Training for Spotter-Counters

[Dusty Devil Dale]

14 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

This problem only surfaced at the VERY FIRST SASS match and has been a circumstance ever since.  Training??  Training to SPOT??  It's a trick suggestion > > > > right??  If folks can't/don't pay attention at the shooters meeting, what makes anyone think they will attend "Spotter Training??"  gimmie a break.

 

PLUS ONE for Creeker.

How about at least a handbook describing what to watch for and what is and is not a miss?

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

How about at least a handbook describing what to watch for and what is and is not a miss?

I think an "overview" of every duty/ position on a CAS posse would certainly not hurt.

 

A handout that could be given to new shooters that explains the differing tasks that have to happen for a posse to run - and a overview of why they exist - what their duties are - how best to perform those duties and what positions might be consolidated or performed differently at different matches.

From 

Loading Table Supervisor

Expeditor

Spotters

Brasspickers

Target resetters

Timer Operator

Unloading Table Supervisor

 

To the expectations upon the shooter themselves.

 

If this is a task you wish to undertake - I would be happy to offer my assistance and input.

Send me a message.

 

[Black Hills Barb]

2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I think an "overview" of every duty/ position on a CAS posse would certainly not hurt.

 

For most of a shooting season I highlighted a different posse task and its importance at each shooter meeting.

I also encourage new shooters to "spot" - not to be a spotter but to stand in a position to do so and compare their assessment with that of the spotters.  It not only helps them to get the scenario straight in their heads but they learn more about the penalties that are called, etc.  

[Scarlett]

On 4/22/2023 at 2:43 AM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

But I always told my shooters the EXACT SAME THING.

Not everybody standing here today came to this match with the expectation of winning - but everybody came here with the hope that they would perform at their very best.

And if the shooter is on the firing line giving their all - then, they DESERVE that same level of effort from their TO and their spotters.

If you find that you are incapable or unwilling to provide your very best for them - then hand off the timer; give up the spotting stick - because the shooter deseves better.

Thanks @Creeker, SASS #43022 for this post. You are so right. Yesterday on the last stage (shooting FCGF) on a 5 shot target I was called for a miss. One spotter pointed out the edge to the other two and they were not persuaded. They couldn’t have “seen” the miss because the stage design/berm didn’t really allow for side view spotting. It frustrates me - but I tell myself that I need to shoot more in the center so it’s more obvious and clear….until you have a dead target. 
 

Training is a waste of time because shooters won’t go. Too proud, too busy, too indifferent. As Posse Marshal, I make similar announcement at the beginning. As TO, I look to make sure the spotters are aware the shooter is on the line and will holler at them if they are lollygagging. As a shooter, if someone is spotting and not paying attention, I will nudge them or relieve them.

 

it’s about RESPECT of my fellow shooters and the game. The 60 second shooter deserves 100% of our attention as the 12 second whippersnapper - maybe even more because there are fewer 12 second shooters keeping the sport alive than 60 second ones. 
 

You want spotters to pay attention to YOU? Then you’d better pay attention for them. 
 

Lastly, the stage/posse/match isn’t done until

the last shooters guns have been cleared and are in his/her cart. 
 

Big hugs!

Scarlett

[Hoss]

59 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Thanks @Creeker, SASS #43022 for this post. You are so right. Yesterday on the last stage (shooting FCGF) on a 5 shot target I was called for a miss. One spotter pointed out the edge to the other two and they were not persuaded. They couldn’t have “seen” the miss because the stage design/berm didn’t really allow for side view spotting. It frustrates me - but I tell myself that I need to shoot more in the center so it’s more obvious and clear….until you have a dead target. 
 

Training is a waste of time because shooters won’t go. Too proud, too busy, too indifferent. As Posse Marshal, I make similar announcement at the beginning. As TO, I look to make sure the spotters are aware the shooter is on the line and will holler at them if they are lollygagging. As a shooter, if someone is spotting and not paying attention, I will nudge them or relieve them.

 

it’s about RESPECT of my fellow shooters and the game. The 60 second shooter deserves 100% of our attention as the 12 second whippersnapper - maybe even more because there are fewer 12 second shooters keeping the sport alive than 60 second ones. 
 

You want spotters to pay attention to YOU? Then you’d better pay attention for them. 
 

Lastly, the stage/posse/match isn’t done until

the last shooters guns have been cleared and are in his/her cart. 
 

Big hugs!

Scarlett

When I’m spotting, if another spotted or TO points out an edger, 99&44/100 of the time I am going to believe them & give the shooter the hit on that target. The foundation of our scoring system is BENEFIT OF DOUBT goes to shooter. But as I’ve heard PWB say “no doubt-no benefit” 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

A Second Page??  Really??  No Kidding??  Sheesh.

[Texas Maverick]

I have not seen anything written that is my major concern. When stages are being put together they need to keep in mind places that allow a spotter to view the field. So many stages look nice from a western theme but there isn't anyplace for a spotter to stand to see the targets. This is a major problem to me. I always try to spot the first half of the stage for personal reasons. I like to watch how other shooters shoot the stage and make sure I have the pattern down pat. As a spotter another hard time is trying to spot for fast gunfighters. They can leave you scratching your head for sure. Unless I see a definite miss it is always going to be clean and hope there wasn't a procedure in their shooting. As someone else stated the shooters choice is a challenge and you really have to be looking at all the targets to make sure you know where the shooter is shooting. Spotting isn't hard but it does take concentration on your part to make sure you do your best for the shooter. I really have issues with spotters that are not paying attention and give me a miss and when asked which target and one says pistol and the other says rifle and the third says clean so I end up with 1 miss that is really questionable.

 

TM

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 hour ago, Texas Maverick said:

... I really have issues with spotters that are not paying attention and give me a miss and when asked which target and one say pistol and the other says rifle and the third says clean so I end up with 1 miss that is really questionable.

TM

You gotta remember that 30 seconds is a long time to try to remember details for some of us old dudes.  If I didn't put a finger(s) out when they are shooting I might not remember any misses by the end of the stage. 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

11 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

A Second Page??  Really??  No Kidding??  Sheesh.

It's been a good discussion, IMO.  

Interesting how different people approach spotting, and dealing with spotters as a PM. 

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

On 4/22/2023 at 3:40 AM, Sedalia Dave said:

According to the youtube comments by The OTJ, the last shot, first pistol, was a miss.

 

Hard to tell from the video but maybe the shooter hit target 4 vice target 3 with that shot.

that's what it sounds like to me......first pistol....Last Shot

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

In most states, it is a felony to abuse a corpse.  Even if it is an Expired Equine.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Apparently, you're still paying attention...  ; )

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

Y'all are arguing over training when there is a simple solution.  Paint after every shooter.  No judgement calls or guesses, there are hits or misses based on the paint on the targets.

[Texas Maverick]

29 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Y'all are arguing over training when there is a simple solution.  Paint after every shooter.  No judgement calls or guesses, there are hits or misses based on the paint on the targets.

I think someone needs to develop a target that registers a hit by turning on a light when it is hit. Would need multiple lights for those sweeps targeting the same target more than once. LOL 

 

TM

[Bo B. Fetterman]

8 minutes ago, Texas Maverick said:

I think someone needs to develop a target that registers a hit by turning on a light when it is hit. Would need multiple lights for those sweeps targeting the same target more than once. LOL 

 

TM

these exist. MagnetoSpeed markets a direct to steel version as long as target is 10" or bigger. We use them for long distance.  I should add however never tried them on really close targets with close proximity to each other. I have to circle back on that idea.

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

2 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Y'all are arguing over training when there is a simple solution.  Paint after every shooter.  No judgement calls or guesses, there are hits or misses based on the paint on the targets.

So no spotters?  No clubs around here have side berms and all have multiple posses, so that would not work here, besides using more paint and taking longer.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Ah well, a good idea, but atz gonna take a lot of paint.  The days of $1.69 cans of paint be long gone me thinks.  Oh Well.  NEXT  

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

4 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Y'all are arguing over training when there is a simple solution.  Paint after every shooter.  No judgement calls or guesses, there are hits or misses based on the paint on the targets.

Our range doesn’t have berms between stages, which means we‘d have to shut the entire range down to paint between shooters. When weather is good, we often have 45 shooters or more divided into 3 posses.
 

45 shooters x 5 stages means 225 down range calls to paint targets. Allowing an optimistic 4 min per shooter which includes staging guns, final questions/clarifications, time to shoot, clear guns, calling a down range and painting, and calling a hot range would amount to a 15 hour match at our club. 
 

That’s a lot of paint and time. 

[Bo B. Fetterman]

could probably train a system to recognize hits using cellphone cameras and microphones.

these are the lights but 200 a pop and I never tried for a super close use case, will have to give that a try sometime.

https://magnetospeed.com/products/t1000-target-hit-indicator
 

[wyliefoxEsquire]

Maybe I missed this comment, if so, please ignore.

 

What about RO I course!!

EVERYONE should take the RO I course then  AND refresher every two years.

 

I make it very clear in the course.  

The TO keeps everything SAFE and moving.

The spotters determine the winners!!!

I encourage conservation during the course especially when discussing spotting.

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

3 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

So no spotters?  No clubs around here have side berms and all have multiple posses, so that would not work here, besides using more paint and taking longer.

For those ranges with berms, it works famously.  Your situation won't work for obvious reasons I neglected to consider.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

7 hours ago, Texas Maverick said:

I think someone needs to develop a target that registers a hit by turning on a light when it is hit. Would need multiple lights for those sweeps targeting the same target more than once. LOL 

 

TM

Already developed.  We use them for long range.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

8 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Y'all are arguing over training when there is a simple solution.  Paint after every shooter.  No judgement calls or guesses, there are hits or misses based on the paint on the targets.

Then we could shoot about 2 stages before lunch.  No thanks.

[Idaho Gunslinger]

Another complicated way to do it would be to use all knockdown targets. I say complicated because you'd have to figure out how to stack knockdown targets for the stages that shoot a target multiple times. 

Or significantly limit the sweeps you can shoot. 

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

2 hours ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Then we could shoot about 2 stages before lunch.  No thanks.

IDK about that.  Other disciplines are taping targets and resetting steel while shooting 6 stages by noon.  It's a situation of all hands on deck in getting the stage reset.  

[Sedalia Dave]

Shamelessly Stolen from another thread.

 

 

 

[One Gun Jimmy]

3 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

IDK about that.  Other disciplines are taping targets and resetting steel while shooting 6 stages by noon.  It's a situation of all hands on deck in getting the stage reset.  

Seems to me if we could get the commitment of all hands on deck, we could just get people to spot how they should lol.

 

I think it's very simple,  call bad spotters out, see something say something kinda stuff.

 

I get that this is just fun for some and competition at a high level for others.

 

It's a golden rule thing to me.

 

I spot the way I want to be spotted for.

I pick brass cause I want mine picked up. 

I don't talk at the loading table unless spoken to cause some seem to be focused on the upcoming stage or loading with intent.

I don't talk to shooters on the line

I don't talk to the TO

I make my spotting calls to the best of my ability and anything wrong is an honest mistake and expect it to be taken that way as that's how I take it.

 

The rest is just a game gentleman. 

[Cypress Sun]

13 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

IDK about that.  Other disciplines are taping targets and resetting steel while shooting 6 stages by noon.  It's a situation of all hands on deck in getting the stage reset.  

 

Ain't gonna happen for 6 stages. Maybe three, tops...it doesn't matter if it's a big match or not. No one is abandoning ship, there's no battle stations and  there's no enemy at the gates. Hell, half the time, you can't even get spotters, let alone paint...you're only kidding yourself.

 

I personally like getting home before dark-thirty. 

 

Paint 'em every shooter....count me out.

 

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

14 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

IDK about that.  Other disciplines are taping targets and resetting steel while shooting 6 stages by noon.  It's a situation of all hands on deck in getting the stage reset.  

If it is working successfully at your club, that's great.  But I would just hope you would still have spotters, so they can compare what they saw/heard to the official target results to know if they are needing improvement for when they go elsewhere, as well as watching for procedurals.  Plus, that way if it turns out they get it right most of the time, you could quit painting.  Any shooter who wants fresh paint would have to donate $1 per stage (then watch those guys fight each other to be the first shooter on the stage). 

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

8 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

If it is working successfully at your club, that's great.  But I would just hope you would still have spotters, so they can compare what they saw/heard to the official target results to know if they are needing improvement for when they go elsewhere, as well as watching for procedurals.  Plus, that way if it turns out they get it right most of the time, you could quit painting.  Any shooter who wants fresh paint would have to donate $1 per stage (then watch those guys fight each other to be the first shooter on the stage). 

Actually, my local club has gone belly up so I only shoot SASS at random matches these days.  I started shooting a different discipline where the targets are cardboard and steel.  Same size squads/posses/old guys shoot higher round count stages with considerable movement in the same time frame as a CAS match while taping/painting and resetting steel between each participant so it is possible where there are berms on each stage. 

 

The biggest problem with SASS IMO, and I've been shooting it for 27 years, is the resistance to change as is evident in the dialog on this thread.

[Itchy Trigger]

1 hour ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I started shooting a different discipline where the targets are cardboard and steel. 

 

Every other discipline that I have shot were located at commercial ranges with berms between each stage. Most of the targets were cardboard and easily taped quickly by the group between shooters. Most (all?) of the metal targets were plate racks, plate trees, and/or knockdowns. It is very labor intensive setting up and breaking down all of the targets and props. on the day of the shooting and there are frequently stricter "range" rules in addition to the "discipline" rules.

 

Not saying better or worse, but a very different environment from the SASS ranges which are predominantly permanent structures on private property in this region. The targets may be moved between matches, but not very far and not on the day of the match.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Jim,

most ranges I’ve shot at do not have berms between every stage.  Not saying painting between each shooter isn’t a good idea.  I just think it’s unworkable for most CAS clubs.

[Redrider slim]

wyliefoxEsquire got it right early in this thread. RO1 and the Shooter's Handbook adequately addresses the role of spotters and TO, but you have to look at them. The RO1 course changes with new rules and guidelines. I saw RO1 a "once and done" class to get to RO2.  I was wrong and on the road to correct it.

 

[J-BAR #18287]

...or you could go to all knockdowns...

 

[Black Hills Barb]

The RO course addresses all the posse jobs and how they should be performed.  The RO/Posse Marshall is in charge of the workers and I often hear them caution workers when mistakes on their part are obvious.  Yeah, they make mistakes.  At the loading table they might forget to tell you to only load nine.  They may not catch you before you get to your gun cart rather than the unloading table.  Even the ROs sometimes make an incorrect call.  The spotters may not catch everything.  They say you learn from your mistakes.  Sometimes the shooter learns that he's ultimately responsible for loading & unloading correctly.  Sometimes the worker learns to pay better attention.  But none of us ever get the keys to the new car, nor can we sue someone for denying us of that fabulous grand prize.  
We always encourage shooters to take the RO training.  I print handbooks and try to keep a couple on hand in our clubhouse to hand out to folks that may not have access to them.  We also encourage everyone to take the refresher course or at very least stay up to date on the rule changes which we do announce.  We do all we can.  Additional training for spotters likely will not happen.  But, we'll encourage new shooters to join in on different tasks and help them along however we can.  That's the best training we can offer at our club.