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1866 extraction problems


Make do

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HI - my Uberti 1866 ( I acquired it used 61XXX serial number  ) started to have extraction problems, leaving a fired case in the chamber and loading a new one on top. So I think it might be the extractor. It seems to move up and down a bit, easily.  I have enclosed two pictures of the extractor up and down position. What are your thoughts? Also I noticed a grove in the top of the receiver is this just a casting flaw? Continuing my tear down I thought I would check the loading gate because I had heard they break sometimes and mine doesn't seem to be like others I have seen pictures of. Is it a problem? Lastly if the extractor is going bad what other parts wear out at about the same time. and should be replaced? Thanks

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13 minutes ago, WOODFOX , sass#34179 said:

looks like your extractor has a bunch of crud under it

Woodfox

I had the exact same extractor issue with my '73 and found the bolt block sold by Scarlett extremely helpful in getting the extractor back in place after I had cleaned under it (I found the tiny extractor pin easy to remove with just a punch but I would recommend the block to aid in getting it back in).  What I found on the bolt under where the extractor sits looked like the bottom of an oven that hadn't been cleaned in years.

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I did take out the extractor and clean out the slot under it with a pick, (my initial thought was dirt under it) and then put it back together before the picture (the pin was easy to put in) so I am sure there isn't and dirt under it. 

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15 minutes ago, Make do said:

I did take out the extractor and clean out the slot under it with a pick, (my initial thought was dirt under it) and then put it back together before the picture (the pin was easy to put in) so I am sure there isn't and dirt under it. 

You might want to check again to see if there is hardened soot there, not just dirt.  I used a solvent and wire brush to get rid of it.

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If that gap is what it looks like after cleaning under it I would suspect the extractor itself is bent. All three of my '73's (same bolt/extractor setup with the only big difference being yours have no extension on top of the extractor to push back the dust cover) sit flush with the bottom of the channel and move up to go over the case rim but then they snap back to the bottom of the groove.

Your loading gate is different than mine so no help here.

Machining marks in the receiver where the bolt rides are pretty common. Yours looks like something got caught in there some time in the past and dug that one. Since the bolt rides on the flat parts of the receiver with the "flanges" of the bolt and the links carrying the brunt of the load, unless it is dragging on something like the extension (meaning more cleaning then polishing :)) I would not worry about it. Another possibility is the back of the bolt may have a burr that would be really obvious, and since you didn't mention it, probably not likely but might check.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gaterway Kid

If the holes for the extractor and the bolt lined up with out a little pressure on the extractor to achieve some tension that would also make me check the extractor to see if it is bent

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Second that the extractor looks bent. It should not stay up like your second picture shows without pressure holding it there. It should spring back down into the groove. I would replace it. When you press down on the extractor does the other end stick up from the bolt? That could cause the damage to the frame in the 4th picture.

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Toggle link extractors are easy to check for failure.

 

Travel - the arm of the extractor has to come back down into the slot fully, or the hook will not fully engage the rim of the case.   Your picture shows it does not.  Usually, a worn out extractor (it's a flat spring, after all)

 

Tension - with action open an inch or two, catch the tip of the extractor with your finger and try to lift up.  If it really hurts your finger to lift the extractor so that the hook would be free from the cartridge rim (if one were in the action), then you have sufficient tension.   Measured with a trigger pull gauge, I get that at about 8 or 10 pounds.    If it does not pain you to pull the extractor tip up, it's too weak.   Spring worn or "bent" wrong. 

 

Function - extractor should hold a loaded round against the bolt face firmly enough that a moderate shake of the gun doesn't dislodge the round.  (Open action enough that the round is not sitting in chamber during test)  And check that ejection of a loaded round (as well as empties) is 100%.

 

Not worth trying to bend (re-arc) the spring.  It won't hold a new set very long.   Order a new one and put it in, or have a gunsmith do it.   Hard part on the older guns is that 1/16" pin - removing it and putting it back in.   A bench block helps, a special Uberti bolt pin block is ideal.  

 

Use a new pin.  A hard material for this is the shank of a 1/16" drill bit.  I use a soft iron wire (0.069" rebar tie wire, straightened out and thinned slightly with sandpaper and drill chuck to fit the hole - soft enough to drill out if it won't drive out next time.  You will have a hard time drilling out a piece of drill bit.

 

Several of the parts vendors offer extractors.   I'd order one.   I like Long Hunter Supply for this.

 

good luck, GJ

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Just looking at your pictures it’s the extractor.  As @Hellbender said it looks like you might have some hard residue still there (looking at the bottom of the bolt). If you have a sonic cleaner I’d take it apart and put everything in for a nice long cycle, then clean, inspect, oil and see what it looks like.  Even a new extractor will give you problems if there is a build up in the extractor groove. 

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thanks all-checked for crud none -  extractor will not go down into the notch, and it will not hold a shell on the bolt face - so it must be bent ordering a new one and pin to go with it thanks -

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PLUS ONE for Abilene.  First up, The Bad News:  Your Extractor is shot.  The Good News:  Easy to source a new one.  Other good news, your Ladle (loading gate) is the Original Design, bullet proof.  Keep it.  The gouge in the raceway for the Breach Block (bolt) is a casting flaw full of crud. Old toothbrush and elbow grease.  Your rifle has been around for quite a while but will accept all current Uberti Parts and current after-market parts for Uberti.

 

Not a good idea to use a drill shank to replace the cross pin.  Way too hard and way to difficult to drill out if necessary.  Order a new cross pin to go with the the new extractor. 

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20 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Your loading gate is the old bulletproof one before Uberti "improved" it to save a few cents.  


I’m in agreement.

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All of the above, PLUS:

the lower extractor tab is not clearly visible in your photo, but it looks a bit broomed off and rounded.   It would probably not affect your problem of failed withdrawal of the case from the chamber, but it will affect the flipping of the extracted case clear of the receiver on the forward lever stroke.

(You asked about other things possibly needing attention).

Newer bolts have a removable/replaceable lower extractor tab, but yours doesn't appear to be removable.  Options would be to replace the whole bolt assy. ("+- drop-in" and available for about $130) or TIG-repair the existing tab.  If you don't have access to a TIG, the bolt replacement is likely going to be cheaper than a gunsmith. 

JMTBW.

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On 4/24/2023 at 11:55 AM, Make do said:

thanks all-checked for crud none -  extractor will not go down into the notch, and it will not hold a shell on the bolt face - so it must be bent ordering a new one and pin to go with it thanks -

Regardung crud:

The extractor channel is directly against the top edge of the chamber during firing.  So any blow-back often is forced right in under the extractor and cooked on. 

 

But also, contrary to common thinking, replacement extractors are not always drop-in parts.   They often require some careful fitting.

If the thickened,  tapered bead at the front of the extractor is poorly fitted (too long or too vertically thick), the bead can pry the extractor up slightly on full bolt closure, exacerbating the blow-back issue and if severe enough it can cause extraction failure. 

It is possible that your gun has had the extractor replaced and poorly fitted. 

 

With the bolt fully closed (no chambered round or case), the extractor needs to remain all the way down in its channel.  It should be just 15 or so  thousandths shy of making contact with the top REAR of the receiver recess above the chamber face, so the spring extractor can slide up over a case rim during closure.  But at full closure, the front top of the extractor bead should rest very close to the front top of the receiver recess, to hold the extractor hook down against the case during firing.

(edited)

 

With a chambered round in place, the extractor hook should be resting on the top of the case FORWARD OF THE CASE RIM.  The hook needs to be sharp edged, rather than broomed or peened down.  Peening can result from the part not being correctly fitted, as above. 

 

Finally, extractors should be removed and cleaned more than once a year, under normal use.  

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2 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

But also, contrary to common thinking, replacement extractors are not always drop-in parts.   They often require some careful fitting.

 

Haven't seen many pards who believe that a new toggle-link extractor does not need fitting.   It's almost always required to have to file/stone at least the tail of the extractor to be able to get the pin into it inside the bolt.   And the nose usually needs fitting into the extractor slot in the barrel, too.   Many are too long and hit the barrel.    Look for rub marks.   And, yes, if the bottom of the nose lifts the extractor off the rim when round chambers, that should be fixed too.  That can be a cause of the extractor "missing" the rim under speed.

 

And, I rarely remove an extractor "just because it's got time on it."     Each removal and reinstallation requires a pretty deep disassembly of the rifle.  Often, a little brake cleaner spray and working the extractor will give enough cleanup.  I've got a few 15 year old 73s that have never needed the extractor removed for deep cleaning.  And that's with the notoriously dirty .45 Colt cartridge.  YMMV of course.

 

good luck, GJ

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Haven't seen many pards who believe that a new toggle-link extractor does not need fitting.   It's almost always required to have to file/stone at least the tail of the extractor to be able to get the pin into it inside the bolt.   And the nose usually needs fitting into the extractor slot in the barrel, too.   Many are too long and hit the barrel.    Look for run marks.   And, yes, if the bottom of the nose lifts the extractor off the rim when round chambers, that should be fixed too.  That can be a cause of the extractor "missing" the rim under speed.

 

And, I rarely remove an extractor "just because it's got time on it."     Each removal and reinstallation requires a pretty deep disassembly of the rifle.  Often, a little brake cleaner spray and working the extractor will give enough cleanup.  I've got a few 15 year old 73s that have never needed the extractor removed for deep cleaning.  And that's with the notoriously dirty .45 Colt cartridge.  YMMV of course.

 

good luck, GJ

Thank you. (I was hoping you would clarify)

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8 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

All of the above, PLUS:

the lower extractor tab is not clearly visible in your photo, but it looks a bit broomed off and rounded.   It would probably not affect your problem of failed withdrawal of the case from the chamber, but it will affect the flipping of the extracted case clear of the receiver on the forward lever stroke.

(You asked about other things possibly needing attention).

Newer bolts have a removable/replaceable lower extractor tab, but yours doesn't appear to be removable.  Options would be to replace the whole bolt assy. ("+- drop-in" and available for about $130) or TIG-repair the existing tab.  If you don't have access to a TIG, the bolt replacement is likely going to be cheaper than a gunsmith. 

JMTBW.

I have been told that my 1866 is an old one (without the W in front of the serial number) and things like the short strokes sold wont fit. Do you know in the newly manufactured bolts will fit in an older gun. I had noticed that the tab on the bottom of the bolt looked a little worn and had considered buying a new bolt. Are there good brands and ones to stay away from. Thanks

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33 minutes ago, Make do said:

I have been told that my 1866 is an old one (without the W in front of the serial number) and things like the short strokes sold wont fit. 

I have an Uberti 1866 without a W in front of the serial number (If I recall correctly I had traced it to a 2001 manufacture date a few years ago) and it is short stroked.  It was like that when I bought it used and the person I bought it from didn't know who had installed it.

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SS kits should fit, I believe. It is the really old Navy Arms '66's that different innards. I'd say yours is about 2000. My '66 is 81xxx and 2000..  Others can verify.

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