What to Upgrade First?

[Bladesmith, SASS 113085]

Hi All. I’m new to SASS and starting out with a pair of Uberti Pistols and Rossi rifle. I know the general consensus is that most people end up running Vaqueros/New Vaqueros and Uberti ‘73s. As I think about what I might upgrade down the road, it seems to me that from a performance standpoint, the ‘73 can be noticeably faster (when run well) compared to a Rossi whereas the primary argument for the Rugers seems to be reliability as opposed to increased speed. Am I follow the conversations on those points correctly?
 

So when it comes time to upgrade something, it seems to me it would seem to make sense to go with the rifle first provided I’m not having malfunctions with the Uberti’s since doing so would probably have the most noticeable benefit. Interested to know if others have different thoughts or recommendations. Thanks!

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

You didn’t mention shotgun? When I started a really good shooter told me you win matches with your pistols and lose them with your shotgun. Most people including me start with a cheap shotgun and don’t consider it. I finally switched to an SKB and have never looked back. I wouldn’t worry about changing anything until you get to the point that you feel like your guns are holding you back.

 

 Randy 

[Jack Spade]

I will second to get to a good shotgun as quick as you can. 

[Dantankerous]

I have seen a feller or two cuss and want to throw their '92 rifle. If'n yours runs fine now look into a good shotgun. A Stoeger will work just fine.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

A lot of new shooters start thinking about upgrades before they have enough time at the firing line. Play with your own guns for awhile and borrow others to see what suits you before you plunk down any money. 
 

Patience, Grasshopper…

[Dantankerous]

Yeah, what Abilene Slim said.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Rugers are certainly known for their reliability but don't discount the Ubertis if you like them.  Evil Roy and Holy Terror started with Rugers but then switched to Ubertis that had been tuned and continued winning championships.  Shalako Joe won EOT with Rugers but the first time he ever shot a Colt he fell in love with the feel and then won his next EOT with Ubertis.  If they are set up right and with good springs they are plenty rugged.  So yeah, in my opinion upgrade your rifle and shotgun first.  But also, just like the advice given to folks who don't have any guns yet, try some tuned Rugers , '73's and shotguns from some pards at a match and that will help you decide if you simply like the feel of them better.  I never shot my '92 again after I got my 1st '66 

[Fallon Kid]

Just my opinion but someone told me years ago, if you want to learn guitar, start with a good guitar right off the bat. I think it holds true here. The pistols: Ruger or Uberti. I just like the feel of Uberti vs Ruger. Pietta 73’s are OK choice but I’d stick with Uberti  based on the upgrades needed. I think short stroke and lowered hammers are a must.  If you can, get a set of pistols comp ready. Will save time and money.

The rifle: Again Uberti would be my choice. 1866 or 1873 are decent and stroke kits are available. PGW sells a good kit for about 200 bucks. Be advised this kit is not a drop in and knowing a bit of gun workings is a must, else a gunsmith.

Shotgun: This is dealers choice between SXS or 97. I have several of each. If going with a 97 I would check classified ads and get a Winchester. That is what most 97 people shoot so go with the herd. There must be a reason they go that route. A side by side, some jump on Stoger for the price but my experience, if you don’t mind using your knee to open each time. Stoger is stiff bit can be somewhat slicked up pursuant to the lever spring and safety. Getting the barrel to drop and cock on its own is not a skill I own.  Suggest a hammered shotgun. Not a candidate for the match winner but shooting is fun and that is the main point for most of us.

Thanks for reading but be advised I shoot so bad that most matches I’d be hard pressed to even test positive for GSR. Welcome Pard to the best time of your life. Jerry

[Griff]

For the majority of folks involved in cowboy action shooting Uberti (insert any brand name here) pistols or a Rossi (insert any brand name here) rifle will allow them to work toward their goals in competing.  However, at some time, those particular firearms are going to need some work to allow their owner to progress to another level.  Not every World or National championship was won with a Ruger or '73 rifle.  It may be that the majority have been... or that could simply be the result that they are grossly over-rated and therefore overly represented.  Nothing works in the game without some work, including Ruger and especially the '73 rifle.  And Ubertis, Piettas, Colts, and Ruger all react well to quality work.  Sometimes they even need parts replaced and certainly need tuning.  ALL of them.  '73s are no magic panacea to whatever ails your Rossi.  Give a quiick shooter stock Rossi and a stock '73...  he'll outrun the '73 with the Rossi.  Give 'em a reworked, slicked up and tuned Rossi, and they'll literally run away from a stock '73.  A lot of the work on a Rossi can be done by any competent mechanic.  Same can be said for the '73.  However, the Rossi is mostly labor, whereas the '73 needs parts to significantly improve performance.  Same thing with shotguns.  

[ORNERY OAF]

Good shotgun, take the money you are gonna use to upgrade everything and use it for practice ammo. Run the hell out of those guns, then decide what you need. Run them hard in matches and it will become clear what you need to slick up, most of the time it's the shooter who needs tuned. Some of us run stock guns. Watch the fast guys, technique is a HUGE thing in this sport.

[Bladesmith, SASS 113085]

1 hour ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

 

You didn’t mention shotgun?

 

Good eye! I have a latter version of the TTN ‘97 that I had worked over. I know the quality of the brand can be spotting, but it seems well made and is running well. I just didn’t mention the shotgun because I’m planning on sticking with it, barring anything unforeseen.

 

Thank you everyone for the great feedback so far!!

[Dilli GaHoot Galoot]

I know I'm new to SASS, but not new to shooting, so for what it's worth I think you should shoot them until you can out run them and once you figure out where they are holding you back, fix that 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

8 minutes ago, Bladesmith, SASS 113085 said:

Good eye! I have a latter version of the TTN ‘97 that I had worked over. I know the quality of the brand can be spotting, but it seems well made and is running well. I just didn’t mention the shotgun because I’m planning on sticking with it, barring anything unforeseen.

 

Thank you everyone for the great feedback so far!!

I don’t shoot a 97, but I know some extremely fast shooters that do. Quite frequently I’ve heard you will need at least one backup. I also have a backup for my double and try to shoot them both enough that it doesn’t matter which one I pick up!

 

Enjoy the sport and remember if you know how many guns you have, you don’t have enough!

 

 Randy 

[Captain Bill Burt]

I think learning to shoot CAS with guns that are rough can lead to developing bad habits. There's nothing wrong with trying different guns before laying down cash, but I would get a quality rifle and shotgun as quickly as circumstances allow.  Pistols don't need as much IMHO.  Buy a pair of SASS Vaqueros, maybe put in lighter springs and you're good to go.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Get the VERY BEST equipment you can afford from day one.

The "run what you have until you get better than it" folks are WRONG.

As Captain said - poor equipment leads to focusing on things other than the stage; leading to bad habits and ingraining bad habits leads to poor outcomes.

 

Yes, talent and practice will always rule the day - but don't let anyone tell you that talent and practice can overcome poor equipment.

 

I am a top third shooter - maybe better on a good day - but if I have my guns, my ammo, my leather and everybody else has to run stock untuned rifles, stock untuned pistols, stock untuned shotguns, factory spec. ammo and floppy mexican leather?

 

Barring any meltdown on my part - I won't guarantee a win; but my placement will end up MUCH HIGHER on the scoresheet than my usual.

 

Reliable smooth equipment matters.

Always has - always will.

 

[Griff]

Thank you Creeker... I kinda meant to say that before you replace what you have... get them worked on to improve them to be the "best they can be"... which for a lot of folks is all they'll ever need.  Whatever you do, don't flog them to within an inch of their useable life.  I've seen guns that wore out way before their time, by "over-zealous" mechanics removing metal where only polishing is needed.  

[Bladesmith, SASS 113085]

39 minutes ago, Griff said:

I kinda meant to say that before you replace what you have... get them worked on to improve them to be the "best they can be"...

Thanks Griff. To give a little more context, I did have everything tuned by Daniel Turpin over at Coyote Moon who did a great job. I’m really quite happy with my current set up. Everything is running smoothly and it’s for sure the operator that’s slowing things down at the moment and not the equipment. My post was really just in the spirit of looking ahead and wondering which piece of equipment (if any) folks found the most benefit in upgrading when the time comes.

 

12 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Enjoy the sport and remember if you know how many guns you have, you don’t have enough!

And to Randy’s point, it’s just fun keeping an eye put for the next tool for the tool box! 

[Dantankerous]

I started with stock Ruger Vaqueros back in 2009 and the only thing I've changed on them is a little lighter springs and SBH hammers (I shoot one handed). They work just fine. Never thought I needed a super high end pair of pistols because I know my limitations. Rifle however is a different story. Cody Conagher 1873s for me please for my main match rifles.

 

Shotgun choice all depends on if you want hammered sxs, hammerless sxs, pump or lever.  Plenty of support with each, just figure out what type you want to learn and lean into the techniques and nuances hard to master it.

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

My first main match rifle was a Rossi 92 in ,44 Magnum.  My second main match rifle was Winchester 73 in .32-20,   I was faster with the 73 than with the 92.

Today, I have 4 92s, and 2 73s.

Second 92 was an Armi San Marco, .45.  It's action was so TERRIBLE, that it was the first rifle I ever had an action job done on.  It had to be done, it was basically unshootable.  After I did that, I suddenly realized that the Rossi, while okay, was a little clunky, but I didn't worry about it.  When I also obtained a real Winchester rebarrelled to .44 Magnum, an another in .32-20, I came to realize that the 92 can have a really fantastic action.   I finally had my Rossi smoothed out, and I've never regretted doing so.

 

By the way, I also have 2 66's and a Henry, which are for all practical purposes more or less the same as the 73.

So which is better?

Well, my favorite main match rifle is an AWA Lightning.  I now have 4 Lightnings, and will soon have a 5th.   I recommend you consider the Lightning. 

But that's very much a minority opinion.

As far as 92 vs 73 goes, both will serve you well, and I have seen both used by top 10 shooters.  It all comes down to this, shoot what works for you and that you enjoy shooting.

 

With regards to pistols; the Colt SAA (or copies thereof) and the Ruger seem to be the most popular, and I'd be hard pressed to say that either one is more common than the other.  (Anything else, and there are other things, are also rans)  I have many Colts and clones, and not a single Ruger.  But again, that's my personal preference.

 

Shotgun...  You'll see a lot 97s and a lot of SxS's  I'd say a fairly equal mix of the 2.   87s are an also ran.  I prefer the 97, with a 30" barrel.   The long barrel is another minority opinion, but it works for me.  Of course, taking out the Parker is always fun. 

Have you noticed a theme?  Shoot what works for you.  You can't go wrong with that.

[Sam Sackett]

Best thing you can do is work on YOU..  most of us cannot outrun our equipment. Work on your transitions, etc. you may one day start outrunning your equipment, but most of us don’t. I’m not saying that the latest Codymatic won’t feel real good to you, but the basics and the amount of practice time you are willing to put in will determine where you end up on the score sheet. 
 

I’m in it for the fun can camaraderie. I am not disciplined enough, nor do I want to, to practice with, say a couple hundred rounds per day, to be at the top of the pack. I am satisfied with being in the upper third, maybe half. I have a life outside of CAS. Not everyone does. 
 

PS. I like my 92’s  And my Stoeger. And my Rugers, both old and new. 

 

Sam Sackett 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

4 hours ago, Sam Sackett said:

Best thing you can do is work on YOU..  most of us cannot outrun our equipment. Work on your transitions, etc. you may one day start outrunning your equipment, but most of us don’t.

This game and improvements do not occur in a vacuum.

Skill and practice do not win matches without smooth, reliable equipment.

The best equipment does not win matches in the absence of a skilled shooter.

 

BUT all other things being equal - better equipment will place higher than not.

An average shooter WILL pickup time (and places on the scoresheet) with superior equipment.

Yes, there are shooters that can operate bone stock pistols and stock 92 rifles faster than most can run the very best equipment - BUT these shooters will still be slower than their potential with better equipment.

[One Gun Jimmy]

Just to try and keep it simple, on your post questions only.

 

I'd upgrade to a 73 first.

 

In my research,  I looked at all the options and the 73 was the "big purchase" I didn't skimp on.

 

I shoot uberti pistols in .357

Taylor 73 20" .357

Stoeger coach supreame 12Ga.

 

My 73 is bone stock and an absolute dream to shoot....needs shirt stroked something awful I found after trying a buddies after a match....but it is an amazing rifle. 

 

What I found in research was basically this.  

 

Uberti/Pietta/Clones = Vaquero (opinions very)

 

SKB/CZ > Stoeger---universal opinion.

 

97s are fast but not a huge advantage with table staging.

 

1887 Are for people who love pain

 

1873 winchester is KING....unless shooting a category that restricts them there is no point to buy any other rifle...unless you need a back up...in that case buy a second 73.

 

 

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

On 4/22/2023 at 5:34 PM, Bladesmith, SASS 113085 said:

Hi All. I’m new to SASS and starting out with a pair of Uberti Pistols and Rossi rifle. I know the general consensus is that most people end up running Vaqueros/New Vaqueros and Uberti ‘73s. As I think about what I might upgrade down the road, it seems to me that from a performance standpoint, the ‘73 can be noticeably faster (when run well) compared to a Rossi whereas the primary argument for the Rugers seems to be reliability as opposed to increased speed. Am I follow the conversations on those points correctly?
 

So when it comes time to upgrade something, it seems to me it would seem to make sense to go with the rifle first provided I’m not having malfunctions with the Uberti’s since doing so would probably have the most noticeable benefit. Interested to know if others have different thoughts or recommendations. Thanks!

I think a Uberti 73 would be a great improvement , one that’s slicked up (out of the box not so much). 

[Bladesmith, SASS 113085]

6 hours ago, One Gun Jimmy said:

 

Just to try and keep it simple, on your post questions only.

 

Thanks One Gun Jimmy that’s a helpful summary and in line with my research as well. 
 

8 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Skill and practice do not win matches without smooth, reliable equipment.

The best equipment does not win matches in the absence of a skilled shooter.

An excellent summary Creeker!

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE for Griff absolutely

 

PLUS ONE for Creeker absolutely

 

Plus, you would/will be surprised at just how fast a 92 can be with just a little work.  It cannot be shortstrok'd but it can be really really quick and smooth.  Look to getting a DVD and a part kit from Nate Kiowa Jones (Stevesgunz).  You will be amazed.

 

I don't personally like Uberti.  Never have.  I like Pietta, especially the Great Western II.  Best value for dollar for CAS and need the least amount of work to be VERY user friendly.

 

I like Hammer Double shotguns.  Very cowboy.  97s are not cowboy.  Most double guns are a good start.  Remember though, if you have someone "funnel" the breach end of the chambers, with the exception of cowboy shooters, it will be unsellable.

 

Speed is a fleeting mistress.  Speed ONLY comes with practice.  Lots and lots of practice.  Being in the Top 10 is VERY expensive. 

[Cypress Sun]

On 4/22/2023 at 6:43 PM, Dantankerous said:

I have seen a feller or two cuss and want to throw their '92 rifle. If'n yours runs fine now look into a good shotgun. A Stoeger will work just fine.

 

Many years ago, I was at the Florida State match in Orlando Florida (The Last Stand). I always called it the Weewahootie range after the name of the road and match director, Weewahootie AKA Robert Leath (RIP).

Next to the first two stages is a retention pond of medium size that was known to have a large gator residing there. Anyway, after a couple of stages where my '92 was not feeding, not doing anything right and aggravating the hell out of me. We got down to stage 1 and the damn thing did it again. 

 

I wanted to throw it in the lake by throwing it, by the barrel, like a tomahawk but figured I'd get called for some kind of penalty. The splash would have been worth it.

[Kirk James]

FIRST- DECIDE HOW COMPETITIVE YOU WANT TO BE AND COMMIT TO PRACTICE.   First I would get a 73  with short stroke kit, then tune up your Uberti's or get a pair of Ruger's tuned,  you can stay with a good smithed Stoeger for a while, then may want to upgrade to a SKB-I agree with Creeker in getting the best you can afford at the time.  One of the first shooters I meet was Hell's Comin and he told me not to waste my time talking to him about going fast unless you are committed to training and practice.  As Creeker committed; get the best you can afford.  There is a learning curve with every upgrade you make.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 hour ago, Kirk James said:

... There is a learning curve with every upgrade you make.

Yeah, so stop wrapping your thumb around the rifle stock for every shot NOW, and it will make it easier when you get the short stroked '73  

[One Gun Jimmy]

1 hour ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Yeah, so stop wrapping your thumb around the rifle stock for every shot NOW, and it will make it easier when you get the short stroked '73  

I consider it a testament to my shooting ability...but for CAS...this is HARD to stop

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, One Gun Jimmy said:

I consider it a testament to my shooting ability...but for CAS...this is HARD to stop

Bad technique will quickly eat up any advantage good equipment provides.

The lever action "thumb wrap" adds 1/10 of a second per shot - thats 1 FULL second per stage - 6 seconds per match.

You are spotting your competition a miss every match.

 

Every component of our game has a time requirement to complete - some of those components are mental, some physical and some mechanical.

The time on the scoresheet is a sum of all of these (plus penalties, which are usually mental lapses).

But the scoresheet is perfectly neutral - it does not care where or how you shave 10ths and 100ths off your time.

 

Mentally - are you prepared when the buzzer goes off?

Have you examined EVERY movement, every transition, every initial staging position to ensure you are being the most efficient you can possibly be?

Have you examined the sweep/ round count for the most efficient way to attack it?

Have you visualized yourself sucessfully navigating every requirement of the stage so you are completely ready?

 

Physically - are you moving thru the stage as fast you can safely?  Are you sure?

Are you prepared to shoot the match - well rested - well hydrated...

Do you need to go pee?  

Are you wasting time on extraneous motions that do NOT advance your stage?

Thumb wrapping, foot shuffling, etc.

 

Equipment - do your holsters hold your pistols securely or are you thinking about holding them in the holster instead of the stage?

Do they stay open and accept reholstering cleanly or do they flop closed?

Do you trust your ammo 100% everytime to go bang and go BANG consistently - even if ammo is working; bang, BANG, poof, BANG, bang is distracting and moves your focus.

Does your shotgun shuck cleanly EVERYTIME?

Are your firearms smooth and reliable?

Are your sights highly visible (while remaining legal)?

Do your boots hurt your feet?

Does that vest limit your movement?

 

And a million other things to consider.

Lastly - anything you can do OFF the clock is infinitely faster than anything you do on the clock.

Stand in the right spot in relation to the table - don't take steps after the beep to be where you should have been before the beep.

Push your glasses up on your nose, raise your shotgun shells, slide your holsters to where they need to be situated before the stage starts - not after.

If your hat moves during the stage - let it go - falling off doesnt affect your time; but messing with it does.

 And AFTER the beep - for the next 12 to 45 seconds that the stage takes - maintain your focus on NOTHING but the stage.

 

There are chunks of time to be found in all three components - mental, physical and equipment.

[Bladesmith, SASS 113085]

6 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

There are chunks of time to be found in all three components - mental, physical and equipment

Excellent post Creeker. Lots of important points to consider. Thanks!

[Captain Bill Burt]

When I was first starting out I remember my Pard Koda Joe telling me ‘I shoot faster than you with all the guns, so how come you consistently beat me?’

 

Because I have very little wasted motion during a stage, but my shooting speed is only so so.

 

Now I’m watching Iron Cowboy running 13 and 14 second stages and thinking ‘how does this turkey shoot a 14 when I know the shotgun took 5 seconds or more?
 

He shoots really really fast, but his shotgun technique is mediocre.

 

As Creeker said, it ALL matters. I have a good Pard who always stands back from the table. At the beep he takes a step and starts shooting. That’s about 3 seconds added to every monthly match he shoots, more for major matches.

 

Putting your long gun down with both hands, putting long guns down with your hand under them, holstering then moving, shucking then moving, wrapping your thumb, waiting to draw until you get to the shooting position, placing your feet wrong, rehearsing with pauses between targets, all that non shooting stuff adds up.

 

Less than optimal equipment can impact all of that.

If you have a stiff lever safety spring that needs too much pressure, you’re going to develop the habit of wrapping.

 

Have a shotgun that won’t open easily? You’re going to get used to keeping your off hand on the forearm to long in order to pull it open.

 

Hard to lever your rifle? You’re going to get used to having to get back on target as your exertions cause the barrel to wobble all over the place.

 

Inferior leather? You’ll develop poor reholstering technique.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Everybody seems to think they can buy magic shortcuts to the podium. 

For a new shooter, short stroked rifles and pistols will offer little improvement, until the shooter has several thousand rounds downrange and has his or her grip, timing, target acquisition, TRANSITIONS,  and mind in proper order.  

THEN, the various short strokes and other refined gunsmithing work will improve your times.  There really is no shorter road around practice.  JMHO. 

Buy good equipment to begin with, THEN learn to use it, THEN consider making mechanical refinements. 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

The single most important piece of equipment has been totally ignored.  Before any of the stuff mentioned above can be of any utility you have to get it from the parking lot to the range and then move it from stage to stage.  You have to have a first class gun cart otherwise your back will hurt so bad from carrying that heavy junk around you will not be able to shoot.  Forget this crap about modifying a baby stroller or jogging carriage or converted golf bag or converted hand truck from Harbor Freight.  They are junk and will look crappy.  If you look crappy how can you shoot well?  You need a quality, lightweight, purpose built gun cart.  Once you get to the line refreshed and with no back strain you can begin to worry about all the other stuff.

[Bladesmith, SASS 113085]

5 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

You need a quality, lightweight, purpose built gun cart.

Funny you should mention that! I worked a little more on that project this evening. It’s still in progress, but I’m making headway!

 

As an aside, thanks to all who have commented. It started out as a post about equipment, but there’s been a lot of great advice that I know will be helpful to myself and other new folks.