuck the ribbed Fiocchi shells, and don't know if the Gun Club shells would shuck either. Have you used them in a SxS?

Yes and yes. I have reloaded Gun Clubs as many as 5  times using BP or APP, the ribbing was mostly gone but they still shucked just fine. They are made of much better plastic and are a little smaller in diameter than the AA's. I use them in my 87 and 97, Shirttail uses them in her double and her 97.

kR

[Mysterious Stranger]

So, is this problem people are having due to the primer POCKETS on the AA hulls being too deep, or the Winchester primers being too thin?

 

On a handgun or rifle primer, I think the ideal depth of the top of the primer is apparently about .005" below the surface of the cartridge base. Do shotgun shells require a different depth below the surface?

 

I believe that normally you do want the primer to be fully seated in the primer pocket, so that when it is hit by the firing pin, it cannot "move" further down into the primer pocket instead of igniting.

 

[Michigan Slim]

I've loaded many hundreds of AA hulls with Cheddites and not had any issues from my double or 97. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

This thread USED to be about factory shells failing to fire.  Not how deep reloaders should seat a shotshell primer.  

good luck, GJ

[Bearfoot Tracker]

37 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

This thread USED to be about factory shells failing to fire.  Not how deep reloaders should seat a shotshell primer.  

good luck, GJ

Garrison Joe, you are correct as that was what I was noticing on the factory AA ammo, and was thinking that may be the reason for my light primer strikes.

 

After a visit to the range this morning, I am now convinced that that is not the issue with the light primer strikes. I took reloaded STS and AA ammo (with primers all set not to low). I still got some light primer strikes on both the first trigger pull & second trigger pull. And, a couple times on both trigger pulls.

 

I am now noticing the extractor. Could the extractor have been beveled and smoothed down too much? I don't know.  With the gun broke open and you set a shell into the gun, the back of the shells sets down into a little past the outside edge of the extractor. I also noticed with the gun closed there is a minute bit of play in head space.

 

I will leave it at this on this thread, and will ask that question on a new thread. Thanks for your input.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

How can you set a flanged 209 primer too deeply?

[Bearfoot Tracker]

2 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

How can you set a flanged 209 primer too deeply?

I would think that would depend on how soft the metal is around the primer pocket. Also, the reason some people use primer pocket penner tool. It should not happen on factory ammo, but you could visually see differences between some of the AA factory ammo, but STS ammo was consistent. Keep in mind this is all 20 gauge.

 

At this point, I am now convinced it was not the ammo causing the problem with my light primer strikes. I started a different thread about that.