Best way to solve this Ubertu Competition Rifle sight problem?

[Mysterious Stranger]

When using any handload that I am considering shooting in CAS (130g RNFP at anywhere from 993 to 1156 fps), my brand new Uberti Competition rifle in .357 Magnum wants to shoot high enough to put bullets 2 to 4 inches high versus POA at 25 yards.

 

The front sight is a gold bead on a blade, apparently secured in a dovetail by a screw, and the rear sight is a semi-buckhorn with a very small rectangular slit at the bottom. I have the rear sight set as low as it will go, and and even with the gold bead nestled at the bottom of the rectangular slit, the rifle is shooting that 2 to 4 inches high at 25 yards. Less importantly, but still annoying, the rifle also shoots about 3/4" left at 25 yards regardless of handload. There are about 17 inches between the front and rear sights.

 

Here is what the sights look like (the photos have been wildly overexposed to enhance detail):

 

Overall front and rear sights:

 

Rear sight:

 

 

Taking the small 3/4" windage error first: Note that the rear sight appears to be held in place on top of its dovetail with one screw. Is this sight intended to be adjustable for windage by loosening the screw, swinging the sight left or right a tiny amount, and then retightening?

 

Taking the elevation problem next: I obviously need to somehow be able to hold the front sight lower within the rear sight. But since it is already at the bottom of the rectangular slit, if I hold it lower I won't be able to see it! Do I need to file the bottom of the rectangular slit? To correct a 4 inch too high elevation error at 25 yards (900 inches), I would need to remove 4/900 x 17 = .076 inch, which is a LOT - but it looks like there is enough material in the sight leaf beneath the slit to take out .076 inch and still be above the raised serrated tail of the leaf. But I have no needle files, and inadequate fine motor skills to use them anyway, so I'd need to pay a gunsmith to do this or any other mod that goes beyond using a proper sized firearm screwdriver.

 

Or, it might be a LOT easier to simply replace the front sight with a taller one. The presence of the screw in the base of the front sight suggests that maybe it would not be hard to loosen the screw (with a properly sized and shaped firearm screwdriver, of a size which I might or might not have), tap the front sight (in the correct direction which is ??) out of the dovetail (using a brass flatnosed punch which I would need to buy?), tap in a new higher front sight, and tighten its securing screw?

 

Because I am also 72 years of age, i realize a more elegant solution would be to replace the rear leaf sight with a Marble Arms tang aperture sight which is adjustable. That would allow me to get the POI to POA regardless of handload used, in both elevation and windage. But here in Canada the only place I have found that sells the Marble tang sight version for the Uberti (with the correct Uberti type screws) wants $250 Canadian plus tax and shipping for the sight alone, and I would need to beyond that pay a gunsmith to remove the leaf sight, properly and exactly drill and tap the required second hole in the tang to mount it, and install it. And Midway and most other U.S. vendors are not interested in shipping to Canada.

 

This MUST be a relatively common problem in CAS. How do you more experienced guys and gals solve this kind of situation "the best way" for a quality outcome with no future regrets?

 

 

 

 

 

[Doc Fill 'Em 67797]

First, to see how high your front sight needs to be, use some masking tape to add some height to your front sight. You are making a dummy front sight. Just tape it to your barrel. Shoot the rifle with your ammo at the distance you wish and make adjustments as needed to hit where are aiming. Move your rear sight in the direction you want to move the bullet. In other words, if you are hitting to the left, move your rear sight to the left. You can also move the front sight in the opposite direction you want the bullet to go. Once you are satisfied, measure the height of your mock- up front sight and order one of the necessary height. Good luck!

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

I have a couple of rifles where I simply removed the rear sight step height adjusting ramp from the sight. It lowered the POI the 2-3" that I needed for the 25 yard sigh in. The windage can be adjusted by slightly moving either the front or rear sight.

[Pb Mark]

Exact same thing on my purchased new Cimmaron 1873 deluxe short rifle.  

 

Took the front sight off and measured it at 0.375.  Replaced it with .410-inch speed bead and back to POA up close with CAS loads.  Needed to be filed to fit the front dovetail.  

 

Looked at the situation as just one more piece of parts needing replace to make a CAS capable rifle.  Could not locate one of the front sights that allowed the bead size to be changed but would have preferred that.  

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

File down the buckhorn rear sight (unless you just LOVE that obstructed sight picture).  Deepen the sight notch and take off the ears and some of the main base of the sight blade from the top of sight.  That will fix the elevation problems.  Most fast shooters I know want a flat topped rear sight blade - faster and nothing blocking your sight picture..

 

Front sight drifts (not swings) both directions.  The small screw is a security device to hold it FIRMLY in place.   Loosen that screw, drift the front sight in the opposite direction you need your POI to go.  Tighten back down.  Use a brass rod or drift punch to not mar the front sight itself.

 

All Cowboy guns are parts kits already assembled.  Yes, sight work is needed on many of them.  Almost no cowboy gun is finely tuned and sighted in, because factory doesn't count on every buyer shooting slow, light cowboy loads.

 

Yes, the STANDARD front sight height should be 0.410" on most of the Uberti guns.  Someone picked up the wrong front sight at the factory, I'd guess.

 

AND, if you have no tools and little ability to use them, you HAD BETTER make a good friend of a gunsmith real quick if you want to shoot cowboy action.  You will be visiting him a few times for each gun you acquire.

 

good luck, GJ

[Eyesa Horg]

36 minutes ago, Doc Fill 'Em 67797 said:

Move your rear sight in the direction you want to move the bullet. In other words, if you are hitting to the left, move your rear sight to the left.

You want to move the rear sight to the right.

[Doc Fill 'Em 67797]

4 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

You want to move the rear sight to the right.

 

4 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Yes, you are correct. I didn’t say it right. 

[Mysterious Stranger]

Thanks, Guys! It sounds like the least expensive and probably easiest method to correct everything on the sights is to:

- Mark the current center of the front sight on masking tape on the barrel top

- Replace the front sight with one that is .076" higher

- Drift the new front sight into position about  0.75/900 x 17 = .014" leftward of the pre-marked line on the tape (because I want the POI to move right)

- File the huge rear sight buckhorn off until I am at the top of the slit in the rear sight, and re-blue somehow (Probably a cold blue I can buy somewhere??)

 

And yes, I am trying to contact the local gunsmith who I think is pretty good. He used to do all the armourer work for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police stationed here in Province of Alberta, Canada.

[Eyesa Horg]

1 minute ago, Mysterious Stranger said:

Probably a cold blue I can buy somewhere??)

One of those bluing pens or a black sharpie will work for the little amt. of exposed metal.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Just now, Eyesa Horg said:

One of those bluing pens or a black sharpie will work for the little amt. of exposed metal.

 

Ah, I will try the Sharpie as I already have several of them.

[Mysterious Stranger]

46 minutes ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said:

I have a couple of rifles where I simply removed the rear sight step height adjusting ramp from the sight. It lowered the POI the 2-3" that I needed for the 25 yard sigh in. The windage can be adjusted by slightly moving either the front or rear sight.

 

Good thought, but my rear sight leaf is already virtually right on top of the barrel in its lowest position. The factory apparently relieved the cneter of the leaf to accommodate the ramp.

[Texas Jack Black]

  Will you be shooting SASS or are you wanting a cowboy Sniper rifle ?

[Pb Mark]

Cimmaron sells a competition rear sight that fits for $19.76.  It is in stock and is flat.

[Pb Mark]

Well maybe not in stock, allowed for add to cart though.  Flat rear factory sights are available through if you simply want to have the sights changed. 

[Griff]

Absolutely ignore all the above!  On a CAS target if you aim in the center, you're going to hit it.  Everything else is just so much hot air and BS.  If you take more time to align your sights in a CAS match, you're shooting slower than I do.  Put the front sight on the middle of the target and pull the trigger.   Move to the next, repeat... let the spotters worry about the "dings" etc.  Your job is the put the front sight on the target, pull the trigger, move to the next... repeat.  Nothing else matters.  You're getting so caught up in the minutia of shooting, that you're likely not to actually enjoy the shooting of a match.  I've got several CAS rifles that have never, ever faced a paper target.  And they're just as accurate as needs be.

[Mysterious Stranger]

2 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

  Will you be shooting SASS or are you wanting a cowboy Sniper rifle ?

 

With this rifle, SASS only. I may add a Pedersoli Rolling Block or Sharps later! But, I don't have to want to do any "math" when sighting in for a shot, because in the fast pace of SASS matches, making things simpler is good.

[Mysterious Stranger]

2 hours ago, Pb Mark said:

Cimmaron sells a competition rear sight that fits for $19.76.  It is in stock and is flat.

 

Hey, that's a much easier solution than filing the buckhorns! I wonder though if its slit is any lower than the sight I have! I'll have to see if I can find a measurement for it somewhere.

[Mysterious Stranger]

2 hours ago, Pb Mark said:

Well maybe not in stock, allowed for add to cart though.  Flat rear factory sights are available through if you simply want to have the sights changed. 

 

What I like about this is the $20US plus shipping and the avoidance of having to learn how to do perfect filing with a file on the very first time I try filing a sight! 

[Mysterious Stranger]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

Absolutely ignore all the above!  On a CAS target if you aim in the center, you're going to hit it.  Everything else is just so much hot air and BS.  If you take more time to align your sights in a CAS match, you're shooting slower than I do.  Put the front sight on the middle of the target and pull the trigger.   Move to the next, repeat... let the spotters worry about the "dings" etc.  Your job is the put the front sight on the target, pull the trigger, move to the next... repeat.  Nothing else matters.  You're getting so caught up in the minutia of shooting, that you're likely not to actually enjoy the shooting of a match.  I've got several CAS rifles that have never, ever faced a paper target.  And they're just as accurate as needs be.

 

Yeah I know, but minute of pie plate accuracy is not satisfying. Again I'll say it: Only accurate firearms are interesting to me. 

[Preacherman]

Just learn to "aim" at 6 o'clock. You see more of the target and will not miss. "Problem" solved.

[Mysterious Stranger]

1 minute ago, Preacherman said:

Just learn to "aim" at 6 o'clock. You see more of the target and will not miss. "Problem" solved.

 

Problem NOT solved. That would work with the rifle, but NOT with the revolvers, which shoot way LOW. I don't want to have to ask myself on each shot string, "What is the windage and elevation error on THIS specific firearm?." In a fast paced shooting sport like CAS, you don't have time to waste on stuff like that.

[Pb Mark]

Well guess my new short rifle fits the definition of CAS sniper rifle.  From golf balls at 50 yards, little novelty targets, 200-yard steel, indoor range fast tight groups, game animals etc.  They can be setup to do it all.  Personally, the USPSA folks in my area are about to play with their first properly setup 1873 rifle - mine.  They are gonna love it!

 

If a single action pistol shoots straight, but low, that can be a good thing.  To file or not to file the front sight?  Again, depends on what all you plan to do with your firearms.  

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

I don't even notice my rear sights when I'm shooting a SASS match, neither pistols nor rifle.  I put monster big sights on both pistols and the rifle and that's all I see.  At the SC match my son pointed out that my shogun bead had fallen off at some point.  I never noticed and didn't have any makeups. 

[Mysterious Stranger]

4 minutes ago, Pb Mark said:

Well guess my new short rifle fits the definition of CAS sniper rifle.  From golf balls at 50 yards, little novelty targets, 200-yard steel, indoor range fast tight groups, game animals etc.  They can be setup to do it all.  Personally, the USPSA folks in my area are about to play with their first properly setup 1873 rifle - mine!  They are gonna love it!

 

If a single action pistol shoots straight, but low, that can be a good thing.  To file or not to file the front sight?  Again, depends on what all you plan to do with your firearms.  

 

 

 

Hey, both of my revolvers shoot low, AND left, AND each by a different amount of course. Not satisfactory. 

[Mysterious Stranger]

4 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I don't even notice my rear sights when I'm shooting a SASS match, neither pistols nor rifle.  I put monster big sights on both pistols and the rifle and that's all I see.  At the SC match my son pointed out that my shogun bead had fallen off at some point.  I never noticed and didn't have any makeups. 

 

I do like the "bigger is better" concept. The tiny sights on both the revolvers and the rifle are pretty hard on 72 year old eyes.

[Pb Mark]

Very green in the CAS world, but not other shooting sports.  Have never touched the sights on a handgun for another person without reverting to the attached pie chart and carefully examining the owner's shooting techniques.

 

For CAS, I just cover the target with the cylinder.  

 

Bet you own two Uberti revolvers or real Colts?  

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

3 hours ago, Mysterious Stranger said:

Yeah I know, but minute of pie plate accuracy is not satisfying. Again I'll say it: Only accurate firearms are interesting to me.

 

 

It is Easter Sunday, a lot of stores and restaurants are closed and I am bored.  So even though this will not satisfy your stringent "accuracy" requirements I went out in the shop and took a few quick photos.  I did not want to waste time setting up lights, etc., so the focus and depth of field is not perfect on these quick shots.  First you can save yourself a whole lot of money and pain and strain by simply going to your local hardware store and buying a 1/8" (.125) round needle file or if you cannot find one of those buy a chainsaw sharpening file.  (These are 5/32", .156")  

 

 

I could not find a size for your front sight bead and your photo is not very clear.  If it is much smaller than .125" you should consider replacing it.  Accurate alignment of sights is not the priority is CAS.  Rapid pick-up of the front sight is.  The standard front marbles site is 1/16" (062).  The "large" Marbles bead is 3/32" (.093).  Most shooters replace the front sight with a bigger bead.  You can do this by pulling the small bead out and machining a large one or buy one of the slip on front beads.  (.093 and the left, .156 on the right.)

 

 

 

 

After you have a front sight you can see take your file and widen the rear sight groove.  It is not difficult as the slot will guide the file.  Top photo is the stock Uberti sight ground flat and a new groove filed in it.

 

 

 

 

Generally the screw in the sights does not retain the sight.  They are a drift fit.  Trying to improve a tiny error in windage can be difficult as the way the sight is adjusted is to drive it left or right.  Not a precise operation.

 

 

If you buy a replacement rear sight chances are that it will not drive into the barrel.  All the common sights are a "nominal" 3/8".  In practice the barrel dovetails and sight dovetails vary a bit and many will require fitting to be able to drive the sights in without damaging them.

 

[John Kloehr]

2 hours ago, Pb Mark said:

For CAS, I just cover the target with the cylinder. 

For this sport, I find the following target sufficient for diagnostics:

 

[Mysterious Stranger]

2 hours ago, Pb Mark said:

Very green in the CAS world, but not other shooting sports.  Have never touched the sights on a handgun for another person without reverting to the attached pie chart and carefully examining the owner's shooting techniques.

 

For CAS, I just cover the target with the cylinder.  

 

Bet you own two Uberti revolvers or real Colts?  

 

Yes, I too am familiar with that chart. But the laser borescope says both of the Cimarron (Uberti) revolvers are guilty of a windage error in the sights themselves. I'll work on those once I have a handload that they both like or can at least agree on as acceptable to them.

[Eyesa Horg]

MS, just don't forget that CAS is not Bullseye. At CAS distances your POI is not off by much. In a match you will not have time for careful sight alignment for each shot and there is plenty of room for error. Remember there is no target too close or too big to miss. Good luck in your endeavors with sights, but don't go overboard unless you will be using them for something else where accuracy is actually critical. Your misalignments at 25 yards for the pistols will be around 20% of that at CAS distance. JMHO

[Mysterious Stranger]

43 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

 

It is Easter Sunday, a lot of stores and restaurants are closed and I am bored.  So even though this will not satisfy your stringent "accuracy" requirements I went out in the shop and took a few quick photos.  I did not want to waste time setting up lights, etc., so the focus and depth of field is not perfect on these quick shots.  First you can save yourself a whole lot of money and pain and strain by simply going to your local hardware store and buying a 1/8" (.125) round needle file or if you cannot find one of those buy a chainsaw sharpening file.  (These are 5/32", .156")  

 

 

I could not find a size for your front sight bead and your photo is not very clear.  If it is much smaller than .125" you should consider replacing it.  Accurate alignment of sights is not the priority is CAS.  Rapid pick-up of the front sight is.  The standard front marbles site is 1/16" (062).  The "large" Marbles bead is 3/32" (.093).  Most shooters replace the front sight with a bigger bead.  You can do this by pulling the small bead out and machining a large one or buy one of the slip on front beads.  (.093 and the left, .156 on the right.)

 

 

 

 

After you have a front sight you can see take your file and widen the rear sight groove.  It is not difficult as the slot will guide the file.  Top photo is the stock Uberti sight ground flat and a new groove filed in it.

 

 

 

 

Generally the screw in the sights does not retain the sight.  They are a drift fit.  Trying to improve a tiny error in windage can be difficult as the way the sight is adjusted is to drive it left or right.  Not a precise operation.

 

 

If you buy a replacement rear sight chances are that it will not drive into the barrel.  All the common sights are a "nominal" 3/8".  In practice the barrel dovetails and sight dovetails vary a bit and many will require fitting to be able to drive the sights in without damaging them.

 

 

Thank-you, Pettifogger. I did not know you can buy slip-on larger beads. I like that solution a LOT. The needle files also sound like a sensible solution, especially since you say a hardware store would have them.. The round shape of the right size of needle file would file a nice semrcircle in the rear sight that could be just a set amount larger in radius than the front bead. The bead should then be easy and quick to "center" in the rear semicircle.

 

Questions:

 

1. Do I need to go anywhere special for the slip-on beads? (I don't imagine a hardware store would have them, but would many firearm retailers have them or do I need a specialized source? I'm asking because I live in Canada and have already found that many (most?) U.S. firearms retailers won't ship to Canada because a Canadian technically, by Canadian law, apparently needs to have a firearms parts import license if the part is viewed by Canada customs as primarily a firearms-related item. (This is a Federal Government initiative to help protect us Canadian citizen shooters from those troublemaking "guns" that only gang members and criminals should be allowed to have)

 

2. Is the slip-on bead glued in place (like the SureHit slip-on front sight) or merely an interference fit onto the existing sight?

 

3. Do I literally measure the diameter of the existing bead to determine what size of bead to buy? (i.e. Buy a bead that has an ID that is an interference or glue fit to the current bead?). My current bead is definitely smaller than .125". My Mitutoyo digital mircrometer says it is .0978", so I assume that means a 3/32" in Cowboy speak.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

If you revolvers shoot low, just get used to a sight picture with the front blade sticking up higher than the rear notch.  It is much quicker, too.  Same with the rifle.  My rear sights vary from flat to full buckhorn.  I don't bury the bead in the notch on any of them, but sort of float it above.  Again, much faster.  I shoot six or seven different pairs of revolvers and six rifles and haven't shot paper in 20 years.   Remember, this is CAS we are talking about.  20 years ago, accuracy was important.  Today, it is not.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Several places sell them.  Here are a couple.  I do not know about the great White Frozen North.

 

https://the-online-outpost-licensing-corporation.myshopify.com/products/sure-hit-brass-slip-on-rifle-sight-slick-magic

 

https://www.longhunt.com/storelh/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=272

[Mysterious Stranger]

3 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

If you revolvers shoot low, just get used to a sight picture with the front blade sticking up higher than the rear notch.  It is much quicker, too.  Same with the rifle.  My rear sights vary from flat to full buckhorn.  I don't bury the bead in the notch on any of them, but sort of float it above.  Again, much faster.  I shoot six or seven different pairs of revolvers and six rifles and haven't shot paper in 20 years.   Remember, this is CAS we are talking about.  20 years ago, accuracy was important.  Today, it is not.

 

Holding the front sight higher is what I have been doing on the revolvers. That works there, although the placement of groups varies on the target when doing ladder testing for handloading, because even a tiny misjudgment in height of the front sight above the rear sight slot makes a BIG difference at 25 yards when testing the loads at that range. I am testing at that range in order to accentuate any differences between the loads being compared. But, I am dong the "hold front sight higher" thing now while I wait for my SureHit larger brass "slip-ons" to arrive from The U.S. I actually have to do that to keep the groups on the 8.5" high target paper.

 

But for the rear sight on the RIFLE, I need to hold the front sight bead LOWER, and I am already at the bottom of the slot in the rear sight! So, I am going to need to do what Pettifogger suggested, and file the rear sight slot lower.

[Mysterious Stranger]

13 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Several places sell them.  Here are a couple.  I do not know about the great White Frozen North.

 

https://the-online-outpost-licensing-corporation.myshopify.com/products/sure-hit-brass-slip-on-rifle-sight-slick-magic

 

https://www.longhunt.com/storelh/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=272

 

Thanks, Pettifogger! Now that I know what the retailers call them, I can check Canada as well as these two places. If one of the places has them in stock, I can ask about whether they will ship to Canada or not. Sometimes, even the ones who normally won't, will do it if you ask nicely. That is how I got the slip-on SureHot sight sleeves sent to me. They normally do not ship to Canada, but I offered to pay them any extra they needed to cover the extra postage and other costs.

 

And, it looks like the description for these says that you simply "tap them on" over the entire sight body, and they supposedly fit the 1866, the 1873, and also the Marlin rifles. That sounds about as simple as it gets!