If ATF ever shows up at your front door, what not to do and do.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

 

[Badlands Bob #61228]

Good advise.  They may be smiling and friendly but they are not there to do you any favors.

[Eyesa Horg]

If you do refuse them and want to call your attorney, where do you on such short notice find such attorney? Also, what stops them from setting up camp on your lawn and getting a warrant? You know there will be a judge that will sign off on the warrant. The fact they are there will be good enough for most judges and the ATF will have some story as why they need it.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Actually Eyes, "they" can't set up camp on your front lawn.  Tell them to leave.  If they don't leave, they can be trespassed and arrested.  Camping out on the street is perfectly acceptable.  If "They" and that's any "They" show up with a warrant, they may march right in and put you out on the lawn while they search.  An attorney can't stop that.

 

If on the other hand, "they" find what they are looking for, and you are arrested, an attorney can come in handy.

[Pat Riot]

Interesting that the ATF showed up at the residence in the state of Delaware. I haven’t heard of this elsewhere, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t happening or hasn’t happened elsewhere. It’s interesting because Delaware is the President’s home state. Coincidence? It may be the head of the ATF in that area wants brownie points. 

 

If that occurred at my home I would call my USCCA hotline and ask to speak with an attorney. I would be okay with bringing the firearms in question to the door to show them if I got my new attorney to say it’s okay. I would not invite them in. I would be polite and cooperative within my rights. 
I do not look at the officers of the police or the ATF as my enemies. They are doing a job. I also do not see them as friends. I do look at them doing their job as a reason to have legal counsel in a situation like this or any other that might involve liability or the possibility of arrest or forfeiture of my possessions. 
 

I have known for years that buying more than one gun at the same time raises a flag. That is why I don’t do it. 

[Buckshot Bob]

I go off of the advice of many attorneys and my little sister who’s a lawyer and used to be a prosecutor. No warrant no search. If it was easy for them to get a warrant they probably would have shown up with one. She’s told me numerous times if you are pulled over and they want to search your car always deny even if you know you have nothing in the car, and if you have to sit on the side of the road for 6 hours so be it. And this was coming from someone who was a prosecutor not a defense attorney. Luckily I’ve never been in the situation I find avoidance is a great policy for violent or police/government interaction. 

[Chantry]

1 hour ago, Buckshot Bob said:

I go off of the advice of many attorneys and my little sister who’s a lawyer and used to be a prosecutor. No warrant no search. If it was easy for them to get a warrant they probably would have shown up with one. She’s told me numerous times if you are pulled over and they want to search your car always deny even if you know you have nothing in the car, and if you have to sit on the side of the road for 6 hours so be it. And this was coming from someone who was a prosecutor not a defense attorney. Luckily I’ve never been in the situation I find avoidance is a great policy for violent or police/government interaction. 

 

Per the SCOTUS decision at the link: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/13-9972  "held that the tolerable duration of a traffic stop is only as long as is necessary to complete the tasks associated with the traffic infraction. Such tasks include checking the driver’s license, determining whether there are outstanding warrants against the driver, checking the car’s registration and proof of insurance, and ultimately issuing a traffic ticket when necessary."

 

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.  I merely post this as a FYI

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

2 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

If you do refuse them and want to call your attorney, where do you on such short notice find such attorney? Also, what stops them from setting up camp on your lawn and getting a warrant? You know there will be a judge that will sign off on the warrant. The fact they are there will be good enough for most judges and the ATF will have some story as why they need it.

So your saying you would allow them into your home without a warrant and give up your rights?  A warrant has to show what they are looking for in their search without one, you would be at their mercy in anything they may discover. Then you well may need an Attorney.

[bgavin]

What are you *really* going to do when ATF cop(s) come to your door with a court order to confiscate your guns?

• Shoot the Cop
• Explain the 2nd Amendment
• Refuse Entry on 2nd Amendment grounds
• Stand by helplessly

#1 - your rectum will be married to your cell mate for eternity
#2 - will get you cuffed and placed in the police cruiser
#3 - will get you beaten up, cuffed, and placed in the cruiser
#4 - helplessly watch them ransack and confiscate your gun safe

Law enforcement and the courts will systematically destroy you if you refuse to surrender your guns to a court order.

Which of your neighbors and friends will bring weapons and stand by you?  

Which of them is willing to be financially destroyed, made destitute and homeless by the courts?

The recent documentary on the Waco standoff shows exactly what will happen.

 

[sassnetguy50]

Correction:  the 3310.4 is for "multiple sales" aka taking possession of more than one handgun within one week.  It is not simply multiple firearms purchased or transferred at the same time.  Also, the form is kept on record at the shop, sent to the bureaucrats, and sent to the local county law enforcement. 

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

 Decades ago when the NRA was strong and its membership was strong Politicians would not touch the 2nd Amendment, OH, they would talk, but that was it because they wanted to be re-elected. But with the fallout, negative words and press and a weaking of the NRA by loss of members and divided, there really isn't the strength there once was. Even a local politician who lives down the block and a discussion at a cookout with several friends has said that gunowners are their worst enemies. We vote people in who in the past want gun control thinking it will never happen. We have left the NRA with less strength and hoping a 2nd party will be stronger. Many gun owner can't get organized as so many groups do that want changes and their words be heard. They march on Washington and let their official their stance. How many of us gun owners do that? I know for certain at least 3 shooters in my area, yes, they are CAS, that vote Liberal on their Ballot every election and are not NRA members nor any other group. When they come for them, we'll probable just stand around and watch and wonder if we are next.

[bgavin]

It is just my opinion, but the NRA left me... not the other way around.

I find people are Leftists today for a few reasons:

• Sex: infidelity, promiscuity, homosexuality, abortion
• Drugs: personal or family user
• Socialism: Big Government to run our lives
• Hive-Mind Hate: Orange Man Bad

Leftists absolve themselves or their families for their sexual issues.

Those who are themselves drug users, or condone drug use in their families, are usually Leftists.

Some people favor Socialism because they feel good helping their fellow man, using somebody else's money.

Or, they feel good because they get handouts from somebody else's money.

Socialists are Democrats:

• Need to feel good about themselves
• Need to join with the hive mind
• Cringe/Fringe need to join a tribe
• Strong desire to help his fellow man, using your money
• Feel guilt for acts committed by people long dead
• Belief in fixing the "wrong turn", i.e. environmentalism
• Society works for a common goal overseen by the State
• The individual is part of a larger collective whole
• Belief in experts who can socially remake our society
• Individual liberties are subservient to the collective good
• Uses Multiculturalism to break down tribal boundaries
• Big government runs every aspect of your life (Marxists/Communists)

IMO, these are the people who will confiscate our guns and subjugate us, same as every other communist regime has done around the world.
 

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

15 minutes ago, bgavin said:

It is just my opinion, but the NRA left me... not the other way around.

I find people are Leftists today for a few reasons:

• Sex: infidelity, promiscuity, homosexuality, abortion
• Drugs: personal or family user
• Socialism: Big Government to run our lives
• Hive-Mind Hate: Orange Man Bad

Leftists absolve themselves or their families for their sexual issues.

Those who are themselves drug users, or condone drug use in their families, are usually Leftists.

Some people favor Socialism because they feel good helping their fellow man, using somebody else's money.

Or, they feel good because they get handouts from somebody else's money.

Socialists are Democrats:

• Need to feel good about themselves
• Need to join with the hive mind
• Cringe/Fringe need to join a tribe
• Strong desire to help his fellow man, using your money
• Feel guilt for acts committed by people long dead
• Belief in fixing the "wrong turn", i.e. environmentalism
• Society works for a common goal overseen by the State
• The individual is part of a larger collective whole
• Belief in experts who can socially remake our society
• Individual liberties are subservient to the collective good
• Uses Multiculturalism to break down tribal boundaries
• Big government runs every aspect of your life (Marxists/Communists)

IMO, these are the people who will confiscate our guns and subjugate us, same as every other communist regime has done around the world.
 

You lost me now.

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

So your saying you would allow them into your home without a warrant and give up your rights?  A warrant has to show what they are looking for in their search without one, you would be at their mercy in anything they may discover. Then you well may need an Attorney.

No, not saying that at all. Just wondering what happens when you refuse them? Thinking of the time my home was burglarized, when the State troopers arrived, they didn't even ask to come in. As soon as I opened the door and stepped out to greet them, they both walked right around me and into the house. Then one  blocked/talked to me and the other helped himself to walking around in the house! So I figure telling the ATF  I want to call an attorney is likely not going to go well. In my experience with Police and being the victim, they like intimidating and keeping their hand on their firearm! If ATF shows up out of the blue, they probably aren't stopping by to chat and have coffee. Just like the video, they kept closing in on the guy.

[Rip Snorter]

I'd get on the phone with the Sheriff's Office and stay on with the dispatcher so the conversation and my questions  could be  recorded.  Sheriffs generally don't take kindly to rogue operations when they have not been notified.

[bgavin]

This exact scenario happened to my next door neighbor.

His ex-wife filed an "I'm afraid of him" charge against him.
The cops showed up, confiscated EVERYTHING in his gun safes.

It took months of legal wrangling to get his guns returned.
None of the ammo ever came back.
None at all.

As I mentioned above, the law and courts will literally bankrupt you if you try to defend yourself.

I have to make a choice between losing my guns, or everything I own and my wife out on the street... I will surrender the guns.
 

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

8 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

No, not saying that at all. Just wondering what happens when you refuse them? Thinking of the time my home was burglarized, when the State troopers arrived, they didn't even ask to come in. As soon as I opened the door and stepped out to greet them, they both walked right around me and into the house. Then one  blocked/talked to me and the other helped himself to walking around in the house! So I figure telling the ATF  I want to call an attorney is likely not going to go well. In my experience with Police and being the victim, they like intimidating and keeping their hand on their firearm! If ATF shows up out of the blue, they probably aren't stopping by to chat and have coffee. Just like the video, they kept closing in on the guy.

Okay, understand better. In mid 70s our house was burglarized also. 11 firearms taken, coins, etc. They were captured 2 weeks later on a tip and was able to recover 8 of them held by State Police in Ohio which I picked up with no problem and told were possible 2 other were at a run down Pawn Shop and they went with me there and we recovered not 2 but the 3rd one also. Pawn Shop Owner was arrested for handling stolen goods which they had been keeping an eye on his business and now had proof with the items and one of the burglars fessed up. Yes they entered the house took my inventory and pictures and fingerprints at entry. The Ohio State Police were courteous and even took me and wife to eat at a restaurant since we had driven all night from Morris, IL. to get there. As to coins, since there was no way to tell from the Pawn Shop which were ours, which were legally purchased etc. The insurance company fairly settled with us. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Rule #1, STFU!

When in doubt, READ RULE #1!!

[Eyesa Horg]

9 minutes ago, bgavin said:

This exact scenario happened to my next door neighbor.

His ex-wife filed an "I'm afraid of him" charge against him.
The cops showed up, confiscated EVERYTHING in his gun safes.

It took months of legal wrangling to get his guns returned.
None of the ammo ever came back.
None at all.

As I mentioned above, the law and courts will literally bankrupt you if you try to defend yourself.

I have to make a choice between losing my guns, or everything I own and my wife out on the street... I will surrender the guns.
 

A lifelong friend of Ellie's, her husband drove from Connecticut to Florida and murdered her ex. On the way back north he got pulled over committed suicide. When the troopers came to inform her of her husband's death, they confiscated his, hers and her sons guns. Never to be seen again. Her attorney told it would cost more to get them back than they were worth. Why take them in the first place, her husband's dead and they have the murder & suicide weapon? Cuz they can! Nobody can afford to stick up for their rights.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

A lifelong friend of Ellie's, her husband drove from Connecticut to Florida and murdered her ex. On the way back north he got pulled over committed suicide. When the troopers came to inform her of her husband's death, they confiscated his, hers and her sons guns. Never to be seen again. Her attorney told it would cost more to get them back than they were worth. Why take them in the first place, her husband's dead and they have the murder & suicide weapon? Cuz they can! Nobody can afford to stick up for their rights.

Do you have a link to this story.

Was a warrant served?

[Buckshot Bob]

1 hour ago, Chantry said:

 

Per the SCOTUS decision at the link: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/13-9972  "held that the tolerable duration of a traffic stop is only as long as is necessary to complete the tasks associated with the traffic infraction. Such tasks include checking the driver’s license, determining whether there are outstanding warrants against the driver, checking the car’s registration and proof of insurance, and ultimately issuing a traffic ticket when necessary."

 

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.  I merely post this as a FYI

And I’m guessing that works once you are in the courtroom. But from what I’ve seen getting antagonistic with law enforcement isn’t going to get you anywhere even if you know for a fact they are in the wrong. I’m guessing if they are attempting to obtain a warrant that’s a legitimate reason to hold you. In these situations I think you just need to be patient and polite 

[Eyesa Horg]

1 minute ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Do you have a link to this story.

Was a warrant served?

Don't know on the warrant. It was on the news though. He was from Vernon, Ct. and the murder was on the Keys. Suicide in Virginia IIRC. In 2005

[MizPete]

ATF showed up at my door on a regular basis.  They were my next-door neighbor at work.  When they confiscated firearms, they had to have a non-ATF person sign off on them & when they learned I had a liking for classic firearms they brought them to me.  We just about lost our new accountant the day I had gone to lunch & this big black guy walked in on her with a rifle under each arm.  But they were good neighbors.  Once, we had a crew of people in business suits going around the offices in the building stealing women's purses.  (Where do women in offices keep their purses?  Right-hand lower desk drawer.  It's a universal truth.)  An agent caught one of them & wrestled him to the ground in our parking lot.  I found my wallet in the bushes.

[J.D. Daily]

1 hour ago, bgavin said:

This exact scenario happened to my next door neighbor.

His ex-wife filed an "I'm afraid of him" charge against him.
The cops showed up, confiscated EVERYTHING in his gun safes.

It took months of legal wrangling to get his guns returned.
None of the ammo ever came back.
None at all.

As I mentioned above, the law and courts will literally bankrupt you if you try to defend yourself.

I have to make a choice between losing my guns, or everything I own and my wife out on the street... I will surrender the guns.
 

This is the reason a coworker who collected many evil black rifles who had a fellow collector stored some of theirs in the other's safes.  He moved his substantial collection of firearms & ammo from Kalifornia to Utah last year when he retired. 

[Chantry]

1 hour ago, Buckshot Bob said:

And I’m guessing that works once you are in the courtroom. But from what I’ve seen getting antagonistic with law enforcement isn’t going to get you anywhere even if you know for a fact they are in the wrong. I’m guessing if they are attempting to obtain a warrant that’s a legitimate reason to hold you. In these situations I think you just need to be patient and polite 

Agreed.  Getting into a pissing contest with, for lack of better word, "street level" law enforcement is always a bad idea

[The Shoer 27979]

If they did not have a warrent, I would tell them to leave at that point they are trespassing. If they ask me questions I would simply  say 5th and 6th  amendment and nothing else. And technically  if they put there foot in the door that is violating the 4th amendment.

I don't care if you believe me, I have a lawyer on retainer. That specializes  in gun law and civil/constitutional law

[Trigger Mike]

a neighbor got shot by a tenant on his on home yard and shot back but missed but the police demanded to go inside his safe to confiscate every gun.  the neighbor nd his grandson run a gun store and told the cops, NO!  you have the gun he used and you don't need any other, especially since you don't have a warrant.  the cops left without going in the safe.  

[Pat Riot]

All this is the reason I joined the United States Concealed Carry Association. One phone call and I automatically have an attorney, bail, legal support for the duration of my case if there’s a case. I bought their best package. 
 

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/

[The Shoer 27979]

That's why I have a lawyer on retainer. It is a different type group then the one you are in Pat. They have a good success  rate 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Well, without reading all the above post, as an FFL holder, I would probably invite them in and ask if they

would like a cold Pepsi and/or a piece of cherry pie.   Its just that simple.

 

..........Widder

 

[Tell Sackett SASS 18436]

22 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

 

I do not look at the officers of the police or the ATF as my enemies. They are doing a job. I also do not see them as friends. I do look at them doing their job as a reason to have legal counsel in a situation like this or any other that might involve liability or the possibility of arrest or forfeiture of my possessions. 

I look at the Gestapo as “just doing a job”!!

Thats about the worst reason I can think of for violating the Constitution!

[Pat Riot]

1 hour ago, Tell Sackett SASS 18436 said:

I look at the Gestapo as “just doing a job”!!

Thats about the worst reason I can think of for violating the Constitution!

I stick by what I said. If you don’t like it that’s not my problem. 

[Waxahachie Kid #17017 L]

This may, or may not, have changed, but back in the 1990's, I had an F.F.L. license, because we were told if anyone bought, or sold, a firearm, on any kind of regular basis, then we better have an F.F.L. license. According to the rules, back then, the address of the F.F.L. license was subject to the A.T.F. coming to your "shop", and taking an inventory, regardless if they had a search warrant, or not. My "shop" was in a semi-detached garage, which could be construed to be a part of my home, which made my home subject to a search, without a warrant. 

I no longer have an F.F.L. license, and I have subsequently moved, so then I would respectfully do, as the lawyer above, said to do. 

I am a member of the "Texas Law Shield" organization, and it offers legal representation if I am ever in a situation that may require a lawyer. So far, I have not needed their services...thankfully. The a.t.f., and many others, will try and get as much information out of you, as they can, and do it with much practiced skill, on their part. It is best to just be quiet, or state you need to confer with your attorney, before answering any questions. I imagine there are a lot of folks in jail, right now, that are innocent, who just talked too much, and circumstantial evidence was used against them. 

Be polite, but keep yer trap shut. Even a fish would not get into trouble, if he kept his mouth shut.

 

[The Shoer 27979]

2 hours ago, Waxahachie Kid #17017 L said:

This may, or may not, have changed, but back in the 1990's, I had an F.F.L. license, because we were told if anyone bought, or sold, a firearm, on any kind of regular basis, then we better have an F.F.L. license. According to the rules, back then, the address of the F.F.L. license was subject to the A.T.F. coming to your "shop", and taking an inventory, regardless if they had a search warrant, or not. My "shop" was in a semi-detached garage, which could be construed to be a part of my home, which made my home subject to a search, without a warrant. 

I no longer have an F.F.L. license, and I have subsequently moved, so then I would respectfully do, as the lawyer above, said to do. 

I am a member of the "Texas Law Shield" organization, and it offers legal representation if I am ever in a situation that may require a lawyer. So far, I have not needed their services...thankfully. The a.t.f., and many others, will try and get as much information out of you, as they can, and do it with much practiced skill, on their part. It is best to just be quiet, or state you need to confer with your attorney, before answering any questions. I imagine there are a lot of folks in jail, right now, that are innocent, who just talked too much, and circumstantial evidence was used against them. 

Be polite, but keep yer trap shut. Even a fish would not get into trouble, if he kept his mouth shut. It is the same with a CDL you give up a right when you get your license  or are at work

 

 

[J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE]

Asset your rights politely but firmly.  Have a lawyer on retainer and belong to an organization that will assist in your defense.     And don't have illegal stuff in your house/possession.